10 REAL writing advice without sugar-coating

CarltonIsaac 2022-12-27 08:28:28 UTC #35

I'd advise you alter your Topic header so it won't be as misleading. Cheers.

Hayka 2022-12-27 08:33:40 UTC #36

oh wow so many feisty comments...you guys sure are energetic today. Did something good happen?
so what was your experiences with writing? I'm mostly curious about my third point.
if you want to do smth and someone called it a ripoff, what would be your reaction?

Hayka 2022-12-27 08:39:55 UTC #37

hmmm? no
that was actual honest advice. If you don't like it doesnt mean I should adapt what I say to your taste. Sorry if my advice is trash. Its MY advice. Just like how any other authers advice won't work on other people because its a personal thing THEY did, mine is also mine. if you don't like smth then simply do not do it ://
what exactly will "me changing header" do here?

DasIstWunderblyat 2022-12-27 08:51:27 UTC #38

Yes try to rewrite and do a different approach, ot might give you a new perspective and even develop into something different.

I think if we were somehow able to transfer what pictured in our minds faithfully into readers', many will still cherrypick parts they like the most or getting the things wrong. That is a bold choice if someone want to police what readers should think or do, but it may not go well.

NellieVP318 2022-12-27 13:17:55 UTC #39

While I agree with some of the advice like 1 and 2, I do think the rest of the advice can be subjective according to each person. This is more of a each to it's own advice guideline.

The whole representation thing is mixed bag. I get there is a lot of bad writing surrounding representation. But if I learn one thing is that you can't really control what readers ship. That's why I got into the mindset that any readers can ship your characters whether you like it or not. I don't care much if people ship my characters for whatever reason, but that's just me. It's apart of the whole sharing your story and putting it out there with the whole culture around fandoms and fanfiction in all.

Don't get me wrong, it does get annoying when people focus on around shipping whether it is LGBTQ or not. I would take it to allow the whole shipping thing to happen just as long your readers don't demand for your story to focus around that. While I have some LGBTQ characters, I have yet to make a novel focused around them since in the current story. They don't have a huge focus enough for me to justify tagging the story.

Hayka 2022-12-27 13:35:28 UTC #40

that's exactly me. It wasn't an LGBT novel. it was a mystery novel with 2 girls that end up together.

hmmm...what about point 3? have you experienced it before?

NellieVP318 2022-12-27 13:46:31 UTC #41

Point 3? I can see the point about the ripoff thing. I used to write a story about magical girls because when I was younger, I was into the magical girls genre. That genre has have a lot of 'ripoff' but each magical girl story was different on its own way. But I know people get bored of rip offs a lot.

Therefore, I totally get people complaints about things being unoriginal as I used to be into that mindset with another long time writer friend of mine. We used to get frustrated about any of our stories or characters having the same ideas as other creators. We really wanted our creations to be special so when you have someone that almost the same idea or concept as you. It does get frustrating because you really want to stand out from the crowd. Nowadays, I'm mostly over that because it's literally impossible to have a complete original story or character these days.

So my whole point is writers should just focus on the execution of the story rather than trying to be "original". But I know the aim of trying to original is a mindset that it's hard for any creative to get out of. There is no shame for at least trying to stand out from the works a bit so I don't blame these creators for trying to be original.

Freemints30 2022-12-27 16:40:33 UTC #42

Then I wouldn't call that harsh or decent writing advise. Like at all. I would call it more crippling yourself in an attempt at. ... Something. Reddit upvotes maybe?

Maybe.. the huge plot twist that changed everything in your most popular series you deleted... Wasnt that good and the cute girls part was the better written part. If that's literally all what the commenters was talking about. Food for thought.

Honestly its more immature especially dropping an entire work cus people """didnt focus on what you like""". Thats all series, fans like to focus on cute stuff. Straight ships, friendships, characters that they can see themselves in POCs, LGBTQ, disabled ect. Thats every series if you cant handle that then... you may not be cut out as a creator or a bigger creator

Honestly this less a writing advise thread and more "here's my takes" i dont recommend people following half of these if they are serious about writing.

Forced diversity isnt a thing...

abigaillmartin 2022-12-27 17:06:35 UTC #43

Why do people assume it’s just forced diversity when they see LGBTQ, people of color and such?

BoomerZ 2022-12-27 17:40:18 UTC #44

Forced diversity is diversity that doesn't fit the situation.

bloodstained.skies 2022-12-27 18:39:05 UTC #45

FINALLY! FINALLY someone posted something that makes sense. You said everything I was saying for years. 100% agree. I suppose this will p*ss off many people but people just hate hearing the truth

aqua03 2022-12-27 19:02:42 UTC #46

At the risk of sounding like "That guy" i think when most (sane) people mention "Forced Diversity" they mean when say it's inserted in a way that doesn't service the themes or story the writer is trying get at if that makes sense.

Like say for example if I did something like Peanuts and had the white kids just hanging with other kids of different ethnicities like it's no big deal. That's not forced diversity, that's just how things be. Now if say every time said characters showed up, I grind the plot to a halt to sit the audience down for a lecture about how "racism's bad, mmkay?" even if the rest of the story wasn't about racism or the like. Then that would be considered "forced".

Now if say I was writing a story about how bigotry and racism hurt people, then it would be more okay to have lectures like that if that makes sense (though in a way that's natural to the story and not like I'm just sitting the audience down for a class lecture on the themes of the story)

Anyways, that's my thoughts on the subject anyways.

abigaillmartin 2022-12-27 19:08:59 UTC #47

Of course! Like it’s forced if it doesn’t have to do anything with the story or the characters, that’s what I believe.

HGohwell 2022-12-27 19:35:21 UTC #48

And this is the problem with your entire post; you undermined your points by giving them a sensationalist, edgy header, then make an entirely different point. "All inspirational advice is bs" is not in anyway the same as "don't use personal taste as an excuse to not improve". Especially when the "inspirational bs" is correct. The same way your forced diversity part isn't about forced diversity, it's about bad romance, which is not the same at all.

And (this is going to sound nasty but there's no nice way to put it) no one should take advice from someone who says art is objective. Art is entirely subjective. Now, there are aspects of art or writing that can be said to be objective, such as anatomy and spelling, but you can have perfect spelling all you want, if I don't like the piece, I don't like the piece, because taste is subjective. Just there are many terribly acted films that we love, or even non-anatomically correct animations or comics. Because art or writing are a culmination of their parts then presented to someone to like or dislike based on their personal tastes. The amount of times I've disagreed with judges and industry experts on things like portrait art awards, for example.

No, because it's happened. I've written really awesome (to me) complex plots and had people comment on them and then similar stories people ignore them for the ship. I revealed half the cast has been dead for chapters and got comments on the relationship not getting together yet or how unfair it was he was flirting with another man because he's got a boyfriend (who while endgame, they hadn't got together at this stage of the story) so I get that it's frustrating. But rather than whine about it, I go and look at what worked for one and what didn't work in the other. If the readers aren't taking away what you want them to, it's on you, not them. You're coming across exactly the same as those writers who yell at fans for shipping the hero and his rival who have an entire series full of chemistry and bonding, rather than the card board cut out love interest they shoved into a relationship at the last minute and didn't bother giving the hero any chemistry with, and think that's the fans fault rather than maybe thinking they should write a better love interest.

NellieVP318 2022-12-27 19:52:01 UTC #49

I always saw the term "Forced Diversity" whenever mainstream media just put whatever character who is X in and don't even bother with developing the character and just do it for "brownie points" for being diverse so the audience can praise them. Not saying that all mainstream media and creators do this, but it is trend that some of them do this which is a trend that should stop.

HGohwell 2022-12-27 19:57:25 UTC #50

This just reminds me of all Disney's "first gay character ever" characters, who they make a big deal of in marketing only for them to have all of a second on screen, no speaking lines and then never be seen again. Or characters who's ever line is "hey btw, did you know I'm gay" and no other character traits. Which, yeah, is cynical and forced, but not at all what the OP was talking about, (which is my frustration with their post in general).

Hayka 2022-12-27 20:16:09 UTC #51

yes. But not entirely that's the whole point. As you said some aspects of it are...you're having a big misunderstanding here. I seperated the "storytelling" and "the writing"
what I meant by "improve writing" is "improve the technique" such as the spelling and your style. I wasn't talking about the "storytelling" part. It was the "writing". The storytelling is subjective but the writing, at least I don't go with that, and try to make it good as much as I can. The story is completely subjective.

what you said about the headers are true. Will keep that in mind. They were dumb, I agree.

And no, there were more reasons for me to delete the novel, people being people just kinda disheartened me a bit. And no I haven't DROPPED it. One of the reasons I deleted it was because of the rewrite. And no, it didn't have as much GL as you think it did, and the mystery WAS well-written, at least to me and my nerdy beta readers. I do get what you say. I like cute stuff too, but when I write something I value for something else entirely, I'll get disappointed when others don't see that value.
And about the other issues others keep pushing, "forced diversity" and "badly written LGBT" are both issues that exist.
a badly written LGBT is an LGBT story that is not well written.
Forced Diversity is "there HAS to be LGBT character even if it doesnt make sense" in recent movies and TV shows. Did you see the Death Note live action? They made L dark-skinned, The entire movie is basically giving a middle finger to the original author, saying "screw u we want representation"

imo LGBT and diversity should feel natural. I told you an example above. A bisexual or gay relationship should start and develop and be something beautiful, and have good character that have layers and care about each other. That's a great representation. just adding a black character doesnt solve things. That just feels forced, at least to me, idk about you. But yeah. "forced diversity" is indeed a thing that should be addressed. This is not coming from a homophobe. This is literally coming from someone who IS in the community as a pan.

Freemints30 2022-12-27 20:29:08 UTC #52

Okay that's not forced diversity and the author mention loved the adaption. Although I dislike it for being badly written. """forced diversity wasnt the problem. Ironically what was the issue? all the actors were white instead of japnases, and those were not an issue? L being black was what stand out the most? The adpation change the setting to American (which you can argue whether or not its good or bad all day, but the point is it was less forced and more just a change in ins setting)

Ironically L's casting was the best part due to getting an actor I felt fit L. L being black was not a problem, in writing nor as story telling.

Hayka 2022-12-27 20:39:22 UTC #53

ahhh fine u do u ig
I hated it, and I do think it had forced diversity. It still exists, ya'll just turn a blind when you see it. The actor did do a good job tho, don't get me wrong, but still felt forced to me.
no point stretching this.when our views are this different. I said my takes and all the points I made meant perfect sense to me, and those were the experiences I had, sure I was snarky explaining my points but I'm not backing off. If you don't like it I don't mind really. All I did was give some heartfelt advice, or bs, or whatever you wanna call it. It's not like I have to perfect at it. That's what all writing guides do. None of them actually help, they're just the author's experience doing the writy thingy. Take them if you want. leave them if you want. Why waste your time arguing with me, really?

HGohwell 2022-12-27 20:40:19 UTC #54

Clearly, you are not getting things across as well as you think you are, if so many people seem to be misunderstanding you're points. So I'm going to speed round this, because you seem to just be digging your heels in defensively rather than actually wanting to engage critically with people's views on your advice that seems more like a bad experience you want to rant about than actual advice. Reminds me of those people who always used to turn up here complaining that to get ahead on Tapas, don't write proper stories, write trashy cliches because that's all the top stories are.

You separated technique and story telling, but most of those "everyone has different tastes" are about story telling, not technique, because very few of these writing advice book/podcast/articles ever cover technique like SPaG. Your point was badly presented at best, disingenuous at worst.
This was also another case of your presenting it badly then, because from the responses, basically everyone took it as you saying you had dropped it because people didn't focus on what you wanted them too. You bringing up GL constantly makes it look like a romance, because GL is romance. You're giving out that impression, if you'd just called it a mystery, or a mystery with background romance, people would have understood more. You put GL Mystery, giving the GL as much, if not more weight than the mystery. You say you don't want to put too much focus on the ship, but your presentation is doing so.
Again, what you described in the main post was no necessarily forced, and has been attributed just as often to straight romances, and just rookie romances in general. That you focused on romance over any other representation made that seem more the case. Nothing you pointed out was exclusive to representation, LGBTQ+ or otherwise. So another case of you needing to present your points better.
Was there a reason for him not to be dark-skinned? Please, tell me the reason why he shouldn't be dark-skinned. Or why any anime/manga character shouldn't be dark-skinned. Especially since the moved it to America, where there's a high population of darker skinned people than Japan so why not reflect that in your casting? (it makes as much sense a secret detective orphanages do) and tried to pass that other kid off as Light? If anything, dark-skinned L was the least of the issues with characters in that film, at least he'd clearly seen Death Note and was trying to bring L to his character. Are you really telling me making him white or Asian would have saved that at all? Death Note was a pretty badly done movie, made worse by trying to say they were the same characters but writing them completely differently. Bad writing all round. Pick a different movie and try to make the point again rather than picking a not great movie with bad writing and saying it was casting the person of colour that made it bad. (Also, by all reports, the original creator liked the Netflix Death Note, which having seen his latest work, I believe, so don't bring him into it to make a cheap point).
You make a point about the difference between forced and badly written but use badly written as an example of forced.
Again, being unnatural doesn't mean it's "forced" by some exec. Sometimes, it's just badly written by a newbie writer who wants to write it but has no idea how. Sometimes, straight romance is just as unnatural and forced. Putting it all on representation and ignoring the same problem in default straight white characters/romances is cheap.

TL:DR you seem to have an issue with getting across what you want to say and people apparently focusing on the wrong thing.