Audiences Hate Bad Writing, Not Strong Women

[Stargazer31]

Captain Marvel may be a terribly written Mary Sue, but I think we all know that by now, and I'm frankly sick to death of 3-hour video essays blaming her for all the world's woes
She's badly written, probably by a group of middle aged men, but that doesn't justify all the crap Brie Larson gets thrown at her for it

[river121693]

the 4th wall break is the point of She-Hulk though. Her breaking everything is getting super creative with it. I think it's much more creative than an Office Style talking to camera while still trying to keep with MCU world building. Also it's comic accurate. She has ended plot points by doing it in the comic.

I think show should be written to be creative and good before any corporate mandated world building so I have no issues with her being the most powerful character. The conclusion where she broke everything was a good fit for the show and that's what that matter. I can compartmentalize on a meta level that her power is rewritten to be whatever the movie serves. The show makes us completely aware of it through the final 4th wall break too.

I didn't see anything offensive or weird in the show.The only people who are butthurt at that "butthurt" comment are the butthurt fans who dislike her for just... twirking. Her snark makes sense because she's aware of them. She can be snarky at toxic ppl if she wants to.

[BoomerZ]

She's badly written, probably by a group of middle aged men, but that doesn't justify all the crap Brie Larson gets thrown at her for it

She brought it on herself with her attitude in the pressers.

[river121693]

what attitude?
None of it makes her deserving of the crap she got.

[abigaillmartin]

She’s a crazy woman. As a woman I don’t like other women who are crazy.

This stupid extreme feminism has to stop. Feminism is not making women more powerful than men it’s treating men and women as equals with women deserving trustworthy respect.

This is complicated.

[abigaillmartin]

Like no one deserves to get crap I agree. But what do you expect that you’re not going to get crap if you act as unlikeable, unkind and boastful as Ms. Larson?

Hm?

Need to understand why you are getting the crap in the first place but no one sees it.

There’s something called karma. What you give to the world is what you get in return.

[VibrantFox]

I really feel like "gender expectations" are the nail but very few are hitting it on the head because anytime we get a female character who strays further and further from what people perceive as being feminine she's a bad character and it's literally the exact same for guys (for example reactions to the new animated superman or ken in the new barbie movie)

Yes it's good to have balance in your characters but to take such issue with female (or male) characters not perfectly fitting the mold of what's 'socially acceptable' is kind of annoying

Like I didn't watch the new Little Women movie but I've read portions of the original book and my primary experience with the story was an anime adaptation that I used to watch on tv and Jo's "I'm tired of holding to all these woman standards, I'm going to be my own woman and do my own thing" is literally a part of her personality and wouldn't ya know there's also many other women irl who also don't always cling to a lot of socially defined norms for femininity.

Like it's literally the age old "that's not a woman a woman should be like that" or "that's not a man a man should be like that" debate but because there's folks who cling so dearly to these perceived molds of ideal womanhood or manhood anything that strays from it seems so grossly out of character or poorly representative of a man or woman even tho there's definitely probably folks like that out there in the real world. I've encountered more analytical and socially avoidant women who do have a softness but it takes opening up that shell and really getting to know that person, something that media, especially as of late, just kind of hits or misses. same of the pretty pink warrior who's classic girly girl but still kicks ass when needed (ex: legally blonde)

Obviously execution is important as is quality but (especially in light of the strike and things shared during or before) I think it's possible that blame may not even fall entirely on the writers. Interviews and convos about ideas and suggestions that remained on the cutting room floor do exist (the one about everything rejected in gravity falls was certainly a doozy) so it's like idk gender norms and corporate control are something worth thinking about

[river121693]

what exactly did she do though? and how is what she did "crazy" or extreme feminism? What did she say that was unkind?

Is it just boasting? I see men boast all the time.

It high key seems like yall have such a double standard on how men v women should behave. And it's not even every women. It's literally just Brie Larson.

[powerplantanimations]

I'm also saying this as someone who's read the comics. People always bring pages like that up, but I feel like they're missing the point of what the MCU is supposed to be.

Like... you wouldn't be hearing me complain about this stuff with the DCEU because like... what even is canon in that one lol? Yeah corporate mandated world building is a pain to storytelling, but this has always been a main selling point to the MCU. It's the reason why hardcore fans like me try to cling onto it.

Comics you can do whatever the Hell you like. But the films? Das the main gimmick. Infinity War was the Star Wars for so many people because nobody has ever done this before (in the United States at least :v).

Her twerking though was in character lol. I don't get the hate for that.

I will say, I'm shocked nobody saw anything offensive with the Bruce thing though.

Like... can someone please tell me why there's She-Hulk fans who were just like "meh" with it? I could only assume it's because a lot of the fans of the show aren't that familiar with continuity?

@VibrantFox Wait new Superman? Aren't people praising the new Lois because of how tomboyish she is? Barbie I can get but are you referring to the bit where she got mad at Superman for not telling her his identity? .... Because I felt like that actually was something to be annoyed about when you consider the fact that the dude has loved ones. It felt like a new trope that people just wanted to die in general rather than "I HATE WOMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN!!!!".

[VibrantFox]

I'm namely referring to people's reaction to Superman/Clark and the demographic of folks who don't like how much of a "himbo" he is, who are upset with his lack of control over his powers, his apparent lack of training and clumsiness.

Also while there has been positive reception for Lois there's just as much frustration about her character from appearance to attitude. So it's not really all thumbs up.

[river121693]

I guess it's just a difference of how we watch the MCU in this case lol. I like continuity but not if it stifle what people can do with the individual story.
I just think that there's a population that are overly critical of these films (not for the reasons you listed) just because it's women-focused, when so many films out there are worse and doesn't get nearly as much flack.

[Stargazer31]

Oh, so she deserves rape threats does she? What a load of crap. I don't care how rude she was, nobody deserves that

[Stargazer31]

That's exactly the point I was making! Yeah, she can be rude, but that doesn't justify harassment no matter how "crazy" she is

[powerplantanimations]

That Superman show is weird where while it does a whole lot right, it does a whole lot wrong. I'm happy they got Superman, Lois (to a certain extent), and Jimmy right.... I'm not too crazy about the villains. Also I'm betting Snyder fans are the ones who're making those critiques about him being a "clumsy himbo with a lack of control over his powers". The dude saves cats, not knock down buildings.

@river121693 I get that, but at the same time if they wanted to go over the top and do the things they wanted, then why not go cosmic like Guardians? There's actually rules in the MCU set by Kevin Fegie where space is meant to be where you go wacko/insano mode. I would've totally loved an explanation as to how She-Hulk got her fourth-wall abilities to make it less jarring (Deadpool can get away with it because you can come up with the excuse that it's all in his head). Could you imagine She-Hulk and Daredevil flying in space to talk to One Above All? AKA God? And then She-Hulk has that moment you showed me from the comics? I already like the joke that She-Hulk is dating Daredevil... someone who constantly questions his faith only to be standing next to a woman who knows literally everything. Why not take it to the next level? If anything, I felt the writers held this series back and chose not to go above and beyond because ironically enough, they have so much petty anger in their bodies to go after the trolls instead.

As for the woman focused thing, I think that's a vocal minority with big mouths just clamoring against it. I did want to bring this video up because it discusses how studios artificially manufacture controversy regarding women and feminism.

This video shows how aggressive studios will get:

Not saying it doesn't happen, mind you. But studios will do anything for money.

[abigaillmartin]

Rape threats are never okay but it doesn’t excuse her behavior.

[cherrystark]

Okay, enough about Brie Larson. She doesn't deserve the hate from the basement dwellers who hate her solely for her gender. Yes, she comes off as cold and has made rude comments, but it doesn't change the fact that she performed the character the way she was told to. Disneywood has made a standard of shoe-horning female characters into flat, one-dimensional molds and expect the general public to be "inspired" by them.

[abigaillmartin]

Yeah I don’t want to talk about her anymore. Because this is not what this is about. I’m sorry.

[abigaillmartin]

Yes, she comes off as cold and has made rude comments, but it doesn't change the fact that she performed the character the way she was told to.

That is fair. That is fair. It’s many people’s bad decisions in writing and money money money.

When it comes down to it, that’s just it.

[cherrystark]

And I've learned, especially in the online writer's universe is that everything is cyclical. If we want better female characters (and characters in general) we have to write them.

[abigaillmartin]

"Not Like Other Girls" messed me up when I was a kid.

It honestly did too because I grew up watching these and it lowered my self esteem and set too high expectations for me that was damaging. It honestly shaped me into the perfectionist I am which has had a negative impact on my mental health and life. At one point I thought being just a girl and liking girl things and wearing dresses and such was stupid. But I learned it’s okay to be a girl. It’s okay to be a girl and like things that are not traditionally for girls. I learned it’s okay to not be good at things because no one is perfect and no one is a Mary Sue.

Just write human beings for God’s sake. Cause this is what happens.