Comparing learning new skills to experiences learning art

smokesalty 2023-02-09 00:57:59 UTC #1

So, I've realised I tend to approach learning new things to how I learned to improve my art and writing. And honestly, learning whole new skills can be overwhelming because I know how many years I spent working on getting my art to the level it is at the moment.

Right now that skill would be music composition. Granted, I had an education in music years back but I've had to go back to the basics since it's been so long. Similarly to how I had to start art by learning from realism and the fundamentals of art, I've started learning music theory, and trying to get back into playing my guitar, which has been gathering dust for who knows how long. And through looking at how music is constructed to sound the way it does and listening to music I enjoy I'd like to get a better understanding for when I compose music myself.

And it's frustrating! I know that's what its like being a beginner artist looking at people who are incredible at what they do and not knowing how to get there myself. I've made a few short pieces of music (for context, I'm really inspired by video game osts, so I'm trying to make my own horror sounding ones for fun) and I realise that while I still have fun and like how some of it turns out, I am a beginner making basic sounding stuff. And that's normal!

So I'm trying to approach it like I did learning art. Looking at inspiration, looking at what they're doing and implementing it into my own work, listening to advice from experienced artists, practicing making things (even if bad) often to get a feel for it. And honestly, the idea that it'll take years of work to improve at can be a bit frustrating to think about, but enjoying making things is what keeps me going with practice.

There's my quick little ramble. Also, if any of you have any resources to share in regards to music composition, please do share as well

BoomerZ 2023-02-09 01:35:06 UTC #2

Just be better than you were yesterday and you will get there.

TheLemmaLlama 2023-02-09 02:55:31 UTC #3

Heyyy I've also being dabbling in composition! My approach for learning both had been similar (to each other) as well, but different from your approach; I'm not as diligent, since I'm not aiming to master the skills but just be 'good enough' in order to get the most important broad strokes of my vision down XD

Have you found that some of your existing skills transfer over to learning the new skill? I've found this with music and writing! When it really sunk in just in what way exactly good (or at least melodically strong) songs are like a story, my mind was blown XD That's how I started (confidently) breaking out of the 'basic' structures like sentence form and period form (or more like not-deliberately using them; they ended up still showing up but in more complicated ways, like being nested in each other like a verse that's sentence form overall but each phrase is actually itself in period form)

I've been watching Ryan Leach

smokesalty 2023-02-09 04:00:55 UTC #4

YES!! I find a lot of the choices I make when coming up with compositions is what mood/story I'm trying to tell and how I want it to progress throughout. So my writing skills with stuff like structure, pacing and mood help with determining what I'm looking for. Its trying to tell a story with instrumentals instead of words.

Granted, a lot of it just has been me trying random things and seeing if I like the sound of it or the feeling. But based on art/writing knowledge I know to unify and tie together what is established in the music, and make it sound somewhat coherent. (I'm still very new to it ofc)

Yeah, I get that! I have a certain vision for what scenes/scenarios I have in mind and I want to at least have the skills to pull that off and have it sound pleasing and interesting

Lensing 2023-02-09 06:48:18 UTC #5

That´s an interesting topic for me because I started drawing comics and playing music at
the same time when I was 8 and focused on music when I was a teenager.
Some things about making music compared to drawing are different and some things
are similiar, it´s really interesting. It both takes time and it´s easier when you have a lot
of time and approach things in a playful way and at least in my case, focus on a style,
get good at it and stick to it. The focus on style thing is something I wouldn´t recommend
to people who learn drawing but it worked very good for me with music, I learned playing
& composing in a playful and fun way with minimal theory. I wish I could say that about
drawing

TheLemmaLlama 2023-02-09 07:07:41 UTC #6

Haha, when I try that it mostly ends up feeling super basic-sounding or a complete, dissonant mess XD It's gotten better after some music theory, which helped narrow down the space of random things to try

tbh I'm not even aiming for the whole things to sound good in the sense of a fully arranged/polished track XD I just want to make musical 'sketches' (basically just melody and chords); just enough to communicate the 'arc' of the 'story' I want to tell (to the point where someone else can just pick it up and arrange it properly with instruments and stuff without losing my vision for the 'mood', even if I don't explain my vision)

Huh, I'm pretty much the opposite; I don't remember touching anything resembling theory while learning to draw until I finally learnt perspective properly, whereas I couldn't compose for poo-poo until I picked up some music theory Maybe it's because I don't play any instruments XD

Lensing 2023-02-09 07:19:05 UTC #7

I´m pretty sure that this is the reason, There is a lot you can learn from some basic chords on the guitar or
some very basic piano theory. I taught myself to play upright bass based on the basic knowledge that I had
from playing rhythm guitar because the low 4 strings are the same and just by trying out what sounds good.
But like I wrote above, it depends a lot what kind of music you are composing, I´m into folk, blues, rock´n´roll, rockabilly
songs, 3 chords, simple melodies. It´s a bit like drawing like Charles Schultz because it´s very limiting.
The limits don´t bother me when I make music because I will play blues and rockabilly until I die and don´t need more
theory but they bother me when drawing because I can´t draw the things that I want to draw with limited theory/technique

darthmongoose 2023-02-09 08:10:09 UTC #8

The videos on 8-Bit Music Theory are really good, both the "Music theory minute" ones, and just generally all the videos that talk through how techniques are applied in great videogame tracks and what effect they can have.

With regard to learning, I think it's good to have people to look up to and aim for who aren't at the very top end of pro. Like if I was going to learn composition, I'd be chatting to people from Videogame Remix communities, composers from really small videogames on itch, or Homestuck fanmusic people, because they're good at what they do, but they're not waaaay up a the top end of their field and speaking at a level I can't understand. That's how I kept going with comics when I was younger; I made friends with people who were just breaking into the industry, a few years older than me, had just placed in or won competitions I was planning to enter, and I aimed to be as good as them, "good enough" to get professional work.

People tend to think about professional creatives like once you're pro, you're top level, but honestly, there's a whole world of difference between somebody who's just reached a level where they can do baseline acceptable work on a small product or fill in details under the eye of a more experienced creator, and top-end senior creatives whose name is known even outside of the industry. So I think rather than immediately aiming for the top, aim for the bottom of the profession first, aim to be reliably able to make some really simple, basic background loops that'd go in a videogame, and then start applying more complex theory and ideas to up your game until you're really good.

I have the same feeling about comics where people are trying to tell the cleverest story and have the most complex and artistic art and so think they're above baseline pros, or even mid-level people like me, but they haven't mastered really basic stuff like making their visual storytelling clear and easy to follow, how to make pleasing panel layouts that flow well, how to pick fonts that fit, how to choose where to publish and market a comic to find people who want to read it etc. Always respect the people who are managing to hit the bottom targets; you can try to fly above them later.

TheLemmaLlama 2023-02-09 10:49:13 UTC #9

Oh yeah, that makes sense too! I've always been pretty happy sticking to anime style for drawing humans, so that probably also explains why I might not have needed much theory for a long time compared to someone who wanted to draw people realistically or stylized in other different ways XD

I assume this is advice for people who are learning to go pro; certainly it makes sense to focus on the essential skills for hitting the baseline targets first if your aim is to get in asap.

Thing is, playing around with clever stories and super-artsy visuals is the part that's fun; it makes you feel special - while anyone could learn clear visual communication if they tried hard enough and good basics are good for basically the same reasons each time, works that are 'clever' or 'original' are considered such for very different reasons, unique to the work (and thus you, or at least that's how it feels).

So being 'that person who made that super unique work' is a more exciting prospect than being 'just another person who could reliably do decent work', and so if the former dream gives someone the drive to learn in a way the latter doesn't, I'd say let them try to be clever; let them try to 'fly above' people in the industry.

Ofc if you really are intending to go pro (or even just get a lot of eyes on our work, without involving yourself with 'the industry'), you should be grounded in reality and recognize that you need to learn the essentials at some point because it doesn't matter how unique your work is if there are glaring flaws that fundamentally disrupt the reader's experience of trying to take it in. But I don't think you absolutely need to learn the 'basics' first. 'Easier' skills aren't always prerequisites to 'harder' ones; you need to walk before you can run, but you don't need to walk before you can juggle 3 knives and a torch

I like the spirit of this though; chat with people who are good at what they do, but aren't so in demand that they don't have the time to, uh, chat with you Even just hanging around in an amateurs' community you bump into people who are already pretty good, but still hang around :]

Yeah, if I consider the pros in some given field (music, art etc) I would certainly have trouble arranging them in a 'hierarchy' If it's measured by experience, some of the works I look up to and aspire to the most are indie productions by people who haven't had much experience. Which I guess is what you're saying we should do XD But I admire them because they're 'clever and artsy' (in particular ways that resonate with me), and thus my admiration for them is going to inspire me to try to be 'clever and artsy' rather than inspiring me to master the basics :'D

darthmongoose 2023-02-09 11:50:38 UTC #10

If somebody is asking "how to learn" something on a forum, I generally assume that they care about becoming proficient and turning out a consistently solid product for other people to enjoy. If the person only cares about indulging their own desire to experiment for their own pleasure, why even ask for advice? Like if that's what somebody wants to do, I'm not stopping them, but they should just go and have fun, experiment and learn as they go.

A little baffled that you think visual storytelling is an "easier" skill. In my experience, it can be very easy to throw around artsy visuals and deep-sounding vague words or quotations in a comic to give the shallow illusion of depth while making a thoroughly incompetent comic. It's all too easy for people to think they're "flying above" people like me by turning out some scruffy looking sketchy comic with edgelord themes and misused literary quotes and thinking they're the next Alan Moore when actually they've made an unreadable mess, because they just weren't willing to put in the legwork or the empathy for the audience's experience necessary to create a comic for anyone else's enjoyment. With comics industry friends, we tend to call this kind of comic "smelling your own farts."
Yes, it's fun making a comic just for yourself and basking in your own brilliance and superiority over all those poor silly hacks with their Pop Trash, but if somebody asks me for advice on how to get good at making comics, I'm not going to advise being one of those people, since a big prequisite is "either be rich and well-connected enough that you can still live and get work while making this crap or don't have any interest in building an audience", and I feel like if somebody cares enough what other people think to ask my opinion, and isn't so well-connected they can just phone up Brian Talbot or whoever to ask, they probably want to know how to make a comic that can reliably build an audience.

I don't need to tell people how to have fun making comics; I just tell them how to make comics people will like.

Also a little low-key insulted that you think I don't care about clever themes or technique, when I have an English Lit degree and my comic is a feminist deconstruction of shounen manga dealing with themes like finding redemption and making amends having been empowered by a patriarchal society? Just because I like to make competent comics that are easy to read, doesn't mean I don't care about the higher level part of my craft like high level metaphors, deep themes or artistic experimentation. I just think that basic accessibility and having appreciation for the core principles of sequential art as a form is absolutely vital as a foundation to stand on when experimenting with how far the form can be pushed. And I like to think that the fact I can build an audience of 2500 subs on a comic about a terrible unsexy sword girl dealing with a friendship breakup in Fantasy Manchester with 5 main characters, a ten year timeskip, a needlessly complicated magic system and no good elevator pitch proves that if a creator builds up enough skill in making work accessible, they can have their cake and eat it; make original, interesting, challenging works that also build an audience.

igneriss 2023-02-09 18:24:24 UTC #11

That's an interesting topic! Now that I think about it, I learn new skills the same way I've learnt how to draw, which is trial and error cx What I mean by this, is just trying to do the thing with a very basic knowledge, and then there's cycles of practising, learning from others, learning more theory on the way, more practising, learning from mistakes (... or getting more knowledge if I reach the 'I have no idea how to do this' point), and so on.
I haven't really realised it before, but I used the same pattern for most skills I have, be it drawing, cooking, working in a lab, various testing, learning new programs and so on. I wonder if getting good theoretical knowledge first wouldn't be more efficient, probably it would be, but this chaotic way works for me very well so I guess I'll keep learning like that

TheLemmaLlama 2023-02-10 01:24:54 UTC #12

Idk, a lot of people learning for fun still seek out tutorials and existing knowledge on the craft they're learning for fun. 'Learning for fun' doesn't mean you can't feel frustrated when you get stuck, and have to enjoy the process of figuring out the entire darn thing yourself instead of just saying screw it and asking for advice It's like playing a video game; you're certainly not doing to to master the art of playing this particular game, but if you get stuck you're still gonna go look for a walkthrough.

Apologies if my comment came across as implying that!

I think what's going on here is I interpreted your mention of trying to be 'clever and artsy' as trying to do 'high level metaphors, deep themes or artistic experimentation', whereas you meant 'throw around artsy visuals and deep-sounding vague words or quotations in a comic to give the shallow illusion of depth'.

For example:

You yourself later referred to 'high level metaphors, deep themes or artistic experimentation' as 'higher level parts of your craft', so I think my thought process when referring to visual storytelling as an "easier" skill was similar to the thought process that drove you to write 'higher level part of my craft'.

Maybe we're both wrong about this skill being 'higher' in any way, but when I was referring to visual storytelling as an "easier" skill, I was comparing it to trying to do 'high level metaphors, deep themes or artistic experimentation' properly. (And imo, sometimes you end up doing things improperly in the process of learning to do it properly. Something you might see as a cheap attempt to seem deep might just be a botched attempt at actually trying to be deep :P)

I think this is the actual core of our disagreement; you believe the core principles need to be mastered first before you can experiment, whereas I don't; I think someone can experiment with fancy things and learn the core principles later (e.g. they start seeing a pattern of what does or doesn't work, and through that the core principles become apparent to them).

I may not have communicated this very well, but that's all I'm really trying to say; bottom-up learning might be slower, but it's fun, and it works.

Yeah, the foundations/theory of many fields (including the principles of sequential storytelling) are amazing and beautiful, and I love that moment when it just 'clicks' and you realise everything is actually simple and can be traced back to this small set of principles, BUT it tends to feel totally obtuse and meaningless when you first encounter it with no context.

That's the drawback of top-down learning; maaaaaybe it's more efficient, but it also feels very alienating (or at least boring); it feels like you're pointlessly moving rocks from one side of a field to another and back again and somehow that's supposed to make you better at comics

(I bounce back and forth between theory and practice; when I get stuck with experimenting, I go look see if there's any theory tying it all together, and when I bump into theory that's too obtuse to wrap my head around, I go back to experimenting to see if I bump into the concept they're trying to describe to me :D)

igneriss 2023-02-10 08:00:49 UTC #13

Yeah and sometimes I KNOW the theory, but it clicks only after I see someone do it in real life. There's that sudden 'AHAAAA' moment

system 2023-03-12 08:00:48 UTC #14

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