Do you ever feel overshadowed by more popular genres/themes?

joe_galindez 2017-09-27 14:47:38 UTC #24

Market research doesn't stop at just men and women. All data points are of interest to the professionally-minded artist. I'd certainly like to know how many LGBT people read my stuff, and where on the spectrum they tend to fall. Not only would that knowledge influence my creative decisions, but it would also influence my business decisions -- where to advertise, how to word the ad copy, etcetera.

You can't simply assume that you know your audience, or that your audience resembles you. I'm Asian, but I write for English-speaking audiences. I write fantasy, but with a modern and even science-fiction tone that the Tolkien fan may not like. Mainstream fantasy is full of bikini armor and implausibly large swords; my writing is full of historically-accurate arms, armor, and swordfights. I know what I like, but I have no idea who else likes it.

I agree that statistics will never capture the reality of things. The map is not the territory. But statistics are still useful when it comes to marketing. They may not be able to identify all of your readers, but they can tell where to find most of your readers. And that's more than good enough. You'll never have the advertising budget to reach everyone in the world, but at least with statistics you can make each dollar count.

Kayke 2017-09-27 15:03:43 UTC #25

Hey guys, just checking in to preemptively remind everyone to stay on topic and be respectful toward each other. I know trying to get your comic noticed can be very stressful and sometimes leads to tension in discussions like this. Especially when the BL genre is brought into the conversation.

Let's try to be constructive and supportive of each other since we're all working hard, no matter what genre our comics are.

Croik 2017-09-27 15:09:17 UTC #26

@joe_galindez I think the point is that focusing on gender as an audience isn't as beneficial as it might seem, and in fact is harmful to fiction as a whole. Studies have shown that women aren't generally wired differently than men, we are "conditioned" differently. Saying "women don't like -whatever genre-" is like saying "women don't like science as much." There are social stigmas and conventions in place that lead to gender differences in habits and professions.

So when people repeat things like "women don't really like gruesome action" all they're doing is making me, a women who loves the Saw franchise, roll my eyes. And it makes women who MIGHT like gruesome action feel like they shouldn't be trying it out in the first place. There is no point to reinforcing those gender or sexuality lines.

Not that I'm a big shot creator or anything but I would rather ask my audience what they enjoy and where else they go to enjoy it, rather than asking them their age/race/gender/orientation. Because those personal labels are getting less and less important all the time, but where they go and what they spend their money on will always be relevant to advertising.

IdiotWithPencil 2017-09-27 15:10:33 UTC #27

yeah true my bad, just that the wording was more frantic and crazy then concisest with LV I was just using lollie cause it was the first thing that came to mind when I think fetish, my bad I have been binging some anime analisis videos lately and they might be still in my mind, ps. in japan the age of concent is 16 so there it ain't pedo its culture ;D

and this little thing is what spun a very toxic thread, can we all agree atleast that the demographic here tend to like romance and gay stuff, yes? ok moving on

deltastic 2017-09-27 15:21:44 UTC #28

Being a creative person can be super hard. We all spend a lot of time and effort on something, typically solitarily, and we want some kind of return on our time investment, or otherwise to attempt to connect with an audience through our craft.

When this doesn't happen, it can really hurt. I worked on a personal webcomic before the hey-day of webcomic collating sites on my own designed WordPress. I worked my tail off for years and quit in a non-public huff, grumpy that all my hard work wasn't getting the attention I felt it deserved. Looking back, I don't place the blame on demographics, genre, art or even the writing, but on my headspace at the time. I worked too hard on something with an expectation, and overextended myself. I didn't appreciate the fans I had and the people who did follow, because I was for some reason anticipating something else or comparing myself to others and secretly seething. It wasn't the world or the genres or the sites that needed to change, it was my own perspective.

You can try to game the system, make stuff the most marketable for the least-common denominator and most people to see. That's what companies do. That's what most big-budget movies do, a return on investment and attempt to make money. If that's why you want to creative, then by all means, it's very important to watch the market research, polls, and cater your craft to reach the widest audience and get the most attention/money/whatever it is you are seeking. There are ways to do that.

But what I like about Tapas is that, although it's a site that you can make money on and obviously cares about professionalism, that by and large the people here seem to be working on passion projects and things they enjoy. Not everyone will have the same amount of followers, but if quantity over quality of watches is what a creator is looking for, if seeing other people doing well rankles the senses rather than inspires that it's a reachable goal, perhaps it might be useful to look at why that is?

IdiotWithPencil 2017-09-27 15:32:02 UTC #29

ok first yes we are wired diffrently, why? hormones, women don't have as much testoteron and males don't have as much estrogen, and bio 101, these things are in the brain and they change your way of, thinking,living and body, if everibody was wired the same as you say then gay is something that is taught and not a, for lack of a better term, "quirk" of the brain

if we wherent wired diffrently then why where the seperation created in the first place, why aren't we all the same since the beggining?

why?, you know your readers are females so why not make it more appealing to them?, or if you have to many females why not check what you can do to get more males? it's a tool and not using it is your decision but it ain't useless

TEND as in USUALLY as in THEY AREN'T ALLWAYS THE SAME only THE TREND is!!!!!!!!!!! marketing isn't and exact science so we say USUALLY so that you can know that OUTLIERS exist I have had to explain this too many times I am tired

bottom line
tapas is catering to the tumblr crowd, the tumblr crow is primaraly girls and homosexuals and are obcessed with their sexuality/shipping and anime so of course the market will be over saturated with bl/gl/romance with anime styles

marketing is boiling down your product to the most basic princepals IE stereotype, this lets you know what your audience likes and what you can market it acordanlly

males and females ARE DIFFRRENT and have diffrent tastes when it come to content if not why the hell is twilight not a massive hit with dudes? as it was with girls

OUTLIERS EXIST and I have pointed out that they exist multiple times

sorry for this hijack of the topic now can we please just move on GOD Dang it

Shanny8 2017-09-27 15:40:42 UTC #30

This is the story of my current grind. My comic tends to be eclipsed by fantasy, BL, sci-fi, and everything else- but I'm good with it at most times. I understand the superhero genre gets a bias rep because the comics industry has had to deal with mainstream effects of being drowned out by SH comics for a long time, but right now I enjoy doing my little superhero story.

The way I look at it, I'm glad that other genres are now picking up momentum- it gives me a lot more to read.

punkarsenic 2017-09-27 15:47:24 UTC #31

not really relevant and also incorrect, but okay

that was kinda my point? people who frequent this site happen to like certain things, thats not an issue of anyone being in the wrong, and its not something that really needs changing

joe_galindez 2017-09-27 15:48:03 UTC #32

I wasn't quoting these statistics in the prescriptive sense. "Individuals vary a great deal", after all. Just because men tend to like a certain thing, that does not mean that a man should like that thing. Rather I was quoting these statistics in the descriptive sense. That is, "People of a certain demographic tend to like a certain thing, therefore we should focus our advertising toward this group."

I get what you're saying about not shutting out other groups and not reinforcing stereotypes. On the other hand, advertising budgets are not infinite. An artist must account for market forces like any professional. Society must change, it's true, but is it fair to place this burden on struggling creators? Should it wait until they're successful? Is it even something that artists must do alone, or does this responsibility fall to everyone?

With my marketing hat on, I'd lead with, "Who are you?" and "How can I find more people like you?" followed by "Where do you go?" and "What do you spend your money on?". Answering these questions will tell you where you should be marketing yourself.

Sex demographics will indicate whether you should choose Tumblr or Reddit
Age demograpics will indicate whether you should choose Facebook or Instagram
National demographics will indicate whether you should choose VK or Weibo

Those are very broad strokes, but this is classic media-buying methodology. You don't want to hire a billboard or place a newspaper ad that your audience will never see.

Croik 2017-09-27 15:48:11 UTC #33

I don't think it's fair of you to state your opinion as if it is fact and then declare the conversation over, but since you're not actually reading what I said, I guess there's no reason to respond anyway.

Keep at it, OP. There are lots of thing that get noticed outside the mold of what's "popular", just look at Silent Horror Z, one of the top comics on this very site!

Croik 2017-09-27 15:51:40 UTC #34

Honest question: Rather than asking "are you male or female?" and then choosing Tumblr or Reddit accordingly, why not simply ask "Do you go to Tumblr or Reddit?"

IdiotWithPencil 2017-09-27 16:00:01 UTC #35

right back at ya, also nice saying I don't read your stuff when you just said I placed my opinions as facts, biology isin't an opinion it's a fact like global warming is a fact, the tumblr thing maybe but marketing is boiling things down and outliers do exist, the only thing you could say is my opinion is that tapas is marketing towards tumblr, but are you really gonna say that I have no basis when most people here use tumblr and are part of the tumblr crowd?

joe_galindez 2017-09-27 16:03:51 UTC #36

I'd like to make it clear that knowing your audience is useful even if it doesn't affect the product. You can be uncompromising in your vision and market research will still help you advertise in an optimum way.

As a marketer, you aren't trying to get to know your readers better. You're trying to build a profile that will help you identify potential new readers. "Are you male or female?" is far from the only question, but it is one of the first questions.

EDIT: Asking where your current audience goes will help, yes, but what if many potential new readers don't go there? You'll have no way of finding them unless you have a profile (or two) that predicts where they will be.

IdiotWithPencil 2017-09-27 16:25:25 UTC #37

true it's actually 13 0-o more crazy than I thought also I was just trying to excuse why I used lollies since I would have used it with anything really I would compare it to monstergirls or the crazy butt boobs fat fetish that are out there, not trying to be malicious just putting lollies as not inherently illegal in the place where it's most promoted (japan in this case), still sorry for using it but hey nobody is perfect =/(really uncomfortable thread cause I use this by accident hope it dosen't happen again)

I agree wholeheartedly I love the fact tapas can be this breading ground for this kind of content, I'm just saying why I believe it was made so and why it's hard to make it big here,
tapas needs some changes doesn't mean I want gay comics to disappear, far from it, I want more diversity in what tapas promotes nothing more nothing else

punkarsenic 2017-09-27 16:42:39 UTC #38

okay, this is the last either of us are gonna say along that line bc no way am i arguing abt what is and isnt pedophilia on tapas forums. something being legal doesnt make it okay in some way, and doesnt stop it from being pedophilia. if youre sorry, stop finding excuses, but thank you for apologising.

and the thing is, tapas promotes a really diverse range of stuff. maybe as a pie chart it would look like this:

in which that slightly bigger slice is romance (also, forgive me, this is hideous, i know). so theres a lot of different stuff, and probably the % of romance on a whole is quite low, even if its larger than any other genre %. bear in mind this is what tapas promotes and not what is highlighted for being popular, something tapas itself has no control over.

maybe youre just so unused to gay content, that when it's a regular staple of a site, it feels like more than it actually is? thats a common phenomenon

EDIT:

for a more concrete illustration of this diversity (although my sample sizes are pretty small)

3 fantasies, a romance, and a slice of life. so is fantasy unfairly promoted?

drama, (gasp) action and horror????? BOY genres????? and then a comedy and a romance. a harem romance written for straight men, might i add. thats a diverse range, and you can also see that the artistic styles are diverse, too.

IdiotWithPencil 2017-09-27 17:01:09 UTC #39

ok sorry I will stop XD (don't want that either)
also nah not against gay media or weirded out, hell I like it from time to time (if done right of course) I think I should of said female/lgbtq+ oriented fiction since that is what mostly trends/popular in tapas and what they mostly promote (from the months I've been here each week it's either romance, gay romance, female oriented comic, or slice of life) also that pie chart needs to have a bit of a rework since if we go with genre tapas only lets you place one tag for your comic as in what is your comic about, and then you place other tags,
it would be better if you also included on it the romance chart all the fantasy/horror/supernatural romance comics that are labled as just fantasy or horror or supernatural, example how to be a werewolf is and urban fantasy but it is also female fiction and has a gay romance between two ... I would like to say protags since they are the side kicks of the main girl but whateves

also did you check those cause those all look female oriented(female on the front hunky but emotional guys) as I just said XD
also like I said tapas only lets one tag, did you check if those comics wherent fantasy romance or has a bl gl relationship just saying just cause it says fantasy dosen't mean it is oriented towards another crowd =V

just giving my opinion I will check these out if I have time

edit:
hey look what 's on the front page XD

also look at what is the thumb of the two top tens

and look at what they use to promote t-shirts

again female/gay oriented not and attack but and observation

deltastic 2017-09-27 17:05:46 UTC #40

Also to add to this, there is a thread about Webcomic Readers Research I think could go hand in hand with this thread:
https://forums.tapas.io/t/webcomics-readers-research/20472/1
It includes a survey which you take to get the results, right now it has about 150 responses, again a small group mostly from the forum I think and self-selected to reply, but the genre breakdown from that is (as of posting):

This doesn't list BL, GL or Supernatural as genres, but I found it very interesting nevertheless! It's also one of many resources for looking into the demographics in general, and about times/days/ways to post, if that might help boost readership or reach.

IdiotWithPencil 2017-09-27 17:09:18 UTC #41

I actually did this survey, they let you chose multiple genre, but again most put fantasy and stuff like that but with only 150 and 50%vs 30% male to female I don't think it's a good point since tapas has I would like to ssay over 1million users? like that's less than 1% of the user base =/

edit: not saying its bad just saying as and observation
(i fell like I need to copy paste this so people won't say I am attacking something geez -.-)

punkarsenic 2017-09-27 17:14:20 UTC #42

yes i know this, i use tapas. the pie chart isnt accurate in any sense, its not very serious - but also, im not just dividing up by genre tag but by type of comic. i was trying to illustrate in a slightly more fun way than just saying it that tapas promotes some really niche and unique stuff a lot of the time.

i did, actually. they all only tagged their main genre, and mostly seemed pretty general in target audience (aside from the obvious) in fact, looking back, there was at least two blantantly aimed at straight men. so go figure

the front page has previously been all sorts of comics, dude, and only recently have i seen any LGBT comics on spotlight (and the ones that are have earnt their place through years of hard work, as individual creators.) are you just particularly annoyed today because a gay comic has been highlighted? i dont think youre against gay media, and never implied that, but you have an exaggerated perspective on how much gay media tapas promotes, which is a perspective a lot of people have because theyre used to being the sole target audience, regardless of how they feel about other target audiences.

LordVincent 2017-09-27 17:21:40 UTC #43

I hate having to contribute to the gender stereotypes but I feel like defending Tapas choices here is more important. Here is a quick example set of Tapas promoting "MALE TARGETED" things:

Girls with big boobs, straight, told from a man's perspective.

Girls with big boobs, straight, HAREM, told from a man's perspective.

Girl who gets her clothes stolen, ripped, etc in various ways in a post apocalyptic world. Pantyshots. Horror. Thumbnail has the typical ass and boobs pose that has been traditionally used to attract men to a comic. (which honestly, all these comics, I don't mind these things. Boobs are great. Women are great. Do what you like and read what you like, I don't care)

This doesn't look very tumblr friendly to me. In fact, tumblrinas would see this and scream murder.

These are just a handful of tapas promoted comics that do not fit your idea of what tapas "only" promotes. I could go on but then we'd be here all day. Point is, tapas promotes a very diverse range of content. The fact that some of it does better than others depends on the audience. You can promote all you want but you cannot force audiences to read and pay for content that doesn't suit them.

I think Tapas should be celebrated for the fact that they promote varied types of content, INCLUDING lgbt content.

What has traditional media done? Promoted everything but gay content (or things created by ethnicities they don't want in the game) for years, and what do you know, gay content didn't do well because it wasn't even allowed into the medium.

Tapas promotes all kinds, except for hateful content (i.e. Nazi, homophobic, etc). Some do well, some don't. Tapas continues to allow and promote all kinds of content. Some continue to do well while some don't. Tapas can't do any more than they are already doing, as they (as has been said) cannot force people to read things they are uninterested in. I don't see what tapas is doing wrong here.