Does everyone have the right to tell certain stories?

Michelle 2017-11-09 22:03:04 UTC #32

Right, so, I do believe we're in agreement on that aspect!

LordVincent 2017-11-09 22:04:26 UTC #33

Oh yea at equality gatherings online or irl there's sometimes that one cis white dude who is trying to be "woke" just to get laid or seem humble, so he just rambles on about "I think women's voices should be heard!! They are valuable! I just wanna say I don't mind stepping back and letting others take space!!" to the point that he is the only one taking space and being heard. Talk about talking over people.

IdiotWithPencil 2017-11-09 22:05:51 UTC #34

who the fuk? what the fuk?
also I thought bi was the best and worst of both worlds =/ (gets loved by both and hated by both)
you really have to stop seeing such vile man it ain't good for your health

punkarsenic 2017-11-09 22:10:46 UTC #35

ugh, okay, one more point because youre totally not getting me. its not about being another species!! its not about being too different!! its about being respectful, its about understanding that on some issues, you are not the authority, you do not know best, and you will not be able to tackle the issue with the nuance required, the nuance someone with the personal experience could provide.

lets use moonlight as an example. moonlight deals with black masculinity, primarily. moonlight is about uplifting the black community, specifically that of the creator's hometown miami. its about reaching out to young, gay, black boys in the hood and saying 'you can be you. you can be seen, and be tender, and be loved.'

i have never been a young, gay, black boy in the hood. for me to tell that story will never have the same impact, even if the impact could still be significant. it would take on a different tone, one of the white gaze, and a subtly othering nature. i am not a member of that community, and do not have the ability to speak for them the way that moonlight's creator does. this is not because hes an alien, a different species - its because he has the life experience to pour into the film, to fill it to bursting point with empathy and the subtlety of lived experience. he could project the same image as me, but his would be in higher resolution. he is coming to his target audience, to young, gay, black boys, as an equal - he is saying 'i am you. you are not alone, because i have lived through this as well. you can create art, you can be tender, you can create beautiful films about black gay love, because i am just like you, and i have.'

i will never have that impact on those boys, with that story. no amount of research can beat out filling in a life to its seams. thats okay.

LordVincent 2017-11-09 22:18:20 UTC #36

How on earth have you missed out on this...?

Okay so I'll explain real quick: Transphobia/trans negative attitudes come in different forms. Here are a few:

People who think we are sinful disgusting pieces of shit who are an insult to God's creation.
People who think we are dumb, mentally ill and that there's "only 2 genders" and we'll never be real men/women/other
People who think we are the sexiest thing ever and a fun adventure that they need to put their dicks in ASAP (chasers). These are super common on porn sites, dating apps or in dating in general. HERE'S WHERE THE "BEST OF BOTH WORLDS" CLAIMS ARE AT
People who are fine with dating us on the misunderstanding assumption that they can just ignore our gender identities and be attracted to us as the sex we were assigned at birth.
People who are none of the above but have such a fragile sense of self or masculinity that they beat you to death as soon as you tell them you're trans (once again in dating situations)

There's more but yea, not all people who are hurtful to us are directly hateful.
My ex bf can actually be categorized as a weird combo of 3 and 4, because he asked me if I was going to do any genital surgery. When I told him no he expressed JOY over it, saying he preferred it that way. Something about the taste. So many things wrong with that reaction that I don't even know where to begin.

indagold 2017-11-09 22:19:04 UTC #37

A good writer can write stories from their viewpoint, a GREAT writer can write stories about experiences other than what they've gone through. People bitch and whine we don't have enough representation and then throw a hissy fit when ever we do get it and the creator gasp is straight/white/cis. I'm probably the most marginalized fuck out there and I could not give a shit who writes stories that's not from their viewpoint. The more the merrier I say.

All this dumb political mumbo jumbo just boils down to don't look a gift-horse in the mouth. You want more stories with more deeper plots? More mindsets and backgrounds to explore? Then just accept that people can write stories that aren't their own.

joe_galindez 2017-11-09 22:23:35 UTC #38

All of those things are implicit in deep research. When you tackle a subject the way a method actor does, you automatically go in with sensitivity, respect, just everything.

I've held seances. I've channeled dead people, or appeared to channel dead people. I don't know that one of them died of a heart attack but I feel chest pains anyway. A widow asks me, asks her husband, why he had to go away. Another woman, I tell her without prompting that she should stop dusting my bowling trophies. Just throw them away, her husband tells her. Move on with her life. And I feel like I've loved this woman for years. And I feel like I'm saying goodbye for the last time.

That's the level of immersion I'm talking about.

hotsubsandwich 2017-11-09 22:24:52 UTC #39

So, I’m struggling to word this correctly because I’m at work and can’t make a super long post. I will come back later if need be when I have more time to elaborate, but:
I think it’s a slippery slope to start determining what is right and What is wrong to write based on an author’s ethnicity or experience. Fiction is fiction, and not biography, for a reason. Certain situations like poverty and PTSD and war may all be metaphors for what the author has experienced or be autobiographical from the author’s position, but they may be using a character of a different race or orientation to tell that story. But does the author owe that explanation if someone in the audience thinks they are inaccurately portraying marginalized people? I don’t think so.

IdiotWithPencil 2017-11-09 22:26:11 UTC #40

by not searching it and having an anti-crazy stuff echo-chamber, I stay away from gay,sexuality and feminist communities, lest I get sick from all the toxic hate and craziness

also, holy hell on those 5 types...=/ sorry to hear about the bf man =C

nikaalexandra 2017-11-09 22:26:44 UTC #41

this reminds me of a huge controversy that happened earlier this year regarding Dana Schutz's work at the Whitney Biennal (warning, descriptions of graphic racial violence etc). the artwork that came into question (an abstracted portrait of the 14 y/o emmett till in his casket) had many people up in arms over a white woman creating (and subsequently profiting off) a painting depicting an event that was very painful for the black community (many people will argue with me here that she did not make any money off of the painting and barred it from sale post-controversy, but we all know there are other non-tangible profits to be sought in the art world.) The biggest question asked was: Does Dana Schutz have the right to create a painting like this, knowing that it is in no way reflective of her own life experience AND at the expense of the communities she does not belong to? Dana argued that she had the right to create the painting because she felt for Emmett's mother, Mamie, in losing a child. Many, many people did not agree with her. I worked at the museum that hosted Schutz's work after the Biennal, and a lot of our training had to do with educating people not only about the controversy and subsequent protests, but about the role of artists and institutions and their responsibility for sensitivity and racial equality in the US (institutional racism is a BIG THING in top level US museums/galleries, and for these institutions to protect the "innocence" of a white woman over the anger of an oppressed community while continuing to feature predominantly white collections is a hellish rigmaroll that we as a culture really need to shake)

i agree with a lot of other people in this thread in saying that education is the most important component here. tackling stories outside your own experience necessitates tons of research and interviews with people who DO have those experiences (in writing 64, i interviewed people from every religion i could get my hands on because i wanted rounded collections of faith, but i only have personal experience with some of the softer brands of christianity).

in saying all this, i also think its disingenuous to assume that just because you have a platform to create and reach an audience who may not be aware of the issues you want to write about, that you have the right to tackle those issues yourself. you've gotta question your motives for wanting to write a story about the "nuances of the black identity" or "homophobic violence" if you yourself have never experienced those things firsthand. if you're looking for shock value or views you are 100% writing for the wrong reasons and you're going to hurt a lot of people. tact is the name of the game here, and as other people have pointed out in this thread DON'T OBJECTIFY OR STEREOTYPE PEOPLE, that is the devil's way goddamnit!

there are a lot of blogs out there dedicated to helping writers flesh out other cultures/races/religions out there respectfully, but tumblr's writingwithcolor is by far my favorite

joannekwan 2017-11-09 22:29:56 UTC #42

I suppose it also comes down to what aspect of a person's story you're telling.

For example, I have one in the works (script is 95% done) about a trans-male doctor who runs a women's health clinic in a fictionalized "somewhere in Europe", the story focuses on him taking a holiday as he is overworked and stressed from the day to day routine of his clinic, especially by the protestors outside as the clinic offers early term abortions. On holiday he overcomes his insecurities and confronts his companion, an old friend from the military, about their relationship that turns into a budding romance.

I'm not an ex-military, trans-male doctor, who's in his 40's. I don't know at a personal level what he's gone through in those experiences, but I do know a bit about relationships, so that's the focus point of the story. The rest of his traits provide context to where and who he is at that point in his life.

joe_galindez 2017-11-09 22:30:01 UTC #43

Dammit I've run out of likes

IdiotWithPencil 2017-11-09 22:38:57 UTC #44

who the hell is the authority on gays? who has the responsibility to talk about women? who is the male authority? cause I have to talk to him about a story about a manly man
nobody is and authority on anything,

and just cause the guy from moonlight made a beautiful gay movie doesn't mean you can't make a beautiful gay movie, with the same emotion or power like that one.saying that just cause the guy was a gay black man he was able to make a great movie is denying the work,tears,sweat and time he put in into perfecting his craft to create such master piece
he made a great movie cause he worked his ass off to become a good writer/director nothing more nothing else

indagold 2017-11-09 22:51:40 UTC #45

People have been writing and putting gay characters in their work for years now. I really don't get why now of all a sudden you can't. Gays are as mainstream as you can get if you're talking about lgbt people lol

ratique 2017-11-09 23:20:24 UTC #46

Reminding everyone to keep the discussion friendly, not attacking anyone, taking things too personal or making things personal.

Re-read before you post and be mindful that some things sound much harsher when written down than if you would say something in a discussion. Please self edit before I have to do it.

ashersz 2017-11-09 23:25:06 UTC #47

The main point i am reading is one that I completely agree with. DO YOUR RESEARCH.

No one is saying you can't tell your story... so take that panty out your backsides. You can write your stories but please do your research and represent the race/ethnicity/demographic correctly. This forum is a good place to get insight on other groups for your stories. Utilize it and people you know.

hotsubsandwich 2017-11-09 23:26:14 UTC #48

I’m not an authority on... anything. Does that mean I shouldn’t be a writer? I’m just saying, one can be respectful in their writing even if they aren’t the most knowledgeable.

UbePie 2017-11-09 23:26:37 UTC #49

Heck anyone can write what they want and anyone can tell you, “that was bad.” End of that topic.

But I can name a ton of “Lesbian” movies and “representations” that are bad. That are not only bad but are “mainstream” and people think those are accurate depictions. I get harrased in this day and age, badger because of these “inclusive” “representation”. Some people have good intentions make an effort to do research and interview people and they do fine. That doesn’t stop the hurtful stereotypes that pop up. I have literally had a co-worker tell another coworker who is male to ask me out. Because I am a fem lesbian they think if the right man comes around i will flip. Despite being in a 5 year realtionship. And i am sure movies like “ The kids are alright” and almost every other “lesbian” movie where all of a sudden a girl falls in love with a man gave them that idea.

So by writing stories without doing reseach or really understanding you are still causing harm to the still marginalized community.

Plus like everyone else said you have to question your motivation. Why do you want to write that topic? Also you have to question the impact. Some of these examples people are using like that Terentino movie, isn’t fitting into what is being discussed. The movie follows the old white man. We are seeing it through his point of view. He is telling their story through his own, not pretending to be one of them. And as stated the actors involved where part of that community, so i would hope they would have spoke up and added their views if anything seemed fishy.

But relying souly on you experience with some people of some group isn’t good enough. Like the topic that started this thread. Some people seem to think it is common for black people to use the N word, because of rap and media. But as the thread points out not all black people do, so now you have to look into what type of black community uses such words. Does your charcter fit into that type of community? Does he interact with others with an opposing community view. That amount of thought would not have gone into the charcter if individuals from the community hadn’t put in their voice.

emkay 2017-11-09 23:36:27 UTC #50

The tricky word here is 'right'. Technically, we all have the 'right' to write whatever we want? But like you said, should we? That's where I disagree.

I think creators need to accept that some things are off limits. You can be a white professor and spend years doing research on what it's like to, for example, be a black woman, but you will never actually know what it's like because you aren't a black woman. You do not live that reality or have that experience.

And you have to acknowledge that when you write a story about the issues black women face, that narrative consists of your opinions as a white person. And those opinions can easily become 'fact' for your readers. They will believe that your narrative is the true Black Woman Experience when it's not. And your opinions speak over the ones of actual black women, whether you intend it or not. That's part of your privilege.

That is part of how misconceptions and stereotypes are spread, which is why this idea applies to marginalized communities -- race, gender, sexuality, disability, class, etc. Regarding that one post, I don't think soldiers are considered marginalized communities. But there are certain aspects to being a soldier that are -- if they're disabled, for instance.

Many soldiers have physical disabilities and mental disorders like PTSD. There are characters with PTSD in the story I'm working on. But my story isn't about what it's like living with PTSD; that's just a part of the character's life that exists in the story as well. I would never write a story about a main character struggling with PTSD, because I'm not qualified to and I don't want to speak over the real experiences of other people.

I think people disagree because they feel it limits their creative freedom. But still, people have to realize that 'staying in your lane' isn't just to avoid controversy, it's to protect others. If there was no discrimination or marginalization, I'd say that anything would be up for grabs. But that's not the world we live in and we have to acknowledge that. =/

LordVincent 2017-11-09 23:56:57 UTC #51

I think we need to recognize something real quick tho:

Allies who don't talk over or misrepresent a community are GREAT and the stories and support they provide can be SUPER HELPFUL for our fights for rights.
On the other hand, some people that belong to a community can actually be harmful to it. Examples: Lesbians and gays rejecting trans people from the LGBT community, trans people rejecting nonbinary people from the trans community, people with internalized sexism, racism, homophobia or transphobia harming other people within these respective communities, or in the case of trans people there are some detransitioned people who get too personal about their experiences and try to start some weird online crusades of destroying the trans community and trying to make people believe all trans people will "regret" their transitions and that it's just a "trend". Oh and then there's the whole thing where some gay people refuse to date bi people because they have some idea in their mind that they're unreliable sex monsters who wanna fuck everything in sight.

Personally I feel what truly matters, bottom line, is the respect and understanding an author has of a topic. It needs to be proportional to how deeply the topic is looked into in the story or how important it is for the plot.