Does The Reference Matter?

[HGohwell]

Or alternately: death of the author vs ignorance when it comes to controversial subjects and references to in real life situations and things.

You guys know how my posts go by now, you' going to get a story time ramble before I get to the actual point so scroll down to the bottom if you just want the quick version rather than the context behind my rambling. It's a long one so strap in folks.

So, a few of you my have read or watched Bungou Stray Dogs. It's a fantastic piece actually written for an adult audience with some fantastic non-sexualised women and generally very grey on grey world where everyone is damaged and the "good guys" are actually mostly former bad guys trying to get back on their feet, get over their pasts and make up for it without the author every shying away from the fact, or trying to excuse the fact, that these people have done some very bad things. In quick summary, a lot of it is about the cycle of abuse and breaking it and recovering from it as a victim and an abuser.

However, despite all these good points, one of the most common sticking points for western audiences is in episode 2 where we introduced the secondary characters, the Tanizaki siblings, who are heavily implied through a lot of clinging and handiness from the younger sibling to be in an incestuous relationship, although never explicitly stated. And this is the point where a lot of western audiences go "ew it's one of those anime" and switches off. And that's cool, if that's how you feel, no one's disputing that bit. The problem comes when people start getting offended by it's very inclusion and calling it one of those problematic anime just out for weird fanservice and don't understand what it's a references to.

Now, Bungou Stray Dogs has an interesting quirk to it a lot of western audiences don't get until the second season/arc rolls around and so many people who switch off at episode 2 miss entirely. All the characters of importance and with special abilities are named after literary masters. But of course, the majority of the main cast are named after Japanese literary masters we don't know as well, so we don't pick up on it until season 2 where people like Francis Scott Fitzgerald and Louisa May Alcott and Edgar Allen Poe start turning up. Why is this relevant? Because a lot of the characterization is based on their books or the author themselves, especially when it comes to the relationships between characters. Often characters who admired another author in real life, get a close connection in canon.

And this is where we come back to the Tanizaki siblings. The older brother is named after Jun'ichirō Tanizaki who wrote a lot of shockingly (for the time) sexual and erotic stories and was known to have quite the interesting personal life. His little sister is based off the title character of his quite famous even outside Japan book, Naomi. Now, the main crux of its relevance to the characters, is that Naomi and the main character of the book live together, but to stop people being suspicious, play that they are brother and sister. And there is your reference, after so long rambling. Now, weather the characters are brother and sister, or are simply playing at it to excuse a boy and girl living together, we haven't have confirmation either way, but this is the reference being made.

There was a similar, albeit odder, example more recently involving the implied relationship, possibly onesided, between the characters Rimbaud and Verlaine. There was a lot of fuss over possibly having a confirmed gay couple, and "why are they ruining the authors names by turning them gay" and pandering to the shippers. And here's the rub with that. People who understand these are named after real people, but completely missing the point that this is in fact another reference since French poets Rimbaud and Verlaine did in fact have a very messy relationship ending in one of them getting shot (non-fatally) by the other. So famous in fact there's a movie about it in which Leonardo DiCaprio played Rimbaud.

And for anyone concerned about the authors families, it should be noted the creators work very closely with the families where possible, especially those of more modern authors. There's the lovely story of the wife of the villain for the movie was consulted every step of the way and in fact was sitting next to the creators when the movie premiered talking about how happy this would have made her husband. Still living authors get involved to; Yukito Ayatsuji, who many of you may know best as the author of Another that the horror anime of the same name was an adaption of, and Mizuki Tsujimura have the main characters of a spin off named after them, and even Dan Brown got in on the act doing a collaboration to promote one of his later books coming out.

So finally, here's the TLDR version:

If the author is quite clearly making a reference, does it matter? Is death of the author absolute? Or is the fact that you don't understand the reference and inside jokes being made enough to call something problematic? Especially when consuming media that is generally not written primarily with you in mind as an audience. Does the fact that the incest references something matter if you don't get the reference? Does the fact that the gay couple references a real gay couple stop it being pandering to shippers? Does the fact that it's a reference change the way you see it and what you will tolerate? Does it matter how much research has been done into something, or is it's mere presence all that matters?

Wow that was a long one. I need a lie down now.

[joannekwan]

I never really accepted 'death of the author' anyway but I think more often than not it's cases like these where people just don't 'get it', and only take things at face value without further investigating the 'breadcrumb trail' leading to a deeper layer of meaning.

There's a clear pattern that these characters are meant to symbolize another idea (this case being real historic people), why else would they all be named after them? If it were only the Tanizakis that were a reference, then yeah, it would be an oddly obscure one.

When it's symbolism and metaphor used within a work, it's quite important to include that context when analyzing it. And usually if I have questions, I will do some research to see what the work is actually about if I can't make my own inferences.

Back in my day in English class, whenever we we focused on a new book we always learned a bit about the author's background and sometimes the context in which they wrote the work in question. And while reading we always had discussions about the book, like the author's intent, any symbolism, character motivations, finding parallels to real historic events, etc. So this mindset has been ingrained in me from adolescence lol.

Easter egg references though that are just an 'eeeeyyyy' moment tossed in for shits and giggles don't really matter.

[HGohwell]

I never really accepted 'death of the author' anyway

This is one of the major issues I have with the conflict here is that I do generally apply death of the author. Especially in the context of "if it's not in the text it's not canon" and "my interruption is as valid as anyone else". I certainly don't like it when creators try to dictate how I should feel or should read something, if that's how I should feel the piece should have made me feel it. But then at the same time, overall, there are so many so called classic works that are blatantly racist but it's ok because it was a different time, and of course in literature classes we're constantly being told what authors meant when writing (I will never forget that the rabbits represent the American dream in Of Mice And Men and I really hope that's what Steinbeck actually thought of while writing it).

only take things at face value without further investigating the 'breadcrumb trail' leading to a deeper layer of meaning.

I think here is the general problem. If you're simply watching a show for the first time, particularly an anime, if you're not aware these names something do you have any reason to dig deeper and realise they're a reference to something rather than take it at face value. How often do you look up the names of anime characters?

Of course if a show made references to a character called Edgar Allen Poe marrying a 13yo that early on, people would go "wait I know that name" and look it up and find that yes that's a reference to a real thing. But things like the first scene of the show being the character named after Dazai Osamu attempting suicide in a river (the real life was author notoriously depressed, attempted it several times and did eventually kill himself via drowning, as did many of his characters) or the Tanizaki siblings, we don't have the knowledge base to recognize these names and so don't know there's something to research.

So does it change the POV? If someone watches something, let's take the incest example, and thinks "well it has incest that's disgusting" does it being a reference change that view of it and should it? Would knowing it's a reference make it more tolerable in the way knowing a racist book is from a racist time makes it tolerable?

[joannekwan]

So does it change the POV? If someone watches something, let's take the incest example, and thinks "well it has incest that's disgusting" does it being a reference change that view of it and should it? Would knowing it's a reference make it more tolerable in the way knowing a racist book is from a racist time makes it tolerable?

I guess that would depend on the person then. I know there are people who will refuse to watch something simply because character with X trait dies. You can explain to them all you want how good the rest of the story is but if they aren't having it, they won't have it.

[joannekwan]

To add, I suppose it's also like being able to understand a joke.
There is a certain amount of knowledge needed beforehand to fully understand the presented message, either the comedian/story-teller sets it up or its in the news, etc. Memes in particular have whole layers of pre-existing context, which adds to the joke.
If someone saw any iteration of the "is this a pigeon?" meme without any prior knowledge, they might just think it's an odd screencap of an old anime with silly text over it.
If they leave it at that without trying to find an explanation of why others find it funny, that's fine. Nothing wrong with that. There are other people who will find amusement with it.

[33rdCenturyCaveman]

On one hand, it entirely possible that you not intended audience. On other hand, Death of Author am way to try and understand what work mean for you without regard for authorial intent.

On gripping hand, at basic level the telling and consuming of stories am form of play. And play am form of learning. It important not to forget social and cultural functions of whole deal.