Honestly, I was confused with what NagashiKhan was trying to say as well. Like, they've spent the entire time discussing with me that "race and gender don't make a good story" and that people "shouldn't care about representation" yet the last thing they say about this issue is "I'll show you! I'll pass the test! By no means on purpose!" You'd think the last thing they'd say is "I'll write a good story without passing the test, that'll show you!" but that's not the case for some reason. Maybe they do care about representation, because a conscious decision to pass the test is a step in the right direction. I really don't know, this user's been making contradictions the whole way through.
I believe that's called having a "token" character. However that's what the third requirement in the Bechdel Test I set up in the description was trying to address: that these characters are prominent enough to be having plot-related conversation. Also I really don't want to believe that having diverse characters isn't "basic" to a creative story. Yes, plotted stories and character development is important, but why couldn't those stories have diverse people in them? I certainly don't exist "for the sake of diversity", and neither should ladies/poc characters.
That's cool, I wasn't well educated about it either until college when I took writing classes (that helped sooo much). Keeping a ratio like that definitely helped out a lot with my earlier stories as well. Super stoked to hear your stories are heading in a new direction with your understanding of diversity =)
That's alright, this test was mainly meant for longform fiction where you have control over the cast as opposed to "irl" things =)
That's a step in the right direction! Back in the day when there weren't a lot of lady manga artists, the dudes that worked on telling stories for ladies would often ask their wives, daughters, and sisters for what they wanted to see in stories to make it more appealing to them. There is a sliiight difference in masculine/feminine writing, but that's a whole different conversation =)
Sigh. Again, passing the Bechdel test does not determine the quality of the story. It doesn't even determine "equality" in your storytelling. If you read carefully in my description of the forum, I actually wrote that! Here check it out:
I am so tired of repeating myself about this =')
My memory of what went behind Alien is foggy at best. From what I do remember is that the main lead was originally written as a man but was genderbent into a lady somewhat "at the last minute", and because of that Alien is praised as having one of the best written ladies on screen. Again, my knowledge on what went behind the writing process is foggy, so I can't add much to that discussion! However Alien was aware of the tropes set up in horror and was actively subverting the tropes (even in the order the characters died! Notice how the last characters alive are women and poc! That was intentional).
You're going a bit off topic. The Bechdel Test is not something "helpful to creators for the creative process" (you came to this conclusion on your part), it's to discuss cultural trends in media and how we're repeating the same stories in an eerily similar pattern to the point that we can't pass the low bar the Bechdel test sets.
I don't totally agree with this. This article discusses something called "issue vs incidental" diversity. Please do give it a read because it explains it better than I can. The world is big enough for both incidental and issue diversity and one is not better than the other. Also the point you make with American superhero comics making "poster childs" is a bit unfounded especially considering the cultural context. Mz Marvel is a character that is used to introduce Muslim culture to a wider audience. It doesn't mean she will be a perfect character to represent a model for Muslims, but a human side of them that's lacking in media.
I'm not entirely comfortable with the point you made on race with ethnicity. Just because a character is (let's say) Indonesian, doesn't mean they will live in a Toraja house and practice Balinese dancing on the side (I certainly don't). That's a lot of the prejudice that asian-americans and mixed kids go through, that they're not "asian enough"/"poc enough" for their home country. This would be a great issue diversity story though =)
Again, I don't totally agree. I've talked with a handful of writers already working in the industry, and they don't always enjoy the characters they're assigned with. Sometimes it's a mercenary job of getting the writing done and a paycheck at the end of the day. Writing characters that we enjoy is a luxury indie creators have.
Not totally sure about what you mean by "tossing in characters to try and diversify and lead to exploitative presentation". I think you're referring to "token" characters? Those are the diverse characters who are put into the story and are written flatter than their better developed conventional/white leads, to "tick the diversity box" with very little effort. It's a bit odd that you put this point in the same dot point as "Do you enjoy writing the character", kind of making it look like adding diverse characters aren't enjoyable to write. I don't think that's what you intended, but your arguments right now are strangely structured.
A checklist of questions for your story to pass isn't going to make a well-written story. If anything, it makes it more formulaic. If you want to get better at writing, read a lot of writing books. Some personal favorites:
-Story by Robert McKee
-DC Guide to Writing Dennis O'Neil.
Also reading lots and lots and lots of books! Watch a lot of movies, consume so many stories that you start seeing the pattern and asking yourself questions. There's never going to be a checklist that proves a story is good. That would be counter-productive to the idea that stories are supposed to be creative.
