Does your comic pass the Bechdel Test?

keii4ii 2016-04-13 00:08:55 UTC #69

We still live in an era where something like Mad Max: Fury Road stands out as an exception. I've come to expect accessory women characters as the norm, that during the first half or so of the movie, EVERY TIME a new young female character showed up, I caught myself thinking, "oh, is that gonna be the main dude's love interest?" That's saying something.

I can certainly think of shows/movies where the female leads take the spotlight. In fact, it's very easy to think of some. Why? Because they're exceptions, and that makes them easier to remember. Whereas if you asked me to name a few movies where the guy takes the spotlight, I'd be like, "ummmmmmmm... I dunno, a lot of them?"

Harry Potter, for instance. Hermione and Bellatrix are important characters who accomplish a lot of things. But at the end of the day, Hermione still isn't Harry, and Bellatrix still isn't Voldemort. I don't want that to change for that particular series, because that story is fine the way it is. But if that's how it goes in the majority of the stories out there... that's pretty skewed, isn't it? I'm saying that as far as I can tell, that is sadly the case.

And that's just for female characters, who arguably don't have it as bad as certain other groups.

NagashiKhan 2016-04-13 01:29:55 UTC #70

I don't really see how this holds water, because I, on the other hand, would NOT think that. Like, ever. So is that not saying something? That's just a matter of your mind set, how you percieve and break down a piece of media you're consuming. I wouldn't say that really makes an objective point about the state of current age media, I'd say that's how you've grown to observe it, not necessarily how it presents itself.

Hmm, yes, I can see how this makes sense. I was thinking of this as I was writing, I'm glad you brought it up. But is this test about simply who stars in the story, or how men and women are represented? Like, the Transformers movies for example- this is one of the easiest to think of when it comes to NOT passing the Bechdel test, because you can tell Bay is just an industry guy, just another bag of d***s basically tainting this world with it's clear "male lead female accessory" model. But say Castle, for example, also does not pass the Bechdel test- I don't THINK (I haven't seen enough of it, but of what I have, it wouldn't seem so), yet Castle does not at all misrepresent women- in fact, I think their female lead is bomb. This may be a weak example, but even yet it was off the top of my head. It's not an exception, but it still sticks out, I think.

But putting Harry Potter into this equation is very strange, especially considering Rowling's record of being super open about her books- like, this isn't an industry case, this is an author who really portrayed what she wanted in her story. And honestly, what does "she's not Harry Potter" even mean? Who gives a crap about Harry Potter? Hermoine was why we watched the movies, Snape was why we watched the movies, good 'ol McGonnogal was why we watched those movies, not Harry, not Voldemort. I mean, right? Is Harry your favorite character? Is Harry even relatable??

But lemme stop crashing this party, I think this, with any response made,would be a good conclusion to this discussion. People who visit this Topic, who are honestly interested in seeing whether they pass the test, pointless or not, should do so. And thanks for being reasonable @keii4ii, I like having discussions with you, you handle yourself very well <3

dratinigirl 2016-04-13 01:34:44 UTC #71

ElectroMania does! Even though the main characters are a man and an agender person, there are an equal number of women to men in the story. (Three men, three women, and the nb person) The antagonist is a woman, and two of them, a white woman and black woman, are girlfriends that obviously speak to one another a lot. All of them have names and are critical to the story's progression! Though most of the time they aren't having a conversation to themselves, but are present with other in a room and talking to each other and men as well. Of course, I sadly have yet to draw most of these things in, but this is all established within the first chapter and a half 8*)
Here are my girlies if it's ok to show you:

I kind of had in mind from the start that I wanted there to be people of color, and an equal number of men to women. It leaves a wider margin of interest, I think :> and it's fun to draw different types of people!

apocryphagraphics 2016-04-13 02:11:43 UTC #72

Not sure the Bechdal test is a remotely good test of a comic or author's attitudes toward females, but Heroes for Ghosts passes with flying colors. Over half the characters so far are female. Nearly all are people of color/mixed race and of course they talk to each other. They are all strong, intelligent, badass women. It would probably shock some that with 63 pages out there isn't a single romantic line uttered by a character female or male. The ladies may be talking about men at some point, but it's not going to be about how hot they are or how they got their hearts broken by them. Heroes for ghosts is a story about warriors and that's what the ladies are-- extraodinarily powerful people.

Inspector_Spinda 2016-04-13 06:09:18 UTC #73

My comic is titled Mercenary Inn and it is about an amateur mage who joins a group of mercenaries as they try to prove themselves in a world of superior magic.
1. One of the main characters is a female (named Eris). The mother of a secondary character who is planned, but not introduced (the comic is in its early chapters) as well as the main antagonist will be female.
2. Obviously Eris and the antagonist will talk, and the mother will as well to a lesser extent.
3. The mother I want to be a damsel. But in an extreme way. Like Bella Swan 10x except in sort of a sympathetic villain role. So she will mostly talk about her husband. Eris will talk about her grandfather. Does that count? I never really understand this. Talking about PEOPLE is important in characters. And not talking about men is just cutting out 50% of conversation. It should be changed to not talking about men in context to romance or lack thereof. Eris also talks about strength, and people she hates cause they look done on her (not for being a girl though). The villain talks about SPOILERS, but it's not a guy, also Eris, her backstory, and a minor antagonist who is a guy, but they are not romantically connected.
Bonus: idk. What does this really mean in a fantasy world anyways? The villain has purple hair and Eris's hair is red. They are pale skinned, but so are Asians and they are not white, so does that make them a person of color? Despite her red hair I thought of Eris as half Asian, half white (but it is a fantasy world so Asia is not a real thing).

I want to add my favorite manga here if I might:
It is called Lupin III and it about a thief and his companions and the cop who is after them. Basically an episodic heist comic.
1. Lots of girls, but it is episodic so there sort of has to be. 90% have the same name (fujiko mine). She's a play on the bond girl. In every chapter she has a different backstory and bit different personality, but she's always Lupin's rival. The rest of the girls are antagonists with different names.
2. Fujiko is usually the only antagonist whenever she shows up so she doesn't talk to any girls, but in some chapters there are criminal gangs with lots of women who talk.
3. Lol. They talk about MONEY like 99% of the time. It is so tongue in cheek.
Bonus: It's manga. Does Japanese count? If so everyone is of color

successkid2014 2016-04-13 22:35:34 UTC #74

Frankly, it doesn't matter if it follows these rules or any rules. As long as it expresses creativity and is an overall good story. Hell, I have a test of my own called the BBQ Test.

Step 1. Is the story original? If not, make it original. If unable to make it original, then make something else.

Step 2. Is the story good? No? Then return to step one.

Step three is optional, it's just eating some grilled pork, beef, or chicken. Or any meat really, but make sure it's nice and coated with barbecue sauce and grilled to perfection.

Rinse and repeat, my comrades.

demthorshie 2016-04-13 22:54:08 UTC #75

Cosmos Song does have more than one female character, the main character actually being female herself. There are currently 3 female characters with speaking lines in the story and more of them will appear later on, as the comic is still very young.
Roxy hasn't really had a lot of interaction with with the rest of her tribe members yet aside from her cousin Kai and his kids (Phona and Zeo) since Ron's appearance in the story for obvious reasons. She will be interacting with another character soon (who has not been introduced in the story yet.)
Roxy has not yet spoken to anyone else about the Ron incident yet aside from the chief, who is pretty much trying to cover it up. Since the story is only 34 pages in, not every female character has been introduced yet and there will be various times where Roxy does speak to the characters about something other than Ron (even though admittedly he will come up quite often regardless of the gender she's interacting with because hey, foreign! xD)
1. The main character of Cosmos Song is in fact a woman of color! Considering the comic primarily takes place in the tropics, 90% of the cast are actually POC.

jacintawibowo 2016-04-16 06:29:48 UTC #76

Is there a reason it doesn't pass the second but passes the third? I'm curious! Was it the time limit constriction for the second rule? If the convo is not about a dude, then it counts =) preferably not throwaway comments like "catch this!" or "pass the ketchup", but they count as "somewhat passes" =)

I've so been meaning to read this series! <3

It totally is <3

Congrats for passing so well! And of course this test doesn't show the author's attitudes towards ladies, never said it was. Just a test to see if two ladies talk to each other about a non-dude topic =)

Sorry, talking about male relatives doesn't pass the test. The third requirement is to test if your lady character's life doesn't revolve around male characters to the point it's the only thing they talk about. Even non-romantically.
Men don't take up 50% of conversations! There's plenty of conversation topics aside from men: food, other ladies, talking about "the girl herself", the environment, morals, the government, the apocalypse, your rent, a videogame you were playing, war plans, etc. lots of non-dude and non-people topics!

(I used to be confused about this too) Think of it as a character design. If I put your character on a flashcard and showed it to an average person, will they be able to tell that your character is not white? For example, in a fantasy setting if I take Legolas from Lord of the Rings film, he's clearly a white elf. But if I take Gwendolyn from Saga, she may not be human, but it's very clear she's not white either. Same with Garnet from Steven Universe (I use her as an example a lot because of her purple/red skin) she's a rock from space, yet we know from her character design that she's not white. So if the intention of the design is to portray them as POC in a fantasy setting, then it's a pass!

Ooh I always wanted to watch it! I love the style and the charisma the characters seem to have! And yes, usually manga have all Japanese characters, which counts as a pass.

I never said the Bechdel test was a judge of quality or original storytelling. You got to that conclusion on your own. This test is literally just to check if you have two lady characters that talk about a non-man topic. It's a very low bar to pass, and yet many stories don't pass.

Cool!

Inspector_Spinda 2016-04-16 06:44:14 UTC #77

oh, i see. well in that case they do talk about some of things you listed. as for non-white characters. all my characters so far have white complexions. but if what they wear and the culture they follow count my MC is not white.

jacintawibowo 2016-04-16 06:53:04 UTC #78

In a perfect world, race, gender, and religion, shouldn't matter. We don't live in that world. Regardless of you feeling that way, it doesn't change the world we live in. That's ignoring the problem. We are not shallow for wanting to be seen and acknowledged respectfully in film. You say we should "relate to a character" on a personal level regardless of race and gender. We've been doing that with white male leads all the time. How is it when we ask for an asian or a black character lead, it's "why can't you relate to our precious white male characters? You should be able to relate to people regardless of race and gender!" My response is: why can't you relate to people regardless of race and gender? Is it because you don't find asian or black characters relate-able? Sounds like a double standard.
Literally just this past week two big budget films (Dr Strange and Ghost in the Shell) are white washing Asian characters. This is widely being talked about in creative circles. This is still a problem today. Even if you don't see that.

That's...why I made this thread. To ask people in the community if they passed. Don't get me wrong- I anticipated that most people would pass. Webcomic artists are diverse individuals who don't have to appeal to an editor, middle man, or industry to make stories. They make the strangest stories I've ever read with plenty lady leads and characters of color. I was simply curious about this community in general.
Also I'm not saying anyone's being indoctrinated here. I'm saying that there's an understandable chance people are being influenced by the stories of a previous generation of creators. The unique stories we find here are the result of people being aware of the problem and actively avoiding those cliches. Some comics here do it, some don't. That's just how it is.

Thanks? I guess. People will appreciate that. Though you really shouldn't call them "pseudo-righteous or shallow". That's...really mean.
Great that you're making stories, creativity is cool and all... just don't be mean about representation. It's a really hot topic in comics and a lot of people care about it. Don't be calling them names for...adding women and POC characters in their story.

demthorshie 2016-04-16 16:14:28 UTC #79

I'm scratching my head at this somewhat. How can adding POC and women in to a comic be considered pseudo-righteous and of little substance? Are you saying these groups can only be "the other" and not the default?

bakasama25 2016-04-16 16:41:26 UTC #80

I think he's talking about putting in minority characters for the sake of "diversity" over such basic things like well plotted stories or character development.

scythe 2016-04-16 17:04:41 UTC #81

"Ouch!" said the nail, "You just hit me on the head!"

demthorshie 2016-04-16 17:54:58 UTC #82

That makes a lot more sense I guess.

JigokuNeko 2016-04-16 21:08:04 UTC #83

I seriously doubt tokenism by itself is capable of ruining a story. Rather, by seeing tokenism in a story you can more clearly see that some characters are very flat in comparison to others (most likely characters that reflect the author's own experiences or wish fulfillment).

For my own stuff, I find it difficult to give it a pass or a fail. I mostly do slice of life romances and while female characters may start talking amongst themselves about other things, they will more often than not end up talking romance. So I guess that's a fail if applied strictly. But I enjoy populating my stories with female characters that are distinct and different from one another and the gender ratio is about 50:50 or slightly skewed for women. Honestly, I wasn't very well educated about diversity when I started out making stories but I'm working on it with the newer stuff. For example, the latest comic features a Latina main character and when I compare her to the mains in my previous stories I can see how they were very much same-y. Not necessarily bad or a carbon copy but enough to see that it was a bit of a character creation rut. Ultimately I think it will always help the narrative if the author is willing to see past their own little bubble.

Vikiro_Hop 2016-04-17 19:30:10 UTC #84

This thread became a lot more interesting as it went along.

The short of it is no, my gag comic is based on me and my friends in a parody of sorts and has very few characters. Technically it passes the first and third but to be honest that is sorta stretching. Most of the comics are just the main character (male) talking to some other people so it doesn't really have a lot of room for that. That being said one of the two female characters is way more developed than any of the other recurring characters in the story. (working on that)
That being said it's a dumb gag comic and most of the characters seem like they would rather be anywhere else so I dont think not passing this test in my case is a big deal.

On one hand using representation as a check list for each story is stupid in my opinion. Throwing in characters of race or gender for the sake of representation is disrespectful, and your writing will not really benefit because of it.

On the other hand writing female characters from a male perspective is not that difficult. There is not some other language you need to learn, girls are not an alien species. If you recognize the physiological aspects of it and just tweek a few things its not that difficult.

I remember specifically wanting to go out and write women protagonists and worrying that I would just come off as a complete idiot. So i decided to read some works by female writers and artists. I started with ranma and fruits basket (did not get far into fruits basket for a number of reasons.) The more I looked into it though, the more I decided that the writing doesn't change much. Chicks and dudes are surprisingly alike.

hushicho 2016-04-25 01:40:54 UTC #85

The whole "test" was based on a cynical joke strip, and it's really become overblown. As someone has noted (and correctly), The Bikini Carwash Company passes the test as-is, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's an egalitarian oeuvre.

The strip, as I recall, was talking about Alien. Alien is a notable film for a number of reasons, but one of those is that during the scripting phase, the characters were referred to by surnames only and did not have gender attributed to them until the parts were cast, which was by who seemed to fit the role best. All of the characters had more going on than fixating on someone of another gender (and in the original script, it was discussed that due to the long hauls the characters did, they tended to help each other out in the intimacy department).

I do applaud efforts to introduce more diversity organically into storytelling, but I think this would be better retooled into something more helpful to creators and the creative process. Like asking, for example:

Do your characters have lives outside of the main conflict, or do they exist only for the main character? It's a tempting tendency to have characters outside of the protagonist be basically window-dressing and nothing more. If characters never show any personality besides their function as accessories to the main protagonist or perfunctory roles to advance the plot, it may be worthwhile to think about developing them a bit more.
Are they defined by their gender, ethnicity, or something like that? It's an unfortunate tendency, especially in American superhero-genre comics, for characters to act as "examples" based on one or two social labels. Does the character have more to them than that, or are they just a "poster child" for one or more social labels?
Are you conflating race with ethnicity? They are not the same thing, and wiping out or denying a character's ethnic, social, or cultural heritage based on their appearance or skin tone is not only not okay, it's limiting in terms of narrative too.

And perhaps most important of all:

Do you enjoy writing the character? Because if not, maybe you should concentrate on characters you enjoy writing. Just tossing in characters because you think it's expected, to try and diversify, can lead to exploitative presentation, and it can cause resentment both in the author and readers.

I am glad it was pointed out that the Bechdel question is a bit long in the tooth by now. I just wish we could come up with some solid questions that would help creators to be mindful of what they're creating and why. There's no such thing as a foolproof test, but by asking questions and using a fairly Socratic approach, we surely can help creators to strengthen and develop their creations.

TheVoidchildProject 2016-04-25 08:23:32 UTC #86

My comic Voidchild can be found here:

https://m.tapastic.com/episode/323459

The premise so far is very introductory. My protagonist so far has just arrived in
The fictional city of Victoria, a hotspot for paranormal occurrences. She herself possess some sort of paranormal ability, not yet thoroughly explained. She gets pulled into one of the many intrigues happening in this city before she knows it. The series is characterised by mystery, super powers, action, melodrama and hopefully sprinkled with a bit of humour too.

As for the questions:

Q: Have more than one female character... (preferably named, and have spoken lines)

A: Yes it does.

Q: ...That talk to each other at some point in the story... (preferably hold a conversation as opposed to saying a single line to each other)

A: I can think of two examples so far, but honestly I'm not sure it'd qualify through the Bechdel test. Because the conversations are kind of brief. It should in the future.

Q: ...About something other than a man (preferably not a filler conversation)

A: So far there are definitely conversations in the comic that qualify for this. But as stated above the conversations are brief. As my main two protagonists so far are female and male and have the most exchanges it kind of makes this a bit difficult.

Good idea trying to run one of these tests.

Shanny8 2016-04-26 03:48:00 UTC #87

Does my comic...

Have more than one female character... Yes. 2 single moms, the female lead, and a villainess.
...That talk to each other at some point in the story... yes. The 2 single moms are next door neighbors, with the female lead being the daughter of one of em.
...About something other than a man - at this point, I cant say. The fem lead & the villainess have a talk in regard to the male lead, but it wasnt the garden variety convo(unless a talk about claiming corpses fits the bill).
...Are there any women of color in your story? YES. The fem lead is an African American(which of course makes one of the single mothers AA), and the villainess is Asian.

shruggs.

UrMom 2016-04-26 04:46:49 UTC #88

My comic, 'Void: A Guide to a Healthy Relationship' is about a guy named Apollo running into a janitor who looks eerily like his deceased childhood friend, and proceeds to be this persons bestest best friend in hopes of rekindling a long lost friendship under the assumption this person is his friend.
1. Yes, most of the people around my main characters are females.
2. A lot of them work together, so yes.
3. I've never been able to relate to people doing "guy talk", and get kind creeped out when trying to make characters do it, so yes. Although I'm not sure how much it counts if they talk about a non-binary at some point who was AAB male.

Despite this, I'm not sure whether my comics would pass the Bechdel test or not. While I do have multiple females in my comic, none of them talk about dudes, and most of them are significantly more accomplished in something than my male characters (seriously, I tend to make chicks doctors, or scientists, or owners of profitable business, or generally chalked full of this earthy wisdom if they're old ladies, while my dudes are like... deadbeat drug addicts); none of them are main characters. Which I feel should be important seeing as how having super awesome females in the lime light gives better representation than them as super awesome side character, and it's insanely rare to female mains in a story.
I don't feel very comfortable saying I pass a test about females, when my three main characters are two dudes and a non-binary.