Honest discussion about "UNPAID collabs"

[Hodge]

I still do unpaid collabs, but its really just me wanting to draw something pressure free. I keep them casual and writers don't usually mind since I'm hands off with the story while they get some artist to draw their stuff for free. Its just a quick (relative of course shit still take a long time) easy project and at least I'm making something to put in my portfolio or gain fans or practice. Basically I'm using a writer to scratch an itch, so don't really care if its just 50/50 unpaid. I think of it like fulfilling art requests or the like (which I've done countless on this forum). It's fun, lighthearted, and mainly for my own enjoyment.

However, I have tried to seriously do the super long epic fully colored comic collab with a writer (unpaid of course). And he was a pretty good and involved writer that I didn't mind 50/50 much. I took it serious but after a few months it was just too much for free. Took a lot of time and effort. After making 70 panels for free and really good initial reception you'd think some payment, any really, that wasn't way way off in the future would be a reasonable expectation. Its easy to get drawn into the initial excitement of a project, but ya gotta keep long-term in mind.

[monotone_ink]

I believe unpaid collabs are fantastic when both parties have a common goal they are seeking to achieve.

With how unpaid collabs are sought in this forum, both parties are practically strangers to each other - thus, there's a sort of disconnect, and it's likely that the project never takes off.

However, when both parties are practically friends, it is more likely that the work takes off and goes smoothly - this is because both parties communicate with one another much closely, and have equal levels of input and control throughout the entirety of the project.

When it comes to participating in unpaid collaborations, I think the best way to do so is to only go into projects that are simple, small, and within the scope of both parties' abilities (e.g. It's something you could finish in a few months or something).

Take a look at the inspiring story of this vocaloid artist named ryo - he made his success purely through collaborating with various artists and making something both parties equally contributed to:

Also, this video would be helpful for most people on this forum.

[fuyudust]

I think unpaid collabs are fine if the thread starters took it seriously and had their plans ready, not just some rough, general idea in their head.
When I click on one of those thread, I'm expecting information: their name, gender, job, nation, languages, old works... Then their story genre, summary, character bio, and at least a script/storyboard of the first episode. And one or two pictures of the artstyle they are looking for.
I would totally interested in working with someone that decent enough to provide those information directly on the thread (ofc they can hide the privative information that they feel uncomfortable to be public, but I would like to know how many time and mind they can pour in the project ).
Too bad all the threads these days are just "hey I have an idea in my head and looking for someone to make it real together, dm for more details", I would just ignore those.

[amortelito]

I think that unpaid collabs are totally fine if both people get similar benefits and put an equivalent amount of work into it. I think the problem is that many posts are NOT asking for a collab.

-Free labor request: Hey, I get to decide what we are going to do, you have to adapt to my style, you have no say on the manuscript just shut up and make those sketches as I ask you to. Send your curriculum, I'm very picky even though I'm not paying you. (yes literally something like this was posted a month ago).

Make my dream manga: Hi, am a kid with no skills for drawing or money. I often fantasize about a story I have not written. Can you make a full manga about it? I would somewhat tell you some scenes.

Let's become famous! : I have this winner idea for a comic, I have the script, I have the idea of making a youtube channel and merch and amazing stuff!! We will share the profits...Of course, we are relying on the idea of the project becoming instantly popular and we will be rich! For now just draw everything for free.

[fleohr]

What bothers me most is that most of the writers who ask this are recently new users like, they just created an account to find a free labor, not even interact with people to gain trust or something. It makes me wonder if they are all the same person

And some create a post and never returns to this forum to see if someone is interested lol. My OCD can't handle these "collab" threads

[kip]

Hey.
If you've been looking around the 'Collaboration' forums, you've probably seen me.
While comics are my hobby, in terms of art most of my time goes on paid commission work. I've also worked (and am working) on paid comics work. I've also done non-paid comic work collaborations with friends and my comic group, as well as with The Comic Jam project.

Personally, I love unpaid collaborations.

I feel like we've been pushing for artist to get payed properly for years and it's kinda disheartening to see so many threads with people from our own community trying to get free work

I completely agree with this statment, but it's importnat to understnad that's not what all unpaid collaborations are. Most of these people are kids, unexperienced, unable to pay, and probably with a pretty shoddy unoriginal high fantasy idea about 4 kingdoms and their epic battle. (Not to say that kind of genre isn't with it's own merits, Avatar tla was great, but at some point you notice a pattern.)

Many of them were passion projects where everyone who participated were highly interested in the final product、

Thiss is what we should all be looking for. Projects we love aren't work for us, just like the comics we write outselves. Working with other people is fun, it's motivating, there's no reason we, as artist, should look at that as work-only. A poject can, without a doubt, gian from having an experienced writer and an experienced artist working together, and both doing it because they love & believe in the idea.

How to know which collaborations to avoid? (general guidelines, none of these are a must)

• Can't say how long the collbaoration is
  (seriously, you'll see me bring this up every time, if your wrtier can't tell you if a comic is 10 or 1000 pages that is the biggest red flag)

• "I won't say my idea because you'll steal it, PM me for more details"
  (Usually comes from extremely young artists covering their magnum opus, you do not want to go there, will cover later)

• We split profits 50/50
  (the chances profits will even be split-able is so low, if your writer is focusing on that you probably want to avoid working on the project. Not to mention, 50/50 is far from fair)

• Incomplete ideas
  (if the writer is only pitching you a worldbuild rather than a plot. Using my own comic as an example, if I said, "it's a story about a guy who hallucinates he's an angel" vs "It's a story about a guy who beleives he's an angel, following his attempt to get professional help during a portion of his life where the hallucinations seep into other people in his life and affect his relationships with them, eventually resulting in a violent response from him to try and understand what's going on in his life.")

• Inexperience.
  (If your writer has never finished a manuscript before. Be it a novel, comics, or something else completely, if your writer is unable to put in that last sentence and call the piece done, don't trust they'll be able to with your story either)

• Self Deprecation
  (This isn't a must, but each coin has two sides. just like artists who're sure their ten-million page comic is going to be the next lord of the rings in comic form, if the writer's going to type up a paragraph about how imperfec they are and how bad their writing is but please work for them anyway, you're likley looking at a bed you don't want to put your head into. the line between self hate and modesty is THick, don't miss it)

• Adaptation
  (the novel is already complete, now the writer wants someone to illustrate it. That's not a collaboration, it's free work, and you shouldn't do it.)

• Magnum Opus
  (touched on this before but here it comes again; don't work on someone's magnum opus. The peice of their life, their big passion project, the script they put 15 years into. Most of the time, magnum opus stories aren't actually good- they're overdone and overthought and overworked, they're long as hell, and the writer has such a stong image in their head everything you'll do will seem like compromising. Don't put yourself in that position)

• Don't overwork yourself.
  (calculate how long the project is, if the writer is asking for 150, 350 pages and you've never worked with them before- don't do it. You're risking months, sometimes years, of your life for a script you don't know you'll be able to go through with and you don't know the wrtier will be able to go through with.)

How do I know which collabs to join? (general guidelines, none of these are a must)

• You want to join a collaboration
  (this isn't for everyone. if you're coming into this thinking 'gosh i can't believe im doing free art for this thing', or 'id rather work on my own projects' you're probably not suited to work in an unpaid collaboration, in which case this thread is pretty irrelevant to you and you're better off saving the heartache for you and the writer)

• Everything I said shouldn't be missing before, exists

• Know who you're working with
  (check out their work, check out their involvment in the forums, ask for their discord and just get to know eachother for a week -and yes, iv'e personally done this. Get to know who you're going to be spending your time with.)

• Communication!
  (the most important part of any relationship. make sure the two of you can talk, about the collab, about the work, figure out your battle-plan, because different artists want different things, and different writers want different things. there is no cookie cutter solution here, so make your own collaboration work for you)

• Take a look at at least portions of the finished script
  (I've personally agreed to work on a project i thought sounded amazing, but then when i read the first few paragraphs i realized- this is not what i had in mind at all. even though we both loved the exact same niche-as-fuck genre and made a solid idea together, in the execution the writer focused on everything i disliked and threw away my favourite parts. this doesnt mean it wasnt a good story, just that it wasnt a good fit for us to work togehter. you can't really know what something will look like..till you see what it looks like)

• Bonus:

• Writer is also an artist
  (this is a BIG non-must, but ive seen that collaborations work a lot better for me when the other person is an artist as well. artists tend to know better what a panel will look like -for example, ive had writers tell me what a room smells like-, how hard something will be to pull off, how much details and conversation can go in one panel. The technicalaties. And sometimes can even help with thumbs, chararacter design, etc)

• Don't join out of necessity.
  (this is a bit hard to figure out but... if your writer is picking you becuase you're the only one willing to join, not because they actually enjoy your work, you're both probably gonna find yourself a bit unsatisfied)

So all of that said, I wish all of you good luck finding your dream projects,
and if you're a writer who went through all those comments and you're looking for an artist..
hmu.

[YaoiParadise]

I'm absolutely loving all of these collab conversations lately because I'm a writer who will be looking for somebody new to collab with soon and it lets me know the artist's side of things, the one I can't possible figure out.

Honestly I take most of the forums asking for an artist as a sort of 'what not to do' when it comes to getting ready to post my own, lol. It seems like there's a lot of inexperienced people here who aren't looking for anything remotely like an actual collaboration, just for somebody to draw their passion project- for free, of course, because they're being so generous by sharing their genius idea...

Personally, I would never ask an artist for unpaid work. If they like my stories and offer to illustrate them that would be one thing, or if they were asking for stories to illustrate and I had one to provide. But if I approach an artist I don't expect them to waste hours of their life on something we may never see any profit from. It's a bit disrespectful IMO; I have quite a few friends who are artists and have worked with them in the past, though, so maybe my experience with them gives me a better idea of how much work they do than the writers who come here and don't seem to have any idea of how to make a comic at all.

I do see people asking more from a forum asking for a collab than I would expect, though (somebody even on this thread wanted practically an entire story layout head to toe). I get that nobody wants to get into a project they're not sure they can carry through with- but isn't part of the fun of a collab getting to create the story together a bit, rather than having somebody just shove their idea at you? I mean if a writer just gives you everything it's more of a commission than a collab, the artist should definitely be getting paid if they don't have much of a say in anything.

[Pandastrophic]

I get that nobody wants to get into a project they're not sure they can carry through with- but isn't part of the fun of a collab getting to create the story together a bit, rather than having somebody just shove their idea at you?

I think artist usually say this because it's safer than getting an incomplete story, while it is fun to create a story together I would never imagine doing that with a complete stranger even if I do like their work, I'd only ever do that with someone I'm friends with where we share the characters and story.
Artists have so much more to loose in how much time they invest in creating a comic, I would personally much rather be commissioned to draw a comic that's fleshed out than start a project that's incomplete, draw a few pages and have to also focus on helping the writer figure out their story. (I don't mind if the story is mostly completed with a few sections that are flexible and can be changed/improved.)
I'm looking at it more in terms of a job though and I know other artist prefer to be involved in the story to be able to create the art, I just feel like it's extra work and I would much rather just focus on the drawing and leave the writing to the writer.

Also just a question for everyone in the forums: A lot of people on here have been saying that a collab is the writer and artist putting in the same amount of effort, but isn't having the artist help with the story giving more work to the artist compared to the writer?

[amortelito]

collab is the writer and artist putting in the same amount of effort,

Oh yeah, I wouldn't say that writing and drawing require the same effort. We literally take about 5 hours to illustrate a dialogue that as written in 6 minutes." equivalent" to me refers that their value and my value compensate each other. I will not underestimate the power of a real master of storytelling.

I mean, I have seen very often how amazingly beautiful comics fall flat because the script is no good. That is a waste of time for the artist too, isn't it? Waste so much effort just to run into a corner. In your original comment somewhat gives the impression that the comic artist can make a good story if they commit to it. But I can tell from experience that some people really can't write decent stories no matter how skilled they are at art. That's why in the comic industry (more often than not) have a person in charge of the story and other to illustrate. To help with the story is not the same as building the storytelling. which requires techniques, research etc. Some comics/mangas/shows go to hell when the writer leaves the project.

That's why I say that not every deal is really a collab, I don't think all the writers can compensate the amount of work the comic artist will put. I agree with Kip's guide to choosing a partner.

Is it not remotely the same work? No, you are absolutely right in questioning the balance of the contribution. But is it worth it, can it be equivalent? Yeah, it can, but very few would fulfill that partnership. You don't sound like someone who has the need for a partner but there are many another artist that is lacking something that other can give them.

Edit: There is this curious case of One Punch man, in which the author is quite bad at drawing but the comic has very interesting concept, endearing characters, and a great story!...therefore they got a more skilled Mangaka to remake his full comic in order to make it a professional publication. That's the balance. They no longer need the author to draw but he is the genius who is telling the story. In this case the illustrator is not the one with the bigger burden.

[kip]

Hi!
Sorry, truth is I completely agree with your statments here but I am weak to pointing out small things and I really feel that I need to.
Again, completely agree with your point, just two small things:

We literally take about 5 hours to illustrate a dialogue that as written in 6 minutes.

You're forgetting a good writer is going to research, review, rewrite, and remake the story several times over before a manuscript is complete. Even if the original line took 2 seconds to type down, research can take hours, and rewriting the story to fit the narrative and fix scenes and improve the overall work can take weeks and months, and that's not mentioning without the context of that line which is provided by the writer, it's meaningless. The artist is, mostly likely, always going to do more hands-on time with the finished product, but it's unfair to bring up 6 minutes work when the line itself couldn't come to exist without hours and hours of work behind it. And that's completely unrelated to practice or experience, every work needs that seperately. Us as artists? Sure, we might need to design the setting, but overall we can come to a page point blank and have it done in two hours works. It's unfair for us to treat writing under the same calculation when it's apples and oranges.
I very much reccomend listening to some writing podcasts (specifically, I love 'Writing Excuses') or reading some articles. Even if you're not a writer (and I'm personally not) it changes perspective so much to know more about the process and behind-the-scenes of one of the most underrated skill in the world.

There is this curious case of One Punch man, in which the author is quite bad at drawing but the comic has very interesting concept, endearing characters, and a great story!...therefore they got a more skilled Mangaka to remake his full comic in order to make it a professional publication. That's the balance. They no longer need the author to draw but he is the genius who is telling the story. In this case the illustrator is not the one with the bigger burden.

Actually, that is incorrect. ONE (the writer + original aritst of One Punch Man) did draw the comic as a webcomic first. After it gained some heat in it's original form (and his manga Mob Psycho 100 did, which he writes and illustrates himself, helped out) his friend Yusuke Murata reached out to ONE asking to illustrate for him. This wasn't the publisher's choice, it didn't make it more professional, it just made it more attractive to first-time-readers. Yusuke Murata actually went against his own contracts to work on this story; I think if anything, that says a lot about ONE's truly fantastic wriitng, and how we maybe need to stop seeing ourselves (artists) as the one's who should be pitched to, and pick up our own pens to write some emails to writers we love.

[Pandastrophic]

You're forgetting a good writer is going to research, review, rewrite, and remake the story several times over before a manuscript is complete.

I completely agree with this due to the amount of research and effort that's involved in creating interesting characters and story I feel like it's almost equal to the amount of effort put into the art.

@amortelito
I think you misunderstood why I asked that question, I'm not questioning the balance between writing and art, I'm a writer too and I actually feel like it takes more effort for me to write than it does to draw even though drawing is more time consuming. The question is purely based on the answers I got from the people in the forums where a lot of people are saying:
A collab is when an artist and a writer are putting in the same effort BUT ALSO a collab would involve the artist in the writing process, so doesn't that give the artist more work to do in the collab and therefore it wouldn't be a 50/50 collab?
(Of course every collab is unique and it's hard to achieve a 50/50 effort in a project but i was just asking to further the discussion)

[amortelito]

Hi Kip! I wanted to explain the points you are saying but the post was already HUGE so I literally deleted some paragraphs "for argument sake". Yes! absolutely. I wanted to make sure Pandastropic and others understood I got the point about the amount of work JUST based on the time comparison. Because it is what was mentioned in some of the comments. Is not that I believe you don't need the effort to write that 2-minute dialogue I was setting the premise of the unbalance perceived by some artists. Later on, I mentioned how the writer has to do their job and they need preparation, I literally mentioned research. The ideas just not come out of nowhere! But again I made the argument shorter to get to the point.
I actually defended storytelling over art in through my comment and don't underestimate it, but I might have been clearer! Thanks for the podcast recommendation! I will check it out
Yes! One illustrated it first I know! I just oversimplified how Murata came to the picture because it was not relevant (don't kill me) for the point (again for an already too long comment). I don't agree with saying that it didn't make it more professional for publication. But anyway the point was how a good concept has the power to overshadow the visual arts skills, which is what is being discussed here. Because at some points of the discussion it seems that the artist is the one who is always investing more, and this example shows is not the case for everyione. Thanks for expanding it and making it clearer!

[kip]

Absolutely, like I mentioned in my first two lines .. twice... I completely agree with your comment, just not necessarily the exact phrasing. And I totally used it as an excuse to gush a little bit about writers, because we do not do that enough.
I actually disagree with your comment about ONE, I believe it didn't take more 'professionalism' souly riding on the fact that ONE himself said One Punch Man is a practice project that was never even meant to go that large, and I believe that just like how he managed (relatively easily, and the remake of OPM and MP100 started publishing around the same time so arguing one affected the other isn't gonna help much, if anything OPM the webcomic helped get MP100 on it's feet) to get a deal for Mob Psycho 100 (which he illustrates) he could've done the same with One Punch Man.
But that's absolutely speculation, and we can probably go on about it for hours.

[amortelito]

a collab would involve the artist in the writing process, so doesn't that give the artist more work to do in the collab and therefore it wouldn't be a 50/50 collab?

Such a long discussion often gets messy. I was also responding to some comments along with the reply
But yeah, about the question...
That's why I mentioned that helping with the story is not the same as planing the storytelling. It would be like the writer giving you some sketches of characters and scenes they want to include. That doesn't mean that the writer is now in charge of the art, it is just an opinion that get transformed later. If that person actually expect to you to write the story with them then is really not fair. A writer without initiative and mastery of their part is not a good partner. In that case, most of the project relies on the visual artist. Yes in that case you are right, there is no 50/50.
Finding a good deal is really hard, isn't it?

Thank you for bringing up the topic. I certainly don't mean to imply that you don't appreciate the writing. Just developed an argument from the original post and some of the replies.

[amortelito]

Yessss Writers appreciation day!!!! Here, have a cookie Please recommend more podcast! maybe in another post because we don't want to interrupt this topic. No, I don't agree with the One Punch man stuff for some articles I have read. Also professional is not the exact word I wanted to use but I don't know how to say it in english XD. Nice to share ideas with you. It's 7 am and I really need to sleep.

Nice to read you all!

[skicoak]

You're forgetting a good writer is going to research, review, rewrite, and remake the story several times over before a manuscript is complete.

I'm not a fan of this form of writers rebuttal in the debate on workload.

It's an implication that these activities aren't part of the artist's path as well. Like we're not up at 3 A.M. redrawing the same hand over and over ect. But artists, are primarily, judged by produced product... not the narrative of their individual process.

But the bigger problem is the defense of an individual process to create implied value. None of these activities, the four R's as they were, guarantee that the hypothetical writer created a better product.

That's something we all pretty much agree on...bring product to the table, not ideas.

[kip]

I came to this from the standpoint of someone who's an artist and not a writer and I stand behind my argument.
I never said the artist doesn't do revisions either, I just count that as something that's inside the 1-3 hour worktime per page. Which is a number I'm bringing from myself, and other artists I know in the communtiy who all have similar time stamps on their work. My whole point in that "rebutltal" (not really my word of choice, but, well-) is that just like artists take a long amount of time drawing a single scene because revisions go into that, writers take a long amount of time to write a scene because they also do revisions.
Does it guarantee to bring a better product? Theoretically, no. Realistically, yes. Practice and research almost always yield better products, because the more thought you put into something, the stronger it's going to get as a concept. If you disagree with that, that's fine, but I'm going to wager you're more or less a lone wolf on the stand that thinking through a project wouldn't do it any help.

If you need to redraw your hand once that's a revision. If you need to draw it over and over almost every scene, that's a matter of skill and practice.
Writers will most likely need to do revisions almost every scene regardless of skill, because they need to match themselves to the artist, and need to keep the full picture in mind. Artists can still come, draw the page, and it's a finished product.

If you're only looking at product brought to the table, and not at the quality of the product (the "ideas") you're just not fit to work on collaborations, pal.

[directorador]

hi.
I'm an artist, musician, composer, writer/author, and much more. For all my skills, there is always someone demanding attention for how to do their own, or even for me to make them something.
I have worked with my brother before on collabs, and to say collabs no matter economics is fun, is an understatement. But I trust my brother, I know him enough to know he's not going to jip me on a publication or future payment promises.
I have also sought artists of higher calibers for my writings, and well, even with payments, and money involved, working with strangers is highly indeterministic. A complete stranger is more likely to take your money and walk away then someone you know in person.
Ya writing is a skill, so is art, and I have worked on both since a young age. I put in the time for both to get to the point I'm at now. I feel that others take these skills for granted, never fully appreciating the hours of content created that isn't pleasing to the artist/writer.
I do want to collaborate in the future with an author, but I would much rather prefer I meet them in person, and work closely with them in my home town where I know I can find them and not be afraid they are just some liar pretending something on the internet.
There is always some young person with dreams of making a comic or graphic novel or story book or a novel. Great, we should encourage them to fulfill that dream. I don't think we should be upset they are trying to find a partnership that works for them. But we also need to make things painfully clear, on subjects of time as you have mentioned, and economics involved.
My current wip is an 11 year old manuscript I have only recently began to make the art for. I spent those 11 years creating pieces of art, most of which I do not own anymore, lost to trash and so on.

I think the biggest problem facing anyone, is the fear of failure, the fear of never reaching a goal. Those fears can cause us to panic and rush things, and make work of low quality. Some of my best works, took weeks, months or years to complete. Often times I would just spend forever trying to invision a story or subject or background, and finally find a working reference or have some inspirational dream or experience to base a work on.

So I dont think we should chastise these authors, but be honest about how demanding their work(s) will be.

And I totally agree that these authors should begin practicing art for their works.

I often get at a point where I believe my decisions in creative venues are final, that it will be that way for all my life. but as my mother pointed out, I have my entire life to perfect my works and make them as I want the world to be able to enjoy.

[HazeAmaze]

In my case I can truly never understand 'unpaid collabs' unless you know eachother really well or are attached to the idea but then again how long will that last? On 'Tom N Artie' I pay an artist to draw the comic (you think that kinda artwork is free?) but multiple artist friends I have tell me about how people try to approach them for free work and these are people who have done comics at different publishers. I can understand that you have an idea you want to get out there but hey sometimes making things become a reality requires sacrifices and hard effort. There's plenty of artists out there who have a great style and don't charge a massive amount (price doesn't always equal quality).

[skicoak]

I came to this from the standpoint of someone who is both an artist and a writer and I stand by MY argument.

I will continue to reiterate that "writers" that try to sell their process as part of their value and use that inflated value as an argument that they are a equal contributor to a collaboration is selling a faulty bill of goods.

And all you are doing is re-enforcing this faulty narrative by adding research, review, and revision as measurable parts of a writer's workload but limiting the artist's time to inside a "1-3 hour worktime per page".

If you need to redraw your hand once that's a revision. If you need to draw it over and over almost every scene, that's a matter of skill and practice.

Are you going to apply the same logic to writers? They edit a sentence more than a couple times then they're not "skilled"? Pish posh! Writing is not some mystical process that gets to be elevated inside the creative arts and play by it's own rules. The people trying to convince everyone of that are themselves writers...and they're using the tools of their craft to manipulate/influence others to their side.

Practice and research almost always yield better products, because the more thought you put into something, the stronger it's going to get as a concept. If you disagree with that, that's fine, but I'm going to wager you're more or less a lone wolf on the stand that thinking through a project wouldn't do it any help.

Your missing my point and ...and making it at the same time.

Practice and research do yield better products but why does that only count as part of the writer's process and not an artists... or colorist...or letterer? All the others SHOW their work and it stands on it's own... the writer tries to sell his process as his value as much the work itself. Show me the writing... don't tell me about all the research... and worldbuilding...and revised drafts...because every other form of creator does the exact damn thing.

If you're only looking at product brought to the table, and not at the quality of the product (the "ideas") you're just not fit to work on collaborations, pal.

Looking at the product brought to the table is EXACTLY about quality/value, if you want to sell me on an idea/story then it has to exist in a form I can judge it on. We judge line artist,colorists,and letters by their product... but somehow some writers think they can sidestep this by telling me how valuable their process is?

...AND considering I've been collaborating with the same collective of artists/writers for over 20 years and we are in our second year of creating web exclusive content for Tapas.... your assessment of my "fit" levels are really wrong....pal.