Honest discussion about "UNPAID collabs"

Glasgwyn 2018-10-27 20:26:22 UTC #82

Yeah, that's what i'm saying, not like you can run when you got born, so not like everyone are some geniuses who'll know stuffs without experiencing it, so i seriously think it's okay as well and actually kind of irritated that people here said being inexperienced is not ok.
And i really agree with that last line, if you're inexperienced and people kindly and mannerly tell you that you don't know because of the lack of inexperiences, and yet, you still don't want to be considerate of others, then it's a problem u_u

SleepingPoppy 2018-10-27 20:39:03 UTC #83

Literally no one is saying it's not okay to be inexperienced. I do have a problem with writers who insist an artist needs to draw their amazing story but they've never actually written that or any other story, and they refuse to even try to write it because "it's meant to be a comic".

I'm pretty sure thats the kind of writer most of us are talking about. Not just someone that happens to be inexperienced. I think inexperienced writers and artists working together to get better is great. It's just hard to match people up when they're strangers. But thats not typically whats going on in the Writer Seeking Artist boards. XD

Glasgwyn 2018-10-27 20:53:37 UTC #84

spudfuzz:

The way it works with my partner is that the collaboration was born both out of necessity and shared interest. Both of us work on both aspects, if it makes any sense. I might suggest ideas but not all of them go in because not all of them are good, but I also assert when he's struggling to work through a scenario that as an audience, I would really hate certain things being done. So I also push him to seek for better solutions. For artwork he'll have the general idea of how something should look that is ultimately based on a practical, mechanical level. I'll be given a list of materials and try to design within these parameters, while keeping in mind general aesthetics. How do I make it work but look good, and keep true to the original idea? (These are the kind of challenges I personally enjoy.) We'll go through revisions for these designs, but I'm still the ultimate authority on aesthetics just as he is on the story. Designs and art do come largely from the writing first, if they're so off-base they will completely ruin his plot so he's trying to ensure there's no logical errors.

Over time you get a really good idea of what the other person wants anyway so it's not as time consuming to figure out as one might think. For this sort of thing to work though, both people have to have assertive qualities. You have to be able to tell the other person when something is bad, and they have to be willing to accept the criticism. Without this there is no foundation for teamwork. Which is why I'm not really going to jump on the sort of "pitches" people offer in the forum. There's absolutely nothing to tell me they have these qualities as a person. It's also not necessarily "co-authoring" as much as it just ... I dunno... world building together? But the point is for me that if I don't get any say at all at what goes into the story or even on any design level, that's where people expect to be paid because there's no emotional investment in the project anymore. This isn't bad, but this is what I consider the "business" version of collaboration models.

Ownership is really just "Written by, Illustrated by" at the end of the day. 90% of the writing is his work, 90% of the artwork is my ideas so to credit it any other way would just start getting into semantics. Co-authoring is really a whole other thing in my mind compared to what we're doing if that makes sense. Co-creating is probably the better word. But again I'd have to stress, situation like these are rare and only come from both people enjoying each other's work. So in that regard ownership, profits, money all this kind of stuff is a lot less of an issue because it's not the point of why you're working together. Those topics would be on my mind a lot more when it comes down to working with someone I don't trust and don't know. But that's also why I don't put myself in that situation, because there's too much risk, even if I'm getting paid. I guess the other part is I don't trust an indie author to have the sort of funds that would adequately compensate for my time. The person I work with I know in real life so there's a lot more accountability and trust that was there in the first place. I don't think unpaid collabs inherently only exist to take advantage of artists.

I just think most people pitching them aren't writers, are either young and/or incredibly amateur, and legitimately, naively believe that promises of fame and fortune are enough to satisfy compensation for the other party. I guess to TL;DR it, they don't know how business works. Or otherwise don't even care that both parties need to mutually benefit.

Yeah same, for me co-auhoring would mean you're involved by half on the story, and that's why i'm asking

Ohh, yeah, i think "co-creating" is more suitable

Same c: I actually never thought of it that way until reading this post

Same here, i also think they're just inexperienced, i hope people wouldn't get way too worked up to those people, they could not mean for anything harm out of their inexperiences, not like it'd kill you to talk nicely D:
For all i know they could be young and what you said might affect them negatively for the rest of their lives D: As i said, not like you'll end up dead by talking nicely D:

Or if doing that seems too hard for you, just don't say anything then.

It's nice we kind of have the same view regarding artist-writer collaboration ^o^

Glasgwyn 2018-10-27 21:17:37 UTC #85

Of course i don't meant literally, that's why i don't write that, i just simply say "people said that", in the sense that that's what almost everyone here are "strongly implying".

Oh, i see.. :o
Well to be honest, if you think about it logically, no one can draw it, even the * insert a popular cartoonist here * if you don't create it on some form first XD And even if after they got told that and still don't change i guess it's a high chance that they're not being serious, i don't like people like that as well :')
That being said, there are other forms other than "story/novel", for comic-making, so like, they can opt for making "script" or "storyboard", though if that's the case, maybe it's wise to say it upfront :o

Same here!

I guess so :o I wish people would stop getting too hype over the fact that they're talking to stranger :') Just like how it's ok that your readers are strangers, collaborating with strangers that have proven their commiment(uhh i forgot the word atm) is ok as well.
Because the thing is, collaborating with people you know not guarantee result as well :') I'm not sure about long-time-like-a-decade friends, but people like quite-close classmates that's deemed "not strangers", might still not cut it for collaboration if their personality and work ethics just not suit for collaboration though "you know them".

Is that so? ;w;

SleepingPoppy 2018-10-27 21:47:10 UTC #86

I disagree that that's being implied. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

It's hard to know if you're on the same level as someone, or if you'd mesh well, when they're a stranger. Any and all collaborations have their potential pit falls. But we were talking specifically about inexperienced people finding each other online, so literally all I was saying is "thats hard".

That is how I see it. You are free to have a different impression.

skicoak 2018-10-27 22:36:32 UTC #87

All somebody has to do is browse the Collaborations board for awhile to see a big difference between what someone like @HazeAmaze is posting and what we're talking about.

One is active on the boards, posts a very specific description of what they're looking for, and is clear about compensation/opportunity.

The others... are treating it like it's a want ad. It's their only post on the Tapas forums or it's a string of posts about looking for unpaid artists. They vaguely post about what they want to do... not what they've done. When questioned about specifics they disappear or want to move conversation to DMs.

And this isn't saying they're all predatory, but as others have stated... Their inexperience leads them to follow bad examples and think this is how good business is done.

On a secondary note, watch when artist seeks writer.

They post samples of art and then we see similarly vague pitches of a Game of Thrones story they'd love them to draw. Where are the 3-4 page pitches that both parties could use to test the waters of how they might work together? Few and far in between.

Yeah, it's a pessimistic viewpoint, but it's born from experience and lessons learned.

Collaborations CAN be great experiences but they can also break you. Choose wisely and with wide open eyes.

MrSpuds 2018-10-28 00:49:21 UTC #88

Well I'm legally blind so I couldn't draw even if I wanted to, that's why I collab. Also because the artist I work with likes doing the same stuff as me.

Glasgwyn 2018-10-29 15:19:30 UTC #89

Well, then i agree to disagree
I see.
I know, i'm not questioning anyway, it's that kind of context

vfinnigan 2018-11-01 02:41:20 UTC #90

This is why most of my work (nearly all of it collaborative) involves a contract, and some of it involves money changing hands up front. The unpaid work even comes with a contract stipulating such. HOWEVER! If someone says they'll pay you in "exposure," don't settle for that if there's something better available that will comp you something - money, hard copies, space at their convention table where you can sell commissions, whatever..

Chroma 2018-11-01 19:09:47 UTC #91

As a writer, it's kind of embarrassing to admit that I used to be the kind of person to post unpaid collabs, with the offer of "splitting revenue". I was way too naive about the amount of money a webcomic can generate, even with platforms like Patreon. It can be really easy to fool yourself into a sense of certainty that your idea is going to "make it big", when any kind of large success will take months or more likely years to come to fruition.

To any writer on the platform, I think that unpaid collaborations might work for short stories if both parties are looking to expand their portfolios a little, but anyone with a sprawling narrative needs to think about compensation. Your comic may make enough money to pay for itself one day, but until that day comes, your artist needs to eat. Maybe that means limiting updates to once every two weeks to pay for their rates, but if that's how it has to be, that's what it needs to be.