I made a video on why you should work for free (sometimes)

[skicoak]

Me maintain that polishing prose writing to the highest standard can take just as much effort as the most painstaking of illustration styles.

You're comparing the act of becoming a better writer/producing better prose to the physical act of the illustrative style.
If you're gonna make that kind of correlation, then you have to factor in all the time the artist spent LEARNING how to execute that style as well.
Drawing a line doesn't start with the most recent time your pencil touched a page...it starts when you first strived to master drawing a line.

[Cavechan]

I have had to do research for writing my comic too since there are things in it that I know nothing about. Like chapter 4 of my comic, much of it takes place in Sippar, Mesopotamia. Before writing, I knew almost nothing about Mesopotamia so I had to research from basically zero. That lead me to read various articles and even a professional paper (thankfully free, though a bit old) on it.

I've also had to do research on many other parts of the story as well.

And still the drawing takes much longer. I can have research done in a week, or even a few weeks, and a chapter still takes months to get through drawing.

I made a video where my partner and I discuss why (sometimes) working for free is a great option. Please take a look and tell me what you think about it!

I started watching the video but I wasn't able to finish it. I found the video to be a bit too much rambling. I think it would benefit from having a breakdown. e.g., Here are the top five reasons why working for free can be beneficial! or the like. Break it up into sections. Maybe have more of a script too since there seemed to be a bit too much talking over the other person or the other person just saying "Yeah" "Yup" etc.

[33rdCenturyCaveman]

Me assumed that both took long apprenticeships. Me been writing and learning for thirty years and me still not finished.

[skicoak]

Me assumed that both took long apprenticeships.

But one of the apprenticeships is based on a standard life skill. Learning how to structure a sentence is a relatively common skill.

If you're equating that learning your writing STYLE took 30 years, then fine. But equating the deliberation of word choice, and such, as a time drain would be the writer's choice and creates no extra value in the eyes of a publisher.

A writer torn between making a character's shirt azure or sky blue in their prose is no different that the artist erasing and drawing the same hand over and over. Neither is creating workman like value in the over pursuit of "perfection".

Both could stay in that creative moment for infinity.

[33rdCenturyCaveman]

Me not sure what you getting at here. Many people can walk, few can dance. Many people can write shopping list or letter. Few can write like Orwell or Palahniuk. Many people can remember filling out coloring-books. Few can find their way around professional art supplies.

Me not sure what you mean by publisher not seeing value either. Do difference in value not exist between bad writing and good writing? How about good writing and better writing?

[vothnthorvaldson]

Ah yes, but your comic is in a fantasy universe (I guess?). You don't need to be super close to reality. I wanted mine to be entirely possible historically (like something you could have passed as an historical fake - in term of story, not drawings - even if it was not my aim (hence not trying to be historically correct with the drawings).

I really do think the research needed would be a months-long, full time job (I spend over 100h on it before giving up. Only started to see where I was going).

But again, I think it's an exception, and, well, it never even got done. Because it's too crazy, irrespective of writing vs drawing considerations. So all it means is "I can think of a way how to make a crazy, close to undoable project, with more research time than drawing time". I mean, I put the story in a slightly different era/localization and the research time drops considerably....

Edit: also, there is a thing to consider: the longer I would make the story, the bigger the ratio drawing time/research would be, because making a longer story would not require more research in a linear fashion. So the fact I'm making it a short story is what skews the ratio. I suppose most normally constituted human should know that doing a lot of research for a small project is stupid. Not me ^^

[Mari]

I came here to see the shitshow this type of thread would cause and I was not dissapointed

[33rdCenturyCaveman]

Also my work was always held to a professional standard. My earliest essays got the red-pen treatment, it didn't matter that I was still a small boy.

My dad was old enough to be my grandfather, and in fact was older than my mother's father. Mom pushed me hard so I could make the most of my time with him.

[skicoak]

Me not sure what you mean by publisher not seeing value either. Do difference in value not exist between bad writing and good writing? How about good writing and better writing?

When folks make the argument that writing can be just as time intensive as art... they always lean into the idea of extended amounts spent "crafting" the exact prose. This both discounts the idea of good/great writing occuring at a quicker pace...and that they're not artists much slower than average because of extended time also "crafting".

In terms of value to the publisher, say Random House contracts me to write a novel. The contract will be reflective of the quality/marketability of the novel... based on my previous efforts or pitch. They will NOT pay me MORE if I take longer to write it .

[vothnthorvaldson]

Intrinsic value =/= market value.

Intrinsic value is also difficult to estimate, while marker value is relatively easy to determinate at a time t.

Most of my favorite writers were very inefficient. I love reading their works, but I would not have hired them. It's very sad, but it's what it is.

Although if I had tons of money, I would totally be interested in large scale patronage, but that would not to pay for a result, but to provide to a creator the right environment to create, whatever the speed or the type of creation. It's a very different vision on my opinion.

[33rdCenturyCaveman]

They will pay you based on the quality of your previous efforts and however long it took to write them.

I'm not saying that prose writing is normally as time-intensive as illustration. You can pack a lot more information into a picture without worrying about audience fatigue. I'm saying that prose-writing can be as time-intensive as illustration because words allow for at least as much subtlety as images do.

[Cavechan]

It's a bit off topic, but not really. The universe my comic takes place in is our own but with fantasy elements in it. e.g., ancient aliens, but everything else would be the same so I did want to keep it as close as possible to reality.

I'm just not an expert so I did the best I could with what's available online. It was online for one chapter, so I felt what I had was sufficient for it. I can see how someone doing an entire story would have to spend longer and possibly consult experts though.

[vothnthorvaldson]

I should really read your story. I have it in my list of things to read and will eventually come to it. To be entirely honest, I first did not want to read it because the style of drawing is not my cup of tea; BUT in a year and a half in the webcomic community, my tastes expanded so much. That's one of the best things about drawing webcomics for me. How much we change when we know a bit how they are made. Also, seeing how styles that I associated with certain kind of stories are not anymore, because of the big reshuffling that does the webcomic community

[Kelheor]

peeking in the thread every half an hour to get adrenaline rush

[vothnthorvaldson]

I'm kind of lost. Why? (Candid question I swear).
It's not bad!? No one is insulting the other!?
It's just a normal discussion!?
Am I that Latin?

[Kelheor]

Nah, it's just kiiinda became the same thread artistsvswriters all over again You guys are doing great without insults, of course :з

Am I that Latin?

Also I do not understand this reference, sorry

[vothnthorvaldson]

Ah yes, you are EXPECTING some mess to occur

Well Latin people may have a bit of a blur between what's discussing and what's fighting Got quite the shock when I immigrated to Canada, and still, I grew up in the, more toned down, Germanic-influenced part of France (but have a Latin family culture on the other side).

[33rdCenturyCaveman]

It hurts my feelings when the people who work with words and pictures downplay the people who work with just words. Like writing isn't its own complete art form, or that it isn't capable of amazing things. If it seems easier or faster, there could be lots of other reasons for that. Don't dismiss people for whom "writer" is a core part of their identity.

[rajillustration]

Eh but in the case of comic book collaborations?

If you want to write slower and more methodically on your own terms, power to you, we all love books like that. But if it's a project with someone else, that's not your time anymore. I would expect my writer to write a lot faster than I draw (and personally I would expect them to write a lot faster than I can write, which is another story.) If you can't fit that budget, it will be hard to collaborate.

Which was the original point this thread was trying to make, the value of working with other people. Personal projects can take forever, but part of why buddy/buddy collaborations work, is if you can divvy up the workload and get polished work out faster than if you did it alone. We see a lot of cool comics where people have worked together, and since it's not in a professional publishing setting, they do informally share both hats. Authors doing artwork like storyboarding, color blocking, and polishing scans. Artists doing historical research, bouncing off ideas, and checking the spelling and stuff.

And honestly, the cost split would be done project to project anyway. It's not always 25%/75% author to illustrator, especially if the author is willing to do more than write.

[33rdCenturyCaveman]

And I disagree with none of those points.