Is DeviantArt broken?

[AngieVX]

I just don't get why everybody thinks that stuff should do something about community, should fix the community. The thing is that stuff can't do it. They don't have a magic button to fix someone's attitude. I can say it shorter though: "Start with yourself". If you get the message, it's good. If you don't, then I can say that I tried. Recently I wasn't really attentive to my fellow deviants and I have no one else but me to blame for loosing contact with some of my watchers. You don't have to do much anyway. A couple of kind words, a simple journal feature can make someone's day. And that's the community, when no one feels lost and useless. We should start inspiring people, caring about other artists, about art. Anyway, thank you for your reply, it means that you do care and that the message has touched you. And that's what matters.

[PotooGryphon]

Recently I wasn't really attentive to my fellow deviants and I have no one else but me to blame for loosing contact with some of my watchers. You don't have to do much anyway. A couple of kind words, a simple journal feature can make someone's day.

Oh totally, hon, no one will disagree that engaging with your watchers/following isn't good or you shouldn't do it (quite the contrary) or even making contacts and friends with other artists is bad (nope, that's awesome). However, if the people running the site aren't doing their part than it becomes a sinking ship of a site.

You're right that the staff can't change the community attitude or opinion, however, they can change themselves as well (like you've been saying about artists starting with themselves, the staff need to try that bit of advice too). And their change is just doing their job by enforcing site rules, discourage art thief, providing better customer service, and having more site mods.

"Start with yourself" to see the change is the world is excellent advice, however, DA needs to meet us halfway there. It's not the community's job to police each other on art thief or following rules, nor do we have power to enforce anything like that. It's also not within the community's power to provide customer service if upgrading to CORE fails and a person needs help. (this is how I see DA as a broken site)

However, I'm glad you're still enjoying DA and are happy there. That's awesome, enjoy is as long as you can.

For some of us, DA isn't the only publishing site out there, friends can be followed on other social sites, and it makes sense that some have decided to post else where. That doesn't make them bad community members, it just means DA isn't for them.

Honestly, a thread about DA and its problems makes more sense to have on the DA forum, instead of here where we're all happily existing is our peacefully nice community.

[AffectedMind]

I just don't get why everybody thinks that stuff should do something about community, should fix the community. The thing is that stuff can't do it.

It can make community better if they would take care of cyber bullying and harrasing other artists, but the thing is if you report someone is flaming on you or attacking you, they just say: block him. That not neccessary solve the problem because it's not that difficult to make another account, or they can track you down and start attack on other websites. So staff CAN do something to make community better, it's not much, but can be done.
And yea, community can't take care of art thieves themselves as well, it's another step staff can do to make it a bit better.

But like @AnnaLandin said, more and more artists keep leaving DA because of many, many reasons. Even I was close to leave.
@CyndiFoster and as always I agree with you, mein freund. Because community isn't everything what will make the site good.

Honestly, a thread about DA and its problems makes more sense to have on the DA forum, instead of here where we're all happily existing is our peacefully nice community.

Yes, but I wanted to know opinion from someone outside DA forums, because like I said, I saw plenty of complains or threads like this one and people were being rude because... you complain. Unless it is a journal. Or maybe I had just bad luck u_u I just don't find DA community as friendly as here. Tapastic became my new home since IB shut down.

[AngieVX]

I don't find uploading process complicated, I enjoy Sta.sh. Of course there are issues, all sites have issues, Tapastic has issues too (hashtags that are nonsense). But I'd like to say that DA has a great stability, such huge sites have generally much more problems with performance. And most people take it for granted. I agree about the structure, but such things are not that easy to fix. Also I don't think the comparison with running pipes is fair. It's not like any problems with a website can damage your furniture or make you wake up in water.

@AffectedMind I actually haven't met cyber bullies on DA. I've read people complaining about them, but I never talked to them. Also I start feeling pretty talentless for not having my artworks stolen. XD

[AnnaLandin]

I don't find uploading process complicated, I enjoy Sta.sh.

I'm sure it works well for some people! : ) It doesn't quite sit right with me, but really, that's the least of my problems with the site.

Of course there are issues, all sites have issues, Tapastic has issues too (hashtags that are nonsense).

Of course! All sites have issues! My problem is, as stated, how I am treated by the admins when I report an issue. Here on Tapastic, I can be certain I will be acknowledged, and that the problem will be worked on. On dA, I've repeatedly been met with an "Eeeeh, why don't you look in the FAQ?" for problems that can't be answered by the FAQ.

I agree about the structure, but such things are not that easy to fix.

I'm not saying it's easy to fix. I'm saying the structure is messy, and that is part of what I don't like about dA. The site was kind of messy to begin with, and the introduction of groups and various newsfeeds and stuff over the years has made the problem worse. It would be a pain to fix now - but since the structure DOES bother me, I prefer not to use dA as much.

I'm not demanding that they fix it right now - I'm just pointing out that it is a problem that exists.

Also I don't think the comparison with running pipes is fair. It's not like any problems with a website can damage your furniture or make you wake up in water.

My comparison about the apartment building was less about the actual shape of the problem, and more about the attitude of those who are responsible for fixing it. I picked leaky pipes because it's a problem buildings have - I could just as easily have picked "peeling wallpaper" or "the carpet in the hallways smells weird".The point I was making was about the attitude of the mods/admins, not about the severity of the problems reported.

Also, if we're talking about serious problems - one of the issues I've had has been with the payment processing done via dA - and matters of money ARE a serious concern that can have real world consequences. The admins didn't care enough about it to even give me a proper answer. THAT is what I have a problem with.

[AnnaLandin]

I actually haven't met cyber bullies on DA. I've read people complaining about them, but I never talked to them.

Also, I haven't had direct experience with bullies, but I HAVE had people make creepy comments, and be very inappropriate towards me - the staff hasn't really reacted to that, either. The block-feature only does so much.

Never had any art stolen personally, but it's happened to friends - and again, the staff doesn't react. Reported artwork doesn't get tended to. That's a serious concern.

[Luie]

Maybe we should revise our attitude and priorities to bring back DA that we love?

Even if the entire tapastic forum community did... whatever you're suggesting to "bring back" the dA community it still wouldn't make a dent, especially with the way the site is set up now. Besides, things die out. Communities break and form smaller ones based on social interest. Tapastic is a perfectly good site to be on instead, especially the forum, when it comes to reaching out. I know what you're saying about doing something instead of complaining, but we're not mods and the people who have been complaining about the same thing on dA get flack for even bringing up the subject. I'm actually really glad to see it being discussed here as this is the first time I've been able to say anything without risking a fight.

...Wait you haven't met the cyberbullies and creeps on dA? Oh lawd do I have tales.

[AngieVX]

I always read FAQ first before asking something XD
I once wrote to a help desk, but I think it's not such a big problem, I just wrote it in case they don't know about the bug I've mentioned, so they could fix it when they have resources to do so. It's not that a developer will fix all the bugs immediately when they're reported. A conflict starts when your expectation and the reality don't coincide. Maybe I just don't have such big expectations from a website (also I worked as a web developer so I kind of understand DA developers and can imagine the amount of work they do).
Sometimes people make weird comments but such comments say more about people who write them than about you.

@Luie Yes, I haven't. I met some rude people, but you meet them in buses, shops... they're not really cyberbullies. They just have no idea how to communicate properly.
Also I don't say about doing something big. Make some nice comments, fav some works, make journal features, it can make someone's day. Also it will help good art to be more visible (and stuff we don't consider art less visible).

[Kayke]

Deviant Art has never really been my cup of tea. I've had an account there for 8 years, post regularly, and have even had my work featured as 'daily deviations' a few times and still have not been able to gain a real following. Not to say that the people who do follow me aren't wonderful, they are, but it just feels like it's a popularity contest that I don't have the energy for trying to get a substantial amount of subscribers.

I much prefer the community on Tumblr, Tapastic, and Twitter. I don't feel like I should have to do a lot of extra leg work to draw attention to my art where on other sites I can just post it and have it shared around and gain new followers. I put so much of my time into making art, that when I post it I kind of just want to be done... not worry about submitting it to groups or anything.

I also agree that the design/structure of the site is kind of a mess. Answering messages and viewing new art from artists I follow is much harder than on tumblr because clicking anything in your notifications takes you out of your notifications... I'd rather have a feed format like other sites.

[AffectedMind]

Make some nice comments, fav some works, make journal features, it can make someone's day. Also it will help good art to be more visible (and stuff we don't consider art less visible).

Didin't we already? (I mean I always try to write something nice and not just fav and run), making feature journal at least on my account, would indeed make someone happy, but it would be only seen by people I featured... None really reads journals. My fanbase isn't super huge, but I never got a comment on journal unless I feature something. It's hard to be seen on DA, if you are small not many will see your little corner of adoration. Tho I'm planning to do one, but directly on my front page, not necessary a journal. To be honest I don't know how super active you have to be on DA now so people can notice you.

I've had an account there for 8 years, post regularly, and have even had my work featured as 'daily deviations' a few times and still have not been able to gain a real following. Not to say that the people who do follow me aren't wonderful, they are, but it just feels like it's a popularity contest that I don't have the energy for trying to get a substantial amount of subscribers.

Perfect timing.

I much prefer the community on Tumblr, Tapastic, and Twitter. I don't feel like I should have to do a lot of extra leg work to draw attention to my art where on other sites I can just post it and have it shared around and gain new followers. I put so much of my time into making art, that when I post it I kind of just want to be done... not worry about submitting it to groups or anything.

Such a perfect timing. Just about what I was writing.

[Luie]

I'm using "cyberbully" in a colloquial sense here. Of course they aren't, this is just what they've been dubbed by other members of dA. And I'm not just talking about a rude comment here or there, I'm talking about a string of accounts set up to flag art, or cause a fight in the comments section to steer content creators with controversial topics to have to disable comments. Hell, I've even seen comic creators disabling comments because if people arguing.

As for changing my attitude about dA, I feel like I am making a bigger difference supporting content I enjoy on Tapastic rather than on dA. After all, that mechanic is a feature of each site, but it is on such a huge scale in dA. I have friends I've been supporting for years on dA and it has not made a difference in their popularity, especially from my viewer base to theirs. Of course I'm still supporting them as friends, but I've given up using that site for the same purposes I once did and by the looks of it a lot of people here have too.

[AngieVX]

My journals read more people than I expected XD People rarely comment on our journals unless we ask direct questions ABOUT THEM or choose really HOT topics (art thieves, rude people, DA being a bad website... XD). The trick is to talk to people who can be interested in our artworks, not only to super popular artists.

[AnnaLandin]

I always read FAQ first before asking something XD

Me too! I do the same on every site I use - the FAQs are there for a reason. : )

I once wrote to a help desk, but I think it's not such a big problem, I just wrote it in case they don't know about the bug I've mentioned, so they could fix it when they have resources to do so. It's not that a developer will fix all the bugs immediately when they're reported.

Hey, if they had just said "Oh, thank you for reporting it, we'll put it on the list of things to fix!" or "It's a known problem, we're working on it!" I wouldn't have minded - but I have, consistently, though the ten years I've been on DeviantArt, been met with outright rudeness from the admins/mods. When I reported the payment issue, I was basically told that it was not their problem, and they didn't bother answering the other half of my questions (which were to do with the membership privileges).

I'm fine with fixes taking time - there have been lots of issues with the stats here on Tapastic for the last month, but the staff has let us know that it's because of some database issues and that they're working on it. And that's okay! There are no magical fixes for bugs! But unlike the dA admins/mods, I've never felt vaguely insulted after talking to Tapastic staff-members.

Sometimes people make weird comments but such comments say more about people who write them than about you.

It does say more about them, yes. But I also don't feel comfortable with the comment-threads below my devations filling up with sexual advances or outright hate-speech (directed at someone other than me, but still a problem). There have also been a few instances where I've stumbled across neo-nazi accounts on dA, which clearly breaks their ToS-agreement, but which haven't been dealt with either, despite being reported.

My final two cents on this is that dA has problems that go well beyond the attitude of its userbase, and that the usability of the site and the attitude of its admin/staff (and NOT just their speed in fixing issues) lie at the heart of that.

[AngieVX]

The stuff actually said that to me, I mean "Thank you for letting us know".

[AffectedMind]

The trick is to talk to people who can be interested in our artworks, not only to super popular artists.

I didn't even said that... My point was, the more popular you are the more feedback on your account, not to hang out with popular ones to get popular or recommended by them... Even if, you wouldn't gain many watchers because, like you said, they wouldn't be interested in your kind of art.

[AngieVX]

Sure, the more popular you are, the more feedback you get, it's natural. But it's not only about popularity, or about profit, it's about being happy because you've made someone happy. Find a good artwork with no favs, or only a couple of favs, write a comment... the artist will appreciate it.

[Vikiro_Hop]

Yeah I never got super into Deviant art, but posted there pretty regularly for a while. I kinda stopped when they made uploading more of a pain, (I liked uploading a lot of stuff at once and had no intention of paying for the privilege.) In retrospect that probably helped keep people randomly spam uploading so that's good i suppose. Most of the stuff I posted got a little bit of kind feedback but it never took off for me. I went back after a few years and made a new account, and the community just seemed super diluted with the same stuff.

@AngieVX I think it's awesome that Deviant art is working well for you, and that you feel strongly enough to defend it here. Like I said earlier a lot of my issues with the site are more about my tastes than the actual site itself. What I think people here are trying to say though is that the site has really gone down hill, and for that reason a lot of people are leaving it. The fact is a lot of artists only have so much energy to put into stuff outside of creating, so a site that has a deteriorating community or a staff that doesn't care is just gonna be off putting. Positive attitude is commendable, but it sounds like there are some pretty big flaws with the site that the admins/mods don't feel the need to address. I know you mentioned not having faced any cyber bullying, and that could be due your perspective, the people you attract with your work, or just plain luck. In the end though even I'm aware of that there is some creepy shit that has happened on that site. Which is why its been starting to get a bad rep.

When sites get this way it's really hard (dare I say impossible.) to bring them back, and it doesn't look like the people in charge or the community are taking the steps needed to. Reminds me of a certain website where a lot of youtube animators got their start.

In the end I think the site is just over grown, which happens to the best of sites. I was definitely looking for something a bit more tight nit, and I feel like if I found it a bit earlier I would have loved Deviant. Now it seems like a hulking mess of a site with bad UI and a lot of weird shit.

[Luie]

a lot of weird shit.

I remember when I discovered just how weird the shit got. The babies, the sanic balloons, the...

tied up children will ballgags

[AngieVX]

I understand what they say, and I understand that they are leaving. I really do... I understand their feelings. Don't you think I felt the same? But then I realized that instead of putting efforts into improving and communicating I only waited for people to like my art. Blaming DA stuff, or the algorithm, or other people doesn't help, it doesn't make you a better artist. It makes your angry. It's counterproductive. And it's not about bringing back people, it's about trying to bring back the atmosphere, the support that I felt from DA community. Besides I think it's unfair to say that DA stuff doesn't do anything, because they actually try to fix some issues. And if you ask me, the first issue is groups. I would put a global limit so a user could submit in groups let's say up to five deviations per week. It might be five different deviations in the same group, or one deviation in five groups. They would get rid of spam.

[Vikiro_Hop]

Fair enough, I'll admit I'm not terribly good about going out of my way to communicate and with that site it seemed overwhelming. I am glad you were able to see past the problems with the site and get something out of it. I wish you all the best with it.