Let's talk about booze

DokiDokiTsuna 2019-02-19 10:50:03 UTC #42

That's really interesting. '_' I actually didn't know laws about alcohol could vary state-by-state (although, I feel like I remember hearing something about the ability to sell alcohol on Sunday here in Georgia...either we can't do it, or we used to not be able to do it...)

Okay, I can understand saying they aren't 'psychoactive' (I found them under that definition when I looked 'em up, but it is pretty subjective), but to say they aren't drugs?? Pretty much anything can be called a drug! What distinction are you trying to make; that it's not sold on street corners? Just because something isn't cocaine doesn't mean it's not a drug...

OKAY OKAY I really wish people would stop explaining that one. YES I know drinking too much water can kill you; taking in too much of ANYTHING faster than your body can process it will eventually kill you; I'm not a complete ignoramus, that just wasn't the point I was trying to make right then...

That's the point, right there. You said it yourself: alcohol may exaggerate something about a person. The only thing I'm trying to prove is that NOT EVERY SUBSTANCE ON THE EARTH HAS THAT SAME POWER. Alcohol is one of a special few compounds on this earth that can inebriate human beings, and that MATTERS!

As pigheaded as it is to come from an ultra-conservative place and claim that alcohol is the root of all evil, I think it's just as bad to look at it from an ultra-liberal view and claim that it doesn't affect people much, if at all. Alcohol may not be the only reason people do stupid things when they drink it, but it is part of the reason, whether you want to admit it or not. And THAT is why some cultures choose to be careful/restrictive about it; some more than others.

Now can we please lay this silly argument to rest?? I started this topic to learn about hangovers, not to stand on a soapbox. I was kind of hoping I wouldn't have to talk at all in this thread...

HGohwell 2019-02-19 13:14:04 UTC #43

Not to argue with a lot of what you're saying, but over here in the UK alcohol is widely acknowledged and accepted as a drug. We're taught so in school. As is caffeine. The general consensus is "if it alters something it's a drug". It's often considered in the same way as nicotine. So @DokiDokiTsuna is right that it and caffeine are highly normalized drugs in the way smoking used to be, and we all know the damage that can cause now. For instance, the UK has recognized caffeine as potentially dangerous, particularly in energy drinks, and has limited high caffeine content and all energy drinks to over 16s in a similar way to alcohol being limited to over 18s.

LordVincent 2019-02-19 14:20:15 UTC #44

Is noone going to make note of the fact that both alcohol and caffeine when consumed in reasonable amounts have been scientifically proven to have positive effects on the body and life expectancy, whereas smoking and drugs like cocaine and heroin have more dangers than benefits regardless of consumption level?
Low regular consumtion of alcohol is theorized to prevent alzheimers, among other things. Just one example.

The only thing we usually think of as a "heavier drug" that has medical or positive effects when used in reasonable amounts that I can think of is weed.

Also, everything alters something. If I stand up right now, my state has been altered. Altered state is just the nature of movement. If we are going to avoid everything we like/that can be potentially positive for us, either socially, emotionally or physically, just because there is a risk it could go bad, then noone would do anything. Ever.

If we are going to start calling caffeine and alcohol "drugs", then we are going to have to agree that not all drug use is negative for your physical health and emotional health, and that some drugs when used to certain extents can even be positive.

The reason people are bringing these things up is because you kind of talk about alcohol with a holier-than-thou attitude. You compare it to drug use, bring up all the stupid things people supposedly do when consuming it, and basically turn alcohol use into a strawman.
If you don't wanna drink, that's fine. But if you are going to act high and mighty about that choice and talk to others as if they do what they do because they are uneducated or ignorant about the topic, then people will have a problem with that and some of those people will express their concerns with your approach.

HGohwell 2019-02-19 14:30:56 UTC #45

I wonder if this is a cultural thing then because over here that is exactly what we're taught. It goes without saying because we're taught them all in the same talk. As I said "if it alters you it's a drug" although perhaps that should be reworded to "if a substance alters you". We're quite clearly told they're things like "prescription drugs" or "over the counter drugs". It's made abundantly clear that drugs are used for all sorts of things, especially medical. It's a well know, if slightly inaccurate joke, that morphine is just medical heroine. There's a reason pharmacies are called drug stores after all

DokiDokiTsuna 2019-02-19 16:18:26 UTC #46

I'm...actually not doing that. Any of that. Personally, I don't see the appeal of alcohol, but I don't have anything against it or people who drink. After all, I started up this topic specifically to LEARN MORE about alcohol use.

I think maybe you read a "holier-than-thou" attitude into my words simply because I happened to be saying negative things about alcohol in a thread where most people weren't. Am I supposed to apologize for that? I mean, I wasn't lying. =/

If alcohol is so sacred to you that you can't bear for people to even mention its negative effects without accusing them of "strawmanning", I think the problem lies with you, not with me.

LordVincent 2019-02-19 16:31:22 UTC #47

Listen here, all I did was tell you why people are reacting the way they do to your posts, seeing as you seem to be taking issue with it and it seems to be a reoccuring problem for you. You do with that information what you will, you are free to reject/ignore it and keep doing what you do. But don't expect the results to be any different.

vothnthorvaldson 2019-02-19 16:44:33 UTC #48

@DokiDokiTsuna

If I can say something, as someone pretty neutral in that alcohol debate:

I think the issue is that you clearly like coming with controversial subjects, which is okay, and you generally present the first message as being informative or simply questions to discuss; however it's debatable whether these questions or information are neutral or if they are biased. Also, I have no idea if you realize it or not, but you sometimes sound very peremptory.

I understood you are learning a lot of things lately with your studies, and your enthusiasm and curiosity is nice to see, but maybe you are going too fast. You sometimes make it sounds like you're a specialist of whatever you discuss, which obviously will annoy people. On a large site you'll have a huge number of people who are more expert than you in at least one a facet of the issue discussed; also some people with no specific knowledge will get simply annoyed at the peremptory tone.

I think the choice is yours: either be a bit more careful on how you handle controversial topics, or accept the fact that you will get a fair bit of critics.

TheFireDragon 2019-02-19 16:53:47 UTC #49

Me and most kid's parents I knew growing up gave it to us at a young age anyway for that exact reason My mom would make me a pepperment patty everytime I was sick and it would always make me feel better.

I think the experience/law changes with every state. Heck if I know ¯_(ツ)_/¯

TheFireDragon 2019-02-19 17:10:24 UTC #50

Ayyy! if it helps anyone, I think I found the recipe my mom used. I think she adds a little extra chocolate and vodka though. It tastes amazing with pasta on the side too. Stay thirsty my friends...

charliesackett 2019-02-19 17:33:01 UTC #51

I was pretty much a functional alcoholic for a little while there and I spend a lot of time at bars because that's where bands are. Feel free to ask me anything.

First off, hangovers are worse if what you're drinking is high in sugar, and they are worse if you don't stay hydrated. They also aren't all made up of the same symptoms. For example, you can have ones where it's just a sharp headache and a dry mouth, which I've found are particularly acute and horrible from red wine. Worse ones are often accompanied by something colloquially known as 'room spins'. This is the sensation that everything is spinning even when you and everything around you is still. Any slight move makes you feel like you're on a horrible tilt a whirl ride you didn't sign up for, so scrolling on your phone or moving your head too quickly might make you throw up.
Greasy, terrible food often helps with a bad hangover. My personal favorite cure is a big mac and orange juice.

TCoopComics 2019-02-20 00:43:25 UTC #52

Really? I’m well travelled and attended an international school for a bit and can honestly say that some of the craziest people I’ve drank with have been European. German. English. Irish. Russian. Like, insane drunks. Breaking things, peeing on things, stripping, dancing, sex etc. My fathers entire family was born in Germany, and a good portion of them are alcoholics. I do see the harm of making alcohol taboo, and (speaking as a Canadian) the USA does unnecessarily stigmatize things (weed, booze). I do like Europe’s views of booze and teaching responsible consumption at young age. But man, Europeans (or anyone, for that matter) can get ridiculous drunk and that’s not because of cultural inhibitions. It can be because of age, over consumption, personality etc.

vothnthorvaldson 2019-02-20 01:27:31 UTC #53

By random chance, I suppose, you got to see the European countries that have the strongest culture of binge drinking. And Russia, although geographically for a part European, has really a different relationship with alcohol compared to the typical European country.
Also, every country has its internal variability. Depending on regions (eg. In France both Burgundy and Brittany have strong alcohol cultures but they are incredibly different); demographic, etc.

I generally found more pressure for drinking often and with meals in Europe, and more pressure for overdrinking at parties in Canada, but I would not give too much credit to that as I can compare a lot of European countries, while I rarely go out of my province (SK) in Canada (so that it's more a comparison of Europe vs SK, not the whole Canada).

TCoopComics 2019-02-20 01:59:06 UTC #54

Fair point! I just think that while the USA is conservative, I don’t think that this necessarily is why the parties are so crazy. I think that’s a really hard question to answer and tied with a lot of other things (age, stress, ease of acccess to alcohol, temperament, psychological factors). Because if it was simply conservative countries= crazier drunks and more liberal countries= civilized drinking, then you’d never see a super drunk, crazy European (which I’ve seen lots :P). I found an interesting article on drinking patterns around the world https://www.alcohol.org/guides/global-drinking-demographics/

Now, this is NOT to say that there isn’t binge drinking culture in the USA, or in Canada. There is an it can be dangerous to teenagers and adults alike. I’ve seen it and fallen victim to it, and it’s scary. However, binge drinking can be found all over the world and isn’t strictly tied to being conservative.

Shanny8 2019-02-20 02:09:07 UTC #55

Depends by county...most counties in the metro Atlanta area do sell alcohol on Sundays now.

Azifri 2019-02-20 02:20:17 UTC #56

I agree with you that there are many factors that influence how someone reacts when drunk, and any person can get crazy drunk. Still, my experience is quite similar to what Vothn said; here in Switzerland for example, in general you drink small amounts but more often, mostly wine and beer. In the US (I was in the east coast, VA/DC), binge drinking was more of a thing, and beer and distilleds were more common than wine. Even one of my American professors, who had lived in Holland, would talk about the cultural differences.

There are many studies around, and in general they all point to alcohol being one piece in a larger puzzle in which culture plays a huge role. In fact, just saying "alcohol" is already a generalization that's probably too big, since there are so many alcoholic products and each one is part of a unique culture.
To give you a personal example, in the link you posted I wasn't surprised to see Chile (I lived there) among the countries with life losses in which alcohol was associates. There is a problem with "macho" culture there, and alcohol can exacerbate it. Even if you were to remove all beer, wine, and chicha from the country, deaths associated with that type of violence would still exist, they would just not be associated with booze anymore for study purposes.

QueenofBabyLoon 2019-02-20 06:15:35 UTC #57

Med school student (coming from a country that produces real alcohol) advice: Your body is really bad at metabolizing alcohol. Then, when it does metabolize it, it passes through highly toxic intermediates.

I think this is reason enough not to drink. Then again, if you need to(then you should ask yourselves some questions), do it slowly and with restraint. In the big scheme of things, alcohol is way worse than weed. Five minutes of binge-drinking can kill you, you can't fatally overdose on weed (mind you, I am not a weed apologetic, I am just trying to put things in perspective here - weed is dangerous in its own way).

Oh, and no, alcohol is NOT food. People who think that are generally alcoholics and end up with severe megaloblastic anemia.

Azifri 2019-02-20 11:59:05 UTC #58

Alcohol as in Ethanol/ethyl alcohol is not food, although it can be used in food production.

-but-

Alcoholic beverages are both food and a potential drug.

The drug part I think has already been discussed here.
Alcoholic beverages are a caloric source, used as a way to preserve carbohydrates, and still in many places a safe way of consuming liquids. Now, do we still need this caloric source in today's rich western world? If we were to look at it just from a caloric point of view, probably not. In the poor and isolated parts of Chile? Actually yes. There are still places in the world where fermented drinks are consumed for sanitary reasons. Just as example, some years ago I went with a friend from vet school who was working in agricultural extension, to a group of islands in the south of Chile where the drinkable water wasn't always reliable, and was given chicha at every place we visited, because people didn't want their guests to pick up something from the water.
Now, going back to the food aspect of alcoholic beverages. In food preparation for example, some dishes will not work out the same without the wine or beer in them, not just because of the flavor, also the solvent effect of ethanol. And then, we can't ignore the organoleptic properties of alcoholic beverages: a glass of wine is an equally important part of the main dish if it was prepared with that in mind.

Here is what I think is a good read about culture, food, and booze: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10408398.2013.841118
A quick pubmed search will point you to more articles about alcohol and health.

I wonder if the same is happening to you. When I was a vet student, after physiopathology (and even worse after infectious diseases), I became super black and white about certain behaviors, aka, why would I eat X if it does Y to me, or why would I risk getting Z. Fast forward 15+ years and that's fortunately all gone; being a person who can take informed risks is probably the best side effect of learning.

vothnthorvaldson 2019-02-20 15:20:59 UTC #59

This!

I think it's pretty inevitable, and actually simply the normal path to walk: first we are ignorant because we lack the knowledge, then we have some knowledge but we don't know how to use it and are not aware of how much is still missing, then hopefully one day we have a good understanding that our knowledge is and will always be incomplete and that we have to deal with that factual situation because it will never be as perfect as we would want.

But it's a constant battle to remind ourselves that. I certainly does not always in normal life, will be more careful but still forget at work.

A related and very difficult thing to deal with happens for people who do specialized studies (my background is in research but that could also happen with any kind of skilled job, for example artisan alcohol making to go back to original topic): At a specific time and on a specific subject, it's possible to be the person who know the most about said subject in the whole world, and to be the one who has the best grasp on all the little nuances about that subject. And then let's take one small step away from this subject and here we are, complete ignoramus, wondering what was the point to master such a ridiculously tiny subject if the rest of the topics our knowledge is so pathetically deficient. It gives a very, very weird feeling.

I'm so off topic, sorry.

liamnaughton7 2019-04-19 15:01:07 UTC #60

I like a good whiskey every now and then...

gosmosdar 2019-12-26 10:15:46 UTC #61

The last time I started drinking I found myself in a rehab... Thanks to my parents who could help me out. So no, now I don't any drugs/alcohol. I recommend you to find the nearest treatment center if you suffer from addiction, here are the addresses: https://addictionresource.com/addiction-and-rehab-hotlines/ I know what it is, so my advice: stay out of it.
Take care.