Licenses and Certification Aren't Necessary

[fifthpaw]

Totally agree. A license is not bad in of itself, it's about how it is being used. Which in a lot of cases is a political tool or a form of capitalist's control.

[fifthpaw]

Totally agree, controlling supply isn't necessarily a bad thing. But taken to the extreme, you end up with a war on drugs that licensed doctor help perpetuate. You're not debunking any of my arguments. If you want to talk about war on drugs I'm cool with that.

[AceRagz]

Not here to debunk I started off reading along and participating because you gave out some blanket statements before on new age medicine that made it sound like all of it is licensed. I am also pointing out that control isn't bad in itself because from most of your statements it comes off as you saying that it is a terrible thing.

[AceRagz]

You know on second thought because now I am curious as to what your thoughts are on the war on drugs and how this is being flamed by licensed doctors. Because the main drugs we are fighting are:

Cocaine: Once used for pain reliever but was discontinued and later made illegal due to it being addictive and destructive.

Heroine: Once used as a pain reliever. Discontinued because it was found to be addictive and destructive. And made illegal on the same grounds.

Marijuana: Was in use for general pain relief discontinued later due to political views turning against its use. Politicians made it illegal. Doctors later fought for limited use of it for patients with terminal diseases. This helped open the door to allow it for further medical use research. And when Obama began to help legalize it the doors opened up for wider acceptance that it has medical value.

Meth: What possible medical value does this stuff have when you look at the lives it has destroyed. I don't see any at all.

[fifthpaw]

I've always put control in the context of license and not control itself is bad. As for the blanket statements on new age medicine, yes you're right but I'm sure many would agree that "half of alternative practitioners are physicians" along with various state business licenses legitimizing the business justify the blanket statement.

http://theoncologist.alphamedpress.org/content/1/3/173.full

[fifthpaw]

I don't about you but I remember things differently. Remember Dr. Sanjay Gupta and how the medical community was on his side. Only a minority of doctors fought for limited use for patients.

How about a more recent example, the Opioid Epidemic.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6139931/

Doctors on the take. South Park even made an episode about it.

[Freemints30]

Here the thing. Licenses at the end of the is just to reduce the risk of getting random joe smoes in to really sensitive positions. Yes it bares some people who who may qualify but can't get the license due to a variety of reasons(my mother unfortunately experienced this as a primary school teacher as several things change in the system causing her to lose her position and she, at the time,couldn't afford it) but it is a sacrifice the we have to be willing to make. From what I have seen positions that would hire without a proper licence tends to do it to promote propaganda(an unlicensed biology teacher to teach creationism and young earth to a religious school) or shady companies wanted to promote "proper remedies". At the end of they people would rather trust some one who went throu the effort and time to learn and achieve their license (showcasing the virtues of hard work and knowledge) rather some nobody who only has their word and anecdotal evidence does not count as sufficient evidence.

[fifthpaw]

You do realized that some of those teachers that teach creationism are licensed.

A conservative Christian group is pushing Bible classes in public schools...

Those are not private school, but public school that require licenses.

Yes it bares some people who who may qualify but can't get the license due to a variety of reasons(my mother unfortunately experienced this as a primary school teacher as several things change in the system causing her to lose her position and she, at the time,couldn't afford it) but it is a sacrifice the we have to be willing to make.

If you bothered to read my sources, you'll know your statement is opinion not fact. Here's one of my sources again that you won't bother to read like everybody else https://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/edfp.2006.1.2.176.

The only one who sort of bother was WriterLinXiaolong, but even he didn't bother to read the next paragraph which put thing in context.

[Freemints30]

yes I just read thru the abstract, emphasis on some, of them of course in any system there will be outliers(ie people driven by politics rather than logic) that's why people need to push back against licenses driven by such things, instead of just letting it to just happen

My opinion still remains the same, at the end of the day its not about hearsay its about trust, and even if your the best in your field we need something to confirm that your not some random peddler. yes some people get in while being absolutely shit. at that point its the actual school and other businesses to filter out those who legitimately received their certificate from those just paid for it. Certification is just one qualification filter the rest is up to the schooling and cooperate system to filter out the rest.

[fifthpaw]

I agree with you 100%. Certification is indeed just one qualification filter. But part of my argument is that those who legitimately received their certificate compare to those that don't have one, studies show the performance is the same. The only reason I'm saying it's not necessary is because of the problems in licensing is so huge that the results in there being no difference in performance between the two groups. I'm pointing out the problems that needs to be fixed otherwise what is the point. For example, how did those creationist get their teaching license? There doesn't seem to be a standard like everybody said there is. Yet people here think I'm against licensing no matter what.

[DiegoPalacios]

The thing is that licences and certificates are just the starting point to get certain jobs.

If you have to choose between 2 individuals with the same skill, you will start looking at other aditional factors, and that is when variables not related to certifications will make a difference.

But if a person hiring is profesional, they will not get their brother to work for them if said brother doesn`t have the skills. Also, people who are recommended still have to show their licences. (of course they have an advantage over the people with the same skills)

There may be businesses who hire based exclusively on people being family and friends, but these dont survive for a long time.

[fifthpaw]

I agree 100%. I never said nepotism isn't a problem.

[AceRagz]

That's from 1996, a lot can change in a matter of years. At most I see 21 states allow licenses to alternative medicine and for 7 fields of alternative medicine. But truly snake oil medicine such as Jilly Juice, MMS, drinking your own urine, drinking other people's urine, taking urine enemas, taking bleach enemas, eating nothing but air (yes this is a thing), healing through magnets, healing through copper bands, healing through various metals, psychic healing, there is even a guy that claims if you send him a picture of yourself he will put it in his special machine he built that will then send healing radio frequencies towards you automatically, drinking raw milk, drinking raw water (this is new), eating raw honey, eating raw meat, eating only meat, eating only vegetables, drinking only juice as your only source of nutrition and so on the list of alternative pseudoscience medicine that is unlicensed grows constantly. I didn't even mention the people that drink peroxide as a cure all for even autism.

[DiegoPalacios]

yeah, we both agree on that one, but the point i wanted to tell is that just because a licence or certification isn`t everything needed to be accepted in a job doesnt mean they are not an important part of said proccess.

[AceRagz]

That is one doctor taking kickbacks from a pharmaceutical company compared to the multifaceted war on drugs in which I mentioned the four major substances responsible for the war itself.

[fifthpaw]

My sources begs to differ. The two studies that I cited, one from the MIT Journal and the other by Kane, shows licences make a difference in quality is a myth. This hold true across different fields. Please cite any source you have that says licences do make a difference or discredit my sources.

[Freemints30]

Ah nepotism, you can be the most qualified person on the planet but the moment your competing with the some officials nephew all you can do is pray they people in charge has has some dignity (sadly not always the case).

There is also a problem with certain parents complaining that the teacher is teaching the "wrong thing to their child" which can go both ways but you will see the most uneducated parents making the loudest pushes towards these horrible teachers compared to the ones who know the subject. Which is also a Huge problem.

[fifthpaw]

Yes it's from 1996 but the changes since then is an explosion of licenses. For example psychic healing can be certified and receive license from the Natural Therapies Certification Board.

That is one doctor taking kickbacks from a pharmaceutical company

Did you read the same thing I did? I think no matter what, people will just see what they want to and not what it was actually there if I cite the source. Do you like John Oliver? People on tapas generally like John Oliver. Here is John Oliver saying licensed doctors are on the take on a massive scale.

[beta1042]

Are there some people who are qualified for a position and don't have a license? Yes
Are there some rules/qualifications for licensing that seem pointless or stupid? Yes
Are there some people who unfortunately are qualified and turned away because of license? Yes

You're going to have outliers in most situations in life, that's just how it works. There are always exceptions. But let's not forget:

Are there people severely under-qualified that licenses prevent? YES
Are there qualifications/standards that are basic and obvious that SHOULD be in place before getting certain jobs? YES

When I consider we could drop licenses but have no standards and lose all integrity and trust in those professions, it's JUST NOT WORTH IT. I do not want a teacher or dr who can't read and write. I do not want a dr who doesn't know basic biology. I don't want these professionals to have ZERO experience or education in their fields. If you drop licensing you risk having people with no knowledge entering the field.

But the thing is, what's the point in arguing with a person who doesn't believe in baseline standards or guidelines? I mean you probably also don't believe in the basic standards for statistical reasoning, which is why you're having so much trouble seeing the difference of correlation v causation in the sources you cite. If you don't think people need minimal qualifications, then you probably also don't believe you need minimal understanding of a topic before you argue it. TBH you'd be a bad candidate for a stats teacher, but worry not- we've got licenses to keep unqualified people like you from teaching!

[fifthpaw]

So explain to me why it's correlation v causation. Explain to me why it's outliers and not the rule. Just like everybody else here, you provide nothing to back up your claims.