Meghan/Diana and the how the need for princesses is violent

[DotCalmComic]

I read a quote by Jude Ellison S. Doyle (twitter @sadydoyle ) about how the need for princesses ...is deeply violent, and it really resonated with me.

Diana, Meghan, Brittany Spears, etc. and how women in general are held to such impossible standards that they go mad and are ripped to shreds for it.
And so many of the stories on TAPAS are variations on the princess theme.

Thoughts?

[VibrantFox]

I think it's less the "need for princesses" being the issues and more the problems with the whole existence of monarchy alongside issues of racism and misogyny (and the two of those compounded when looking at Meghan's experiences in specific)

In terms of princess stories it boils down to portrayal and what role a princess is playing and who their counterparts are and they way they interact with them. You can 100% have princess stories but it's gonna boil down to writing and characterization of the princess and the rest of the cast alongside

Now whether or not people are willing to address the aforementioned issues will depend but they do lie at the very core of a lot of it, it's just a matter of acknowledging it

[darthmongoose]

The sheer number of works on Tapas that are preoccupied with royalty, like they're about a young woman who is forced to live with a duke or a prince or similar, is a little bewildering or even concerning at times. Perhaps because I grew up in a nation with real royalty and was about 12 when Princess Di died and so remember it vividly, I have a much less rosy and idealised view of royalty. Just the entire concept of the person with absolute power being decided by bloodline rather than by merit, and then how this turns any female children or sisters they have into commodities in international politics rather than people with agency is bizarre and so old fashioned, and that's before you get into the oppression of Scotland, Ireland and Wales, or the class issues, and oh boy, Britain and class issues... that's can of worms.

My comic of course features a villain who made himself king, so it does have a character who is a "Princess":

Jules is a princess because their brother is king. It's a role they never asked for or wanted, especially because they're autistic and their gender identity is "I guess I'm mostly kinda female...ish?" and their favourite things are basically wine, video games, webcomics, cartoons and magitech engineering. Jules is just a constant disappointment to Urien; not thin enough, not pretty enough, gothy fashion sense, nerdy interests, hates parties, pansexual and nonbinary...

I always find The Princess Diaries a little distressing to watch even though it's a fun movie, when I think about the fact that really it can read as the story of how Julie Andrews turns up and teaches an autistic girl to mask and gives her a makeover to look socially acceptable. There is a certain loss of autonomy there, which is hidden by the narrative contriving to have the character be happy with the changes to her life, behaviour and looks... but it's hard to imagine it'd be that happy in real life. The princesses in these "Oh no, I have to marry the Duke!?" type comics are always pretty happy to be princesses, or they're able to bend the role of being a princess to them, and they tend to be fortunate enough to look the part already with an effortlessly conventionally attractive face and figure, but can you imagine the nightmare it'd be to be put in that scenario if you're not into men and you're not seen as looking acceptably pretty and you don't enjoy all the social manoeuvring?

There's also just this troubling aspect with princess stories of... well... I can't imagine being the kind of person who thinks "yes, I should definitely be given hugely disproportionate wealth and political power compared to other people just for existing because I'm just better than other people!" ...Wow, really? That's your fantasy? That... says a lot.

[DotCalmComic]

The other issue with Meghan and Harry is that they are being used to distract from the more problematic issues with Prince Andrew and his association with Jeffery Epstein.
I thought about how in the original version of The Little Mermaid, she sacrificed her life (as well as her voice) and became foam upon the sea - but Hans Christian Anderson was forced by public pressure to change the ending so that the Little Mermaid 'gained a soul'.
I thought about how Queen Victoria's personal diaries were destroyed and rewritten because she was too honest about certain issues. Queen Victoria literally was silenced by this idea.
Being violently silenced is at the core of many fairy tales.

[VibrantFox]

I think this veers from my point that misogyny, racism, classism and other social issues are essentially at the root of why royalty and the system of monarchy are an issue and by extension why these particular women have had to suffer

The changes to The Little Mermaid were more to do with making what is meant to be a tragedy into a more "palatable and marketable" story for a corporation whose target audience was children. There's absolutely something to be said about the portrayal of female characters and their roles in fiction and in the real world but in part it was more to do with marketability (in the eyes of a company) and what they perceived as being a "good" story to tell.

I don't know much of Victoria but her words being altered and her diaries destroyed ties back to the whole social issue thing and what I'd said in my first reply in that there are social issues that exist but hardly anyone really wants to address said issues and if anyone does it's usually portrayed as a bad thing as it doesn't match whatever status quo. Like the whole expectations of royalty especially women boils down to misogynistic ideology but it's a matter of acknowledging said issues, addressing them and making the active effort to change things.

Also want to say I don't see Meghan and Harry's suffering at the hands of the crown as a distraction and I think such a statement is...concerning(?) to say the least as it's very much a big issue, both of them are, but one does not outweigh the other in terms of how problematic it is. Trafficking and the sexual abuse perpetuated by Epstein, Andrew and potentially others in the royal family is concerning and very much an issue but racism is too.

Also also this:

Being violently silenced is at the core of many fairy tales.

I don't think it's so much about being silenced as opposed to the reason why but all that does is double back to points I've previously made and I'd rather not talk in circles.

Anywho hope ya'll have a good day and happy international women's day

[Inspector_Spinda]

i think it's kinda sad in terms of the real life concept. putting someone that high up is bound to end badly. celebrities are one level below royalty and we see a lot of the really famous ones just have a terrible time. it is worse when you have that fame your whole life, not as bad when you don't get it until you're middle aged. i think most of the pressure falls on the young people and it's like that now more than ever because media is so prevalent.

[Inspector_Spinda]

I always find The Princess Diaries a little distressing to watch

you should real the books. they are so weird. disney made them worse but also better. her dad is a prince with testicular cancer and her grandma has the most gaudy clown makeup

[Inspector_Spinda]

There's also just this troubling aspect with princess stories of... well... I can't imagine being the kind of person who thinks "yes, I should definitely be given hugely disproportionate wealth and political power compared to other people just for existing because I'm just better than other people!" ...Wow, really? That's your fantasy? That... says a lot.

well also remember that those stories originally were written in a time where almost everyone was very power and almost no one, especially girls and women had autonomy. so having a lot of money for the heck of it would probably be a huge relief. but also back then girls were only good as a marriage prospect so their families could gain land and wealth so it made sense to tell stories about pretty girls marrying powerful men.

[Iris-Grimoire]

Kate is referring to the new webcomic trend though. It doesn't even stop at "I got isekaied into a princess" stories - there's a disturbing lot of new popular stories about how the only thing you should strive for is becoming an oppressor at the highest, most unchallenged position in the world, sometimes with a very flimsy goal of "yeah gonna change it from the inside when I get to the top" which excuses all the abuse of power until then, I bet.

Princess stories can be pretty cool, but I like them better when it's not about getting beaten into the mold (no matter how much there's dressing it up as "just getting a makeover to impress X royal"). It visibly justifies doing this in real life to anyone that doesn't fit the status quo, like Meghan.

[Inspector_Spinda]

Kate is referring to the new webcomic trend though

ok okay sorry. i dont think i know much about that. female power fantasy?

[darthmongoose]

well also remember that those stories originally were written in a time where almost everyone was very power and almost no one, especially girls and women had autonomy. so having a lot of money for the heck of it would probably be a huge relief. but also back then girls were only good as a marriage prospect so their families could gain land and wealth so it made sense to tell stories about pretty girls marrying powerful men.

I'm talking about webcomics that were made less than ten years ago though.... Like yes, stories about the handsome young man who goes on an adventure and gets a hot young wife who is also a princess who comes with money and land are their own classic oldskool flavour of terrible, but I was specifically talking about these modern works aimed at a female audience about young women getting entangled with royalty, many of them appearing regularly on the front page of this very website.

[Neverseen]

Its not really surprising. Princesses are derived from the medieval standard. In that period the court decided the fashion. Therefore princesses were the source of beauty standards. Now that characteristic appears in the idea that princesses are the ideal form of woman. Obviously once compared to fiction, nobody can hope to match up and eventually succumb to either social pressure or leave the spotlight.

[Inspector_Spinda]

Yeah sorry. Flew over my head. I’m not the most hip

[Bubbz]

Honestly, I don't see the Meghan Markle interview to Oprah as a mean of distraction - feels like it was initially planned to see something more positive, but it really seems like a mess now including more recent news on Meghan...
However, when we find out something like this, it potentially could be more positive and inspire necessary changes when discussed later by everybody. That's how I see that, at least...

[starless]

I believe the whole Monarchy system is outdated and it should be ended sooner or later. Of course women and minority groups suffer the most in the system because its "rules" and "traditions" are absolutely unfit for the 21st century.