Reviews that aren't critique?

[toohalloo]

Hi Fritz,

I can't say I'm particularly skilled at literary analysis, but I enjoy it nonetheless. I think it's arguably just as important as artistic critique, maybe even moreso given my thoughts on the value of technical skill vs narrative deft and heart in my own work.

Anyway! Let me give you my thoughts on your comic thus far, and then I'll link mine for giggles.

I feel like you've said your influences before so maybe I'm biased, but I do see an existential and sort of nihilistic kind of.. flavour to your work, which is played in a -- it's kind of like that quote attributed to Yeats, that's like:

"Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy."

Decaf and to an extent Sprudelwasser as well seem to be snapshots of those temporary periods of joy. It feels like there's a greater realm of, not necessarily tragedy but a kind of sobriety around the world and story they inhabit in Decaf. Like a gut feeling of dread. Like news you never wanted to hear. The moment before you catch on to how bad it really is. Not hope, but disbelief. And it seems like the purpose in the universe of Decaf at least is not one of cosmic sanction but one of pure happenstance. Things happened this way because of the conglomeration of wills clashing and interacting, like how meds that you shouldn't take together interact - creating new outcomes totally separate from the individual trajectories of each will.

I don't have much real literary comparison, and maybe I missed the whole idea of this thread. I'm at work so I'll go over the comic again later and see if I have any new thoughts after I get home, but yeah. I will link my comic, Intergalactic Hockey League, here, if anyone wishes to analyze it, despite a lack of any overt literary reference:

IHL

[Inspector_Spinda]

I think it's kind of tricky for a reader, or at least me personally to find a lot of deep meanings in comic such as symbolism when the works often are only partly finished and you don't know what it's all building up to yet. And even then I suppose you would have to read it twice to really catch details I think. But I'm super interested to see if anyone's found some really unique way of conveying themes through imagery.

[FritzC]

Yeah I agree, or at least a few chapters should be out, then you can analýze it like you could with a TV show.

This is also more of a thought thread than anything else, I just love literary analysis and i wish it was more appreciated as a tool and an angle to read a comic from, especially something as personal as a webcomic!

[FritzC]

Wow this is really beautiful! This feeling you're describing is definitely something I can recognize in my work!

I'll take a look at intergalactic hockey league and give you my thoughts when I get the chance ️

[DokiDokiTsuna]

Being a BA of literature and having worked a lot with amazing books and done a lot of literary analysis, I just wish that was a more prominent thing in the online art community.

I think the reason you don't see a lot of that is the same reason you don't see lots of statistical or historical analysis in online communities either: it takes lots of time and care and a healthy dose of actually knowing what you're talking about. ^^;

Plus, it's hard to do literary analysis on a work-in-progress, and that's what most amateur webcomic artists have: WIPs. I'd bet that a large portion of the members of this forum haven't yet finished even a single arc of their series; and if that's the case, it's not surprising that very few of them are inviting others to draw overarching conclusions about their work.

[WillowTree]

Plus, it's hard to do literary analysis on a work-in-progress, and that's what most amateur webcomic artists have: WIPs. I'd bet that a large portion of the members of this forum haven't yet finished even a single arc of their series; and if that's the case, it's not surprising that very few of them are inviting others to draw overarching conclusions about their work.

This!

Someone had briefly joined Tapas and asked for works to review for a tapas review they were wanting to do on the site so I went ahead and linked my work. This person 'reviewed' my work by saying they didn't like where it was going to go and they wouldn't keep reading it because of that....... so I commented and let them know that the story was going in a completely different way than what they were guessing and which point they said they would definitely keep reading it if that's how I was going to be taking it It was more annoying than anything and they quit Tapas not long after anyway but yeah, completed works are definitely more worth a 'review' as opposed to a 'critique.'

[FritzC]

I don't think you can compare statistical and historical analyses to literary analyses in this context.

Also, as I stated before, I agree it's hard to make a literary analysis of a comic that has 2% of the plot out, but those aren't the comics I'm talking about. There are plenty of comics on here that has multiple chapters out, where you could go in and look at interpretation of themes and symbolism.

Anyway this is more of a thought thread than anything else, I'm not asking everyone to start doing analyses of comics on here.

[toohalloo]

Jumping on what Fritz said, I'm of the opinion that you get An impression of a work and the themes it deals with, in such a visual work as a sequential narrative of any kind, pretty much right off the bat. I think approaching comics from a true fine arts/literary perspective rather than an illustrative, or iterative perspective will do comics and comics critical consumption a huge favour. People largely don't take comics seriously as true art, and I include fine artists and comic artists in that statement.

I think taking a literary, thematic approach the moment you can identify such is the healthier way to approach comics and its narrative framework, rather than the comparative practice of crit of details/anatomy/lettering etc.

Comics and crit thereof largely is iterative, as in it builds off of itself and replicates itself. Trends come from people essentially copying what they think is good in the comics/commercial illustration community.This leads to a very insular and market-driven concept of what makes a good comic. I blame this a lot on illustrator culture and its commodification.. I'm a printmaker by hobby and training so I think my perspective is that of an outsider, though I once considered myself an illustrator. But either way, we could use more serious and respectful literary analysis.

EDIT: To clarify, I mean technical crit doesnt make a comic thematically stronger and is often, after the beginner stage, pretty ineffective. Literary analysis on the other hand I find more helpful, whether it has a critical spin or not.

[FritzC]

Yeah I couldn't agree more!

Literature is read and analysed meticulously and encompass such complex themes and narratives aside from the main framework, and I think taking the same approach to comics, especially as a visual medium, would be doing the art a huge favour and actually validate it as meaningful pieces.

There are comics that have no deeper meaning, much like there are books that have no deeper meaning, but there are also a lot of comics that deserve to be taken seriously and treated like the complex pieces of narrative and visual art that they are. :>

I also agree on the point about the illustrator and commercial point of view is partially to blame for the lack of critical analysis and readings of comics as a whole.

[toohalloo]

I should clarify that I think more about comics drawn from the heart in like crayons or with bad anatomy n lettering than I do of well polished but thematically/spiritually empty works. Which I guess is such an "outsider" thing to say but truly art isnt just technical, and what everyone tells you is "bad" may well have huge personal significance to someone. Maybe that someone is you! That's taking art seriously. All skill levels welcome.

As a traditional zinester, I don't care if anyone thinks that highly/deeply of my work though, lol. Just making it and printing it for myself n friends is satisfaction enough. But hey, if in a convo like this someone can catch what my work is trying to say? Even if it's diff entirely from my personal vision, that's dope. Death of the author and all.

[FritzC]

(post withdrawn by author, will be automatically deleted in 24 hours unless flagged)

[DokiDokiTsuna]

I don't think you can compare statistical and historical analyses to literary analyses in this context.

I mean...I don't see why not. =/ People use them to take in-depth looks at fiction all the time, and when done right it can be really cool and eye-opening.

Also, as I stated before, I agree it's hard to make a literary analysis of a comic that has 2% of the plot out, but those aren't the comics I'm talking about. There are plenty of comics on here that has multiple chapters out, where you could go in and look at interpretation of themes and symbolism.

'Multiple chapters' don't necessarily equate to a significant amount of a comic's story, especially if you're looking at symbols for events that haven't happened yet.
Until it's chewed through by invading insects, the garden that is meant to be a visual metaphor for the horrors of war is literally just a garden; it's only in the gradual change that aligns with the events of the story that one can recognize it as a symbol.

But those events and changes could be years down the line, considering how fast the average comic progresses. 12 chapters a year is a common professional pace, and if you've ever written 12 chapters of a comic script you'd know that's not a lot of story.
I have a comic that's eight chapters in and the story has barely started...even after 1.5 years, there's really nothing significant to analyze yet, and there won't be for quite a long time. Many webcomics don't survive that long.

I think if you really want to talk about literary analysis, your time would be better spent...actually talking about it, or at least discussing analyses of existing, finished works that you find interesting. Encouraging us (again, amateurs) to offer up our work to analyze is kinda putting the cart before the horse. :T

[CytricAcid]

me, who has already put a bunch of details in my comic for astute readers to pick up on in chapter 1: uh
people love to analyse stories that aren't done yet. theory crafting and trying to pick up on themes and hints is part of the fun of an ongoing series, and seeing if your hunches get confirmed or not later on.

while not every comic goes straight deep with the detail and lore in the beginning, I really believe that most artists put a lot more thought into their comics than most readers pick up upon on their first, even second or third read. it's one of the wonderful things about media consumption i feel. there's lots to talk about and theorize even in the beginning.

[FritzC]

Comics that can't be read critically aren't the type of comics that are relevant to this idea.
Some comics that aren't finished do, however, have enough material to do a critical reading of them, and look at potential themes and interpretations of elements in the story.

There are a lot of indie and "amateur" comics that have really rich stories and subtext, I'm an "amateur" myself. There are a lot of different comics on here, and just because "most people" might not find this idea of critical readings of comics interesting, and treating comics like a form of literature, doesn't mean it's a discourse that shouldn't be explored in a comic forum, and it doesn't mean it's one that no one will agree with.

It's okay if you don't personally find it relevant or interesting to your work or your consumption of media, that's completely your own decision.

Edit: also im not asking anyone to "offer up their comic for analysis", I said, that if you want to share and have a comic where you put subtext in and used these storytelling tools of symbolism or whatnot, you should feel free to leave your comic.
I won't go around like a webcomic grinch and analyse random comics.

[TAMAnnoying]

Look I gotta say this a lot to people but I'll say it again-

Critique and reviews have and always will be there own art style that needs to be trained and refined.

This shit is actually really hard to do in a way that is both beneficial to potential readers as well as the artist whos work they are reviewing.

Most people who try to be reviewers don't understand most nuance or in-depth analysis that you're looking for, usually because they are amateurish- as most of us on the forum are- OR it simply takes YEARS just like any other art- to get good and understand the different nuance for things like color expression lighting choices and where the "camera" lingers. Even if you're lucky to find people who might have an idea of how it works to analyze these things, most of them wont know how to use the proper analyses language.

just like any other commissioner- you need to help you're artist figure out wtf you want out of your review. Otherwise you're the one with egg on your face if a reviewer comes to you with an analasis on your art style when you wanted one on your writing style and you never bothered to state that in your post.

If you want reviews on your art style. state it
if you want reviews on your writing style. state it.

it will help your reviewer as much as it will help you figure out what to be looking at and thinking about as they're looking at your work.

I understand with most modern "reviews" like ones on rotten tomatoes that are completely and utterly useless to both the artist and the audience- people tend to just wave off the idea of critiques and reviews as art forms. BUT they are art forms and the people who actively try to learn and better themselves to give better reviews should be respected and not hand waved because you didn't help them figure out what kind of review you wanted in your post.

[DokiDokiTsuna]

There are a lot of different comics on here, and just because "most people" might not find this idea of critical readings of comics interesting, and treating comics like a form of literature, doesn't mean it's a discourse that shouldn't be explored in a comic forum, and it doesn't mean it's one that no one will agree with.

It's okay if you don't personally find it relevant or interesting to your work or your consumption of media, that's completely your own decision.

...I never said anything even remotely resembling...any of that stuff. O_O I don't know who you're arguing with in your head, but it isn't me.

All I'm trying to tell you is that this isn't a good environment for mutual literary analysis, especially in comics, due to the time it takes to create story-driven comics and the relative inexperience of 90% of this forum.

Most of the amateur comics you find here will fold before they get to a point where any symbolism they contain will be relevant; another large portion won't even contain any deep symbolism because it's not necessary to become popular, and that's what most of the users here want. Yet another large portion just don't have enough content for any analysis their authors might find valuable (believe it or not, this IS a factor), and it's going to take time for them to get there.

Basically, you're fishing for for sharks in a lake, dude. =/

Some comics that aren't finished do, however, have enough material to do a critical reading of them, and look at potential themes and interpretations of elements in the story.

Again, why not just talk about those, then?? Lead by example; start a thread that actually contributes to the discussion you want to have, rather than just complaining about the lack of it. I'd love to discuss any form of literary analysis on this forum, and I'm sure others would too. If you know of some, why not share it?

I don't know how you can keep misunderstanding this...but in case you're going to try to strawman me again (i.e. pretend I'm dismissing your entire idea while ignoring all my experience-based observations and concrete suggestions)...please don't.

[FritzC]

I am not saying that technical reviews aren't an art form or a good thing. All I'm saying is I personally have an interest in literary analysis, I'd love to see it implemented more in the comic scene, and if anyone has a similar interest I wanna talk to them?

I don't know why saying this is controversial, it's just another take on media consumption and the interpretation of said media.
I'm not asking why everyone on the tapas forums can't offer a literary analysis of my work, or saying people are uneducated if they can't and that other reviews are somehow less valid. I'm saying that I would find it very cool to see more of it in the comic industry as a whole and if there are any people whp read the post and it resonates with them, I'd like to see their work.

[FritzC]

I am literally making a thread for people to talk about this. I stated it in my original post, that I would love to see this more in the art community, I am not saying it should replace any other forms of critique on the forums.

Also, I just asked for 0eople who might share this interest to show me their comics? If there are no one who thinks the same, then they could simply not reply. This is literally just a thought I had about critical readings of comics and its not necessarily only for creators on tapas, it's for the whole genre in general.

[TAMAnnoying]

Well if you dont mind a literary critique of you post it truly sounds like you're upset that people don't critique in a way you prefer as a standard- or, you're asking a very odd question "why is no one giving out literary analysis of comics?" and assuming a very drastic assumption of "its because people dont take comics seriously"

rather then the more obvious thought "because no one asked for that, so no one gave it." Again what your asking for is a rather high in the skills department for most amature writers like the rest of us. which is why like most people would do for an art project is simply ask for that kind service which anyone who is willing or feels capable of doing so would give it to you.

if you look at most of the review threads what are the OP usually saying? They ask people to tell them about their art style, sometimes they're writing ability. you rarely ever see anyone ask for a type of reveiw your asking for- so just like in most markets, since there is no demand there is no supply.

If you want to see more of it done- at least here on these fourms i would say either ask for it more often or BE that person who gives them out, so when people see and apricate it, they will wish to ask for it more often.

[FritzC]

I am not asking why no one is reviewing my comic in a specific way. I basically never enter the review threads here.

I am saying, that I would find a literary analysis interesting, as opposed to a technical one. I don't mind that there are threads of technical critique, it doesn't bother me and I don't enter them.

I am posing the idea, that it would be cool, if people who all liked literary analysis and comics connected, because I think it would be a valuable input to the comic scene and discourse.
I said in my original post, that it anyone felt like their comic fit the bill, they were welcome to link it, I also said that this is not a review thread, unless anyone wants to review a comic in it, then that's fine.

This isn't about me not getting the reviews I want, it's about me sharing a thought about media consumption and critical reading of media, and I'm asking if people who share this interest would like to talk about it.