Solutions for the empty sub culture (poll)

Dysis 2020-09-30 15:40:43 UTC #62

On a more optimistic note, majority of the readership is from creators of other works. And most of the creators are in this forum. The more we spread this awareness, I believe this problem will be addressed to an extent. @HGohwell

@pilot-obvious Glad to know!

milejdyvan 2020-09-30 15:44:04 UTC #63

I do understand what you guys are saying but I still disagree about it being an issue. Let me try and pose a different question. Do you think the most popular stories on Tapas which have hundreds of thousands of subscribers, have more than 10% of that actively reading their story? Like every single update?

What I'm saying is we are all in the same bucket here. This is just the way the app works and the ranks are working fairly fine the way I see it. The only problem that I see is the vast difference between ranks on app and web. Like I would check how high my story was on web only to see it ranked in the top 10, then come to check to app to see that it is dipped all the way below 60. The only issue I see is that for some reason the app ranking never gets updated and they only add new stories to the list and therefore it seems like the other stories are being pushed down.

Dysis 2020-09-30 15:46:17 UTC #64

Ahh, I believe they are popular because of the aggregate number of likes they have achieved. That's possible only if exposure is enough.

The popular stories get away with the issue because the aggregates are in their favour. The majority don't have that luck.

Oh well, to each their own. I found this to be a serious issue, that's all.

domisotto 2020-09-30 15:46:25 UTC #65

Well, not the majority, but they are those whose behaviour you could control, because you interact with them. I did reply to some people who asked for sub4sub that I won’t do it and why to keep my ratio better. I do not sub unless I intend to support every chapter that is updated. Maybe not by comments, but at least by the read/like. This, we at least can manage. The rest of it is up to Lady Luck

Dysis 2020-09-30 15:47:27 UTC #66

Yes, I suppose that's what we can do.

milejdyvan 2020-09-30 15:52:44 UTC #67

It's all on the person at the end of the day. I sub to support. I try to engage with stories when they update too. However, I just don't have it in me to hold it against someone if they don't do the same for me, even more so when they are an only reader. They just don't understand how it works and that is completely fine. So yeah, someone might blindly subscribe but I don't see the issue in that, honestly, I don't even if they are a writer. And as for it affecting engagement I don't see that either. I check my rank on web all the time just to see how it works and what makes it rise best. It seems to me that reads and votes are most important because when I had a spike in that, I got to top ten way faster than I thought possibly. And for example yesterday, I had a very good sub day, but I didn't go up the list at all. It seems to just be affected by everything included.

Dysis 2020-09-30 15:55:03 UTC #68

Idk it just makes me sad. The subs shouldn't be bringing writers down, it should let them know others are interested and that's that.

domisotto 2020-09-30 15:59:39 UTC #69

Yeah, I am with you there.

Again, it’s not on anyone personally whether the story succeeds or not, it is on the collective outlook/tastes of about 200 to 500 silent readers that float around (depending on genre) and check out the fresh section regularly if they are interested in your story to keep pushing it up for long enough to bring in more.

If you don’t grab them, and fast—you are dead in the water. There is no shame in that.

I mean, every fiction has its interest ceiling. One you hit it, you hit it, you are done. The only thing we need is that long tail end after completed that helps with some lingering read count.

Dysis 2020-09-30 16:02:45 UTC #70

In the end it amounts to viewership.

See, the issue I'm trying to address is not trying to demean lurkers. To each their own, they can like a story comment or read, heck if they are doing any of the three, it the writer's achievement!

It's the dead subs. There is a difference between viewership and not viewing at all. Again, that is the choice of the subscriber, but the fact that it's reducing the writer's exposure is what needs to be addressed.

domisotto 2020-09-30 16:03:50 UTC #71

They should auto-unsub people after a period of inactivity imo, but if it’s too hard, it’s too hard...

Dysis 2020-09-30 16:04:17 UTC #72

Auto-unsub it is! I'm adding it above.

milejdyvan 2020-09-30 16:06:48 UTC #73

No, auto un-sub is just a terrible idea XD sorry. I would actually be offended if I came back to my old fanfiction account only to see that all my saved stories are deleted from my library because of "inactivity". That's all I'm trying to preach here. Look at it from the reader's perspective and then you understand that you are basically just mocking them because of something they can't even control. Maybe they just don't have time to read or lost interest, but that nostalgia might bring them back (like it did to me about a month ago with fanfics. I spent a whole day just going through my old ones, enjoying the heck out of it. And I have not been on fanfic for years)

Dysis 2020-09-30 16:07:34 UTC #74

lolol I know. I didn't mean to come off that way. Here's what she means. It's a win-win for both party, don't you think?

@milejdyvan

HGohwell 2020-09-30 16:13:14 UTC #75

This is all the more reason to have a separate sub and mark for later list or similar that doesn't affect your rank. If you have say 500 subs but are only getting 50 views an update (interaction asside) that doesn't make a creator feel good and harms your ratings. We're trying to come up with solutions that help everyone here you know.

milejdyvan 2020-09-30 16:13:32 UTC #76

Look at it like this. I was on wattpad for three years and they have a private library option. When someone adds your story to a private library, you are never notified about it. Now, yes, this is good if you're reading something really smutty and don't want anyone to know, but for me who is only trying to write a regular story, I prefer to know how many people are interested in it.

I don't want Tapas to turn into Wattpad where hundreds of people might add my story privately and I never know about it. That is what causes inactivity, when the reader has an option to hide their engagement which results in the writer thinking their writing is terrible because nobody ever seems to bat an eye on it. That's what I thought for the three years that I was on Wattpad and now that I am on Tapas, in less than two months, I got more engagement than ever on Wattpad. Sorry, but that's just the way I see it. If anyone from Tapas staff is reading this, I beg you, please don't add a private library option which would serve the same way as a sub but be silent. Please.

milejdyvan 2020-09-30 16:15:04 UTC #77

I do not see the issue in that at all. And I absolutely do not mind being devil's advocate here even if I am the only person with this opinion XD It is inevitable that newer chapters get more engagement than later ones. What we as writers need to do is have an interesting story for new readers to binge on and catch up, and good new chapters for those who are caught on.

HGohwell 2020-09-30 16:24:06 UTC #78

Yes I am well aware that but if you can't see how having 450 or 500 subs who don't even glance at your work when it updates or ever can be discouraging as well as being harmful because of the algorithm then I don't know what to say. Please don't lecture me on what we as creators need to do and consistently pass of the issue as if we're just wrong and not doing our jobs when we're actually discussing an issue lots of people are experiencing and trying to come up with solution that could suit readers and creators.

Auto-unsub and a separate reading list that doesn't actually affect your ranks are both perfectly good solutions, especially if combined and clear that one is for alerts and one is a reading list. Another solution would be more clarity on the algorithm or a different algorithm but that's unlikely. So perhaps rather than just telling us we're wrong and the issue lots of us see as an issue isn't and is all in our head and that every possible solution we offer is terrible, you should "look at it from a reader's perspective" and you keep telling us what possible solutions there are from a reader's point of view.

domisotto 2020-09-30 16:24:17 UTC #79

Yeah, that’s on us, but Tapas should also give completed stories better shake, instead of incentivizing infinite series

Dysis 2020-09-30 16:25:56 UTC #80

I fully agree with you on this! No private libraries! If the writer is being subbed, they ought to know.

Now that that's settled, I'm looking at two libraries. One is for the stories a reader is actively following. This library is what determines the story's rankings.

Now, say, the reader doesn't interact for 90 days. Then, the story will automatically shift to their second library and the the sub will not affect the story's rankings. If you think about it this way, it shows that the reason why the story isn't growing is because the reader, for any personal reason, is not able to commit to the work. It's not that the writer's story is trashy.

So, this way, three things are fulfilled:
1. Writer comes to know the reader has subbed.
2. Reader engagement works but only until a limited period of reader's inactivity.
3. Once reader is inactive, the story shifts to their read-later library and the reader doesn't lose the story. Plus, that reader no longer contributes to the ranking of the writer, unless they resume engagement.

migxmeg 2020-09-30 16:27:03 UTC #81

I'm with you! And I think you mentioned this above, but it's ratings about your popularity vs. other creators. So if we're comparing ratios and this behavior is normal, this really shouldn't be a problem.

I think it's only a problem for tiny creators (like me, hehe) if we went and hugely inflated our own numbers with dead subs doing sub for sub. Otherwise everyone just has a dead sub percentage - whether it's that you're on someone's reading list or whatever. And that's totally fine.