The difference between "feeling yourself like an another gender" and "being free from stereotypes about your gender"

[DiegoPalacios]

Academia has proven to me that "neutrality" does not work. You can't research a matter in a meaningful way when you don't know the implications your research has for the party you're researching. Cis people, we will never be able to really understand what some findings mean in reality for our trans siblings.

That is why i proposed to see both perspectives. To see the whole picture we need to see from inside and outside.

Dismissing cis-people`s research just because they are cis would be an ad-hominem fallacy. (dismissing the person, without caring of the argument and evidence)

if we all followed the logic that only people who belong into a group can decide what is better for them, only babies would be able to say what is better for babies.

Cis people, we will never be able to really understand what some findings mean in reality for our trans siblings. Just as a male researcher will never truly know what it's like as a woman to be constantly put down based on gender alone,

By being emphatic with the person and listening to them we can have a better idea. Just imagine if one day you woke up with the body of the opposite sex, how would you react to it?. Of course trans people could probably give a more accurate description.

I think many trans people, even the ones that are fully accepted have noticed the differences of how they are treated as males and as females.

A collaborative research, on the other hand, could prove useful. But we have to be mindful of who interprets which data. More often than not, this fact alone makes the research meaningless.

good point, is hard to find completely unbiased people, so the data interpretation can be messy to say the least.

[therealbereth]

Well I'd say both of us have valid points, but maybe both our conclusions aren't ideal in the end. xD

It's just that the "outside perspective", this "neutrality", invites many logical fallacies. Take research concerning Black communities. Or even Native American history. Many things are excluded from academia simply because they lack the "neutrality" which academia claims to possess—because most facts can't be "proven" in terms of classic academic research, since most of the history has been carried on orally. Academia has so many barriers that have been established by straight white men over the centuries (simply because of the fact that universities were reserved for white men and most of them were straight) that it's susceptible to error because of its rules.

Apply that to modern research, and I think you can see how conventions of academia, of "neutrality", can result in more or less worthless research. Not so much based solely on the gender or skin color of the researcher, but because of their cultural upbringing and possible privilege that comes with it. And privilege can blind us to many of the things we'd like to understand. I'm no exception to that as a white woman, and I'm constantly unlearning certain things that I took for granted as a child, for example (because of my upbringing).

That's what I mean when I say that it is very important who the researcher in question is. What is their background? Is "neutrality" advantageous to the topic at hand? Can they see past their preconceptions? Are they able to truly be critical of their interpretations? Are they open to feedback from people within the community they are conducting research on?

Depending on the answers to those questions, their research may very well be valuable, of course. But the danger of falling into the trap of "straight white academia" is... high.

But there's still a lot to unravel in modern academia, and we haven't even begun to do that. And so I would always take the research about trans matters done by trans people over that of a cis person, and be much more skeptical when it's done by a cis person (especially when there's no trans people on their team, that's a red flag right there).

Anyway, I think we seem to have covered our stance on this? xD Let's give people the chance to talk about the difference between dysphoria and confusion because of gender roles again.

[DiegoPalacios]

Well I'd say both of us have valid points, but maybe both our conclusions aren't ideal in the end. xD

It's just that the "outside perspective", this "neutrality", invites many logical fallacies. Take research concerning Black communities. Or even Native American history. Many things are excluded from academia simply because they lack the "neutrality" which academia claims to possess

When i talk about a neutral perspective i don`t refer to only putting academia aside from everything else. Is important to notice how the investigation was taken, how the criteria of the sample is chosen and how the quantitative and qualitative information is measured. And what perspectives are listened.
Outside perspective is as important as inside perspective.

Dismissing someone just for who they are is as bad as blinding following them because of who they are. The latest is a fallacy of authority.

hat's what I mean when I say that it is very important who the researcher in question is. What is their background? Is "neutrality" advantageous to the topic at hand?

People who belong to the group researched and people who dont belong can both be prone to bias.
Would you trust a nazi researching about the consequences of nazism?

About neutrality:
It depends, a quantitative investigation go for things that can be measured and considered facts.

A qualitative investigation go for things that cant be measured in numbers, like the interviewed`s experiences with the situation they are living.

There are a lot of kids who just know at a very young age that they are not the gender they were assigned at birth. What makes all this confusing to them are gender roles.

the ammount of trans kids who regretted their transition is about 54%. While many were okay with it, still the majority realized later they were not trans. That is why i insist on not rushing on big decisions like that.

source: https://www.psypost.org/2017/12/many-transgender-kids-grow-stay-trans-50499

Anyway, I think we seem to have covered our stance on this? xD Let's give people the chance to talk about the difference between dysphoria and confusion because of gender roles again.

Completely agree on the trouble of gender roles. It restrict people to explore activities and repress people`s behavior.

yeah, if we keep going we may fill the thread XD, it was a nice talk!. Is always interesting to hear another perspective.

[vfinnigan]

A good example to compare and contrast is me and my sister in law. I'm a cisgendered woman who's been labeled as nonconforming. When I was four, I briefly identified as a boy. And when my parents said, "No, you're a girl," I was a little confused, but was OK with it. My reason for identifying as a boy was that I liked Star Wars, and the Star Wars action figure commercials suggested those toys were appropriate for only boys. I'd often envied boys and men for their opportunities and expressed frustration over the years that wasn't about me being female, but with the constraints of femininity and what was expected of girls at the time.

But I never felt like I was trapped in the wrong body and for the most part was happy being female - if perhaps not very feminine.

My sister-in-law, on the other hand, enjoyed all the advantages of having been raised as a boy. So her feeling like she was trapped in the wrong body had nothing to do with gender roles.

[LordVincent]

Pretty much this.
I would have said gender dysphoria is the difference but quite frankly, if we didn't decide as a society that certain bodyshapes etc deserve to define as male and others deserve to define as female, some of the dysphoria would be lessened or nonexistent in some trans individuals. Don't get me wrong, a lot of us have dysphoria about certain things regardless and what we do about it (surgery, hormones, binding, whatever) should be our choice alone. But sometimes dysphoria is caused more by what society tells us is right and wrong for a certain gender rather than what we feel we need to fix.
For this reason, I don't want to tie transgender identity entirely to dysphoria. I believe you can be trans without being dysphoric. Unlikely in current society, but some trans people could potentially be non-dysphoric if they grow up in a good environment.

Back to the topic at hand and my own experiences, I've never been confused about this because with me it's never been "i am a dude because i like (insert dude things here)". I've always felt that I'm a dude with traits that may be percieved as androgyne. It's how I felt most comfortable. I don't wear dresses anymore because I just don't feel like it, but for a while I still did that after coming out. Same with makeup. I still don't really care if the things I buy are from the mens or the womens section in regards to what people think of said clothes, however I become less likely to buy women's clothing for every month that passes because... well... exercise and testosterone have just made my shoulders too broad.

Anyone should be free to express themselves how they like as long as they don't hurt anyone. Regardless of gender, and regardless of whether your gender identity matches what your doctor claimed you were when you were born.

[AniStaciaArt]

It's so sad to read these and realize how many little girls were let down by how society treated them. I mean "I wanted to be a boy because I wanted to be free." (Paraphrasing) is a horrifying statement to make. But still one so many of us feel.

[vothnthorvaldson]

And the opposite. I'm still shocked from seeing a 3 year old boy getting scolded and violently slapped on the arm for doing a few ballet moves in public. And a man close to me is getting constantly disrespected and/or ridiculed for not acting manly enough, being too small etc. In my opinion, society expectations are crazy and terribly restrictive on both genders, even if the most severe (or even criminal) sides remain mostly against women.

[AniStaciaArt]

Definitely both! My little brother was bullied by my stepdad for not being manly enough. My brother didn't like building things with tools, which was my stepdad's only metric for manliness. And theres people who thought my stepdad wasn't manly because he didn't like sports.

I just thought it was telling that so many women came here with similar stories.

[Inspector_Spinda]

I like to wear male clothes sometimes. A lot of male clothes looks more gender neutral but they're more baggy and cozy for me. I also don't care too much for romance, make up and some other stereotypical girl stuff. But I'm still a girl. Feeling like you need a body that's different from your sex to the point where you need to be distinctly not your sex is feeling like another gender.

I've noticed that a lot of trans people are more stereotypically the gender they feel like that the actual people of that gender. Like a born male who feels female will always wear dresses that are really girly and high heels and long hair. It's never short feminine hair and jeans or something like that.

[unknown_user]

I've noticed that a lot of trans people are more stereotypically the gender they feel like that the actual people of that gender. Like a born male who feels female will always wear dresses that are really girly and high heels and long hair. It's never short feminine hair and jeans or something like that.

I'm not sure... I don't know any trans people personally. So what if those ones who look more stereotypical, are just more noticeable in media?

[Inspector_Spinda]

I don't know them personally either, but I see them on the street sometimes. However them being noticeable is also a pretty good point. im not sure about that.

[vothnthorvaldson]

I think there can be also the need to do all the things that one was not socially allowed to do as the other gender (but not every one does it or even feel that need).
I have quite a lot of trans friends who went a little bit overboard (I use this word without negative connotation, though) for a while after transitioning, and then, not so much. That's taking advantage of a new freedom. I think that may happen to cis persons too, after a life change, although that may (or not) be less meaningful/deep.

Plus, one may really try to avoid being wrongly gendered. I mean, even very feminine cis women still sometimes get 'mister' because of short hair and gender neutral clothes.

[vfinnigan]

By the way, my son very much enjoyed ballet, though he did get tired of always being cast as a prince. So his teacher and I made up little mini-ballets about robots or superheroes - and the girls had as much fun with those as my son did.

[vfinnigan]

... or if they're doing "men's work." That was the biggest reason I got misgendered.

[punkarsenic]

I've noticed that a lot of trans people are more stereotypically the gender they feel like that the actual people of that gender. Like a born male who feels female will always wear dresses that are really girly and high heels and long hair. It's never short feminine hair and jeans or something like that.

thats a bit of a generalisation - ive actually met trans women who are hard butch lesbians before, and trans men who are very fem and do drag. trans gender expression is all across the spectrum, just like in cis people. but!! there is a reason for this trend, which is simply: transphobia.

binary trans people (trans men and women) are expected to perform their gender to a very narrow archetype to gain acceptance; to be recognised socially as their gender, often, but also in many countries they must perform their gender stereotype to access medical treatment. its really shit, but as cis people are trapped in gender roles trans people are double trapped in gender roles, bc the social acceptance of their gender is extremely fragile, and their safety relies on maintaining it by any means necessary.

[vfinnigan]

Well, I do know trans women (what you'd call "born male") personally, and they are all pretty badass people. One's all about dresses and makeup, but avoids heels, one likes heels, but prefers jeans, and will do makeup and nails for a special occasion or maybe just for fun, and one I've never seen in a dress or makeup and likely never will. Not all cisgendered women are femme, so why would all trans women be?

[SleepingPoppy]

the ammount of trans kids who regretted their transition is about 54%

I believe the studies are all pre-transition and about the number of kids who ceased to feel gender dysphoric/ID as trans. Doesn't say anything about medical transitioning or regret. (They use the word "desist" which is to say they ceased participation and or just said they no longer identified as trans)

Sorry for bringing up something from a while back! I still think the article is very relevant to the conversation. And if I am mistaken/missed anything, please feel free to point it out to me!

[DiegoPalacios]

I believe the studies are all pre-transition and about the number of kids who ceased to feel gender dysphoric/ID as trans. Doesn't say anything about medical transitioning or regret. (They use the word "desist" which is to say they ceased participation and or just said they no longer identified as trans)

Thanks for the imput!. Just checked out and it indeed says desist, which can be because of any of the reasons you mentioned)

But is important to point out that a kid`s identity is not set in stone. They are still figuring out who they are. That is why such a radical operation at such an early age would be a reckless move. If someone is gonna do the transition it makes more sense to make it when they have figured out themselves, to avoid a decision they may regret.

Now i gotta say i wonder if all those surgeries are the most effective way to handle gender dysphoria. Maybe, just like depression, a medication could be the solution. (of course, making sure there are no harmful secondary effects). Also i wonder if there is a greedy incentive for doctors to not research such medicament because they can get more money out of multiple surgeries.

[SleepingPoppy]

But is important to point out that a kid`s identity is not set in stone. They are still figuring out who they are. That is why such a radical operation at such an early age would be a reckless move. If someone is gonna do the transition it makes more sense to make it when they have figured out themselves, to avoid a decision they may regret.

The early age of legal adulthood? Children do not surgically transition. Surgery is a big deal at any age, regardless.

(not trying to come off as brusque, just not quite sure how to reply to this XD )

[DiegoPalacios]

The early age of legal adulthood? Children do not surgically transition. Surgery is a big deal at any age, regardless.

I didn`t know that kids didnt do the surgical transition. Thanks for the clarification. The thought of kids going through that surgery scared me because of all the risks for them.

Also, completely agree that surgery is a big deal at any age.

(not trying to come off as brusque, just not quite sure how to reply to this XD )

No problem, is hard to notice the tone of voice when chatting online, so some things can come of as more or less hostile than what the person means.

Another question, out of curiosity. Do you know any studies that shows how much surgeries diminish the gender dysphoria pains (and if they disminish it) and how permanent are these calming effects?.