The difference between "feeling yourself like an another gender" and "being free from stereotypes about your gender"

vothnthorvaldson 2019-06-07 01:44:38 UTC #47

And the opposite. I'm still shocked from seeing a 3 year old boy getting scolded and violently slapped on the arm for doing a few ballet moves in public. And a man close to me is getting constantly disrespected and/or ridiculed for not acting manly enough, being too small etc. In my opinion, society expectations are crazy and terribly restrictive on both genders, even if the most severe (or even criminal) sides remain mostly against women.

AniStaciaArt 2019-06-07 02:04:51 UTC #48

Definitely both! My little brother was bullied by my stepdad for not being manly enough. My brother didn't like building things with tools, which was my stepdad's only metric for manliness. And theres people who thought my stepdad wasn't manly because he didn't like sports.

I just thought it was telling that so many women came here with similar stories.

Inspector_Spinda 2019-06-10 18:13:22 UTC #50

I like to wear male clothes sometimes. A lot of male clothes looks more gender neutral but they're more baggy and cozy for me. I also don't care too much for romance, make up and some other stereotypical girl stuff. But I'm still a girl. Feeling like you need a body that's different from your sex to the point where you need to be distinctly not your sex is feeling like another gender.

I've noticed that a lot of trans people are more stereotypically the gender they feel like that the actual people of that gender. Like a born male who feels female will always wear dresses that are really girly and high heels and long hair. It's never short feminine hair and jeans or something like that.

unknown_user 2019-06-10 19:31:15 UTC #51

I'm not sure... I don't know any trans people personally. So what if those ones who look more stereotypical, are just more noticeable in media?

Inspector_Spinda 2019-06-10 19:35:02 UTC #52

I don't know them personally either, but I see them on the street sometimes. However them being noticeable is also a pretty good point. im not sure about that.

vothnthorvaldson 2019-06-10 19:42:53 UTC #53

I think there can be also the need to do all the things that one was not socially allowed to do as the other gender (but not every one does it or even feel that need).
I have quite a lot of trans friends who went a little bit overboard (I use this word without negative connotation, though) for a while after transitioning, and then, not so much. That's taking advantage of a new freedom. I think that may happen to cis persons too, after a life change, although that may (or not) be less meaningful/deep.

Plus, one may really try to avoid being wrongly gendered. I mean, even very feminine cis women still sometimes get 'mister' because of short hair and gender neutral clothes.

vfinnigan 2019-06-11 19:30:11 UTC #54

By the way, my son very much enjoyed ballet, though he did get tired of always being cast as a prince. So his teacher and I made up little mini-ballets about robots or superheroes - and the girls had as much fun with those as my son did.

vfinnigan 2019-06-11 19:31:23 UTC #55

... or if they're doing "men's work." That was the biggest reason I got misgendered.

punkarsenic 2019-06-11 19:45:50 UTC #56

thats a bit of a generalisation - ive actually met trans women who are hard butch lesbians before, and trans men who are very fem and do drag. trans gender expression is all across the spectrum, just like in cis people. but!! there is a reason for this trend, which is simply: transphobia.

binary trans people (trans men and women) are expected to perform their gender to a very narrow archetype to gain acceptance; to be recognised socially as their gender, often, but also in many countries they must perform their gender stereotype to access medical treatment. its really shit, but as cis people are trapped in gender roles trans people are double trapped in gender roles, bc the social acceptance of their gender is extremely fragile, and their safety relies on maintaining it by any means necessary.

vfinnigan 2019-06-11 20:55:47 UTC #58

Well, I do know trans women (what you'd call "born male") personally, and they are all pretty badass people. One's all about dresses and makeup, but avoids heels, one likes heels, but prefers jeans, and will do makeup and nails for a special occasion or maybe just for fun, and one I've never seen in a dress or makeup and likely never will. Not all cisgendered women are femme, so why would all trans women be?

SleepingPoppy 2019-06-14 01:42:02 UTC #59

I believe the studies are all pre-transition and about the number of kids who ceased to feel gender dysphoric/ID as trans. Doesn't say anything about medical transitioning or regret. (They use the word "desist" which is to say they ceased participation and or just said they no longer identified as trans)

Sorry for bringing up something from a while back! I still think the article is very relevant to the conversation. And if I am mistaken/missed anything, please feel free to point it out to me!

DiegoPalacios 2019-06-14 02:58:42 UTC #60

Thanks for the imput!. Just checked out and it indeed says desist, which can be because of any of the reasons you mentioned)

But is important to point out that a kid`s identity is not set in stone. They are still figuring out who they are. That is why such a radical operation at such an early age would be a reckless move. If someone is gonna do the transition it makes more sense to make it when they have figured out themselves, to avoid a decision they may regret.

Now i gotta say i wonder if all those surgeries are the most effective way to handle gender dysphoria. Maybe, just like depression, a medication could be the solution. (of course, making sure there are no harmful secondary effects). Also i wonder if there is a greedy incentive for doctors to not research such medicament because they can get more money out of multiple surgeries.

SleepingPoppy 2019-06-14 04:06:50 UTC #61

The early age of legal adulthood? Children do not surgically transition. Surgery is a big deal at any age, regardless.

(not trying to come off as brusque, just not quite sure how to reply to this XD )

DiegoPalacios 2019-06-14 04:33:07 UTC #62

I didn`t know that kids didnt do the surgical transition. Thanks for the clarification. The thought of kids going through that surgery scared me because of all the risks for them.

Also, completely agree that surgery is a big deal at any age.

No problem, is hard to notice the tone of voice when chatting online, so some things can come of as more or less hostile than what the person means.

Another question, out of curiosity. Do you know any studies that shows how much surgeries diminish the gender dysphoria pains (and if they disminish it) and how permanent are these calming effects?.

SleepingPoppy 2019-06-14 05:06:00 UTC #63

It's not something I'm well versed in, but this is what I found in a quick google scholar search. Not sure how many longer term studies have been done, but it's certainly something you can look for if you're interested.

punkarsenic 2019-06-14 15:16:25 UTC #64

you mean like hormone medication? hormone replacement therapy? the first part of a transition to ease gender dysphoria, and the only transitional treatment some trans people even make?

the problem with this idea is that wanting to medicate away dysphoria means wanting to medicate someone into being comfortable - to some extent - with their assigned gender. which is a step towards wanting to medicate away transness - not saying thats what youre saying, i know youre not, but if we began 'curing' dysphoria by making people comfortable with characteristics not associated with their true gender, thatll really put the wind in transphobes' sails.

the real nonsurgical way to get rid of dysphoria is to change society so that genitals and secondary sex characteristics arent associated with gender. until breasts =/= woman, for example, most trans men will still want a mastectomy (and they should be entitled to it). i dunno if dysphoria would still exist in a more gender nihilist world, but i certainly think if your body doesnt need to be a certain shape for your gender to be taken seriously, dysphoria will be less prominent.

though besides dysphoria, theres other reasons trans people might want surgery; in some countries, trans people cant get legal recognition of their gender until they have bottom surgery / 'sex reassignment' surgery. other surgeries like top surgery and facial feminisation surgery can be about passing; less how you feel, and more how others receive you. plus, after a few years on T youre gonna wanna get a hysterectomy, bc some studies suggest that trans men have a higher risk of... cervical? cancer. smth to do with all that stuff down there.

LordVincent 2019-06-14 15:38:57 UTC #65

Agreed except one thing: the cervical cancer risk has turned out to be a myth. I don't have precise sources, it's just what I've been told by specialists that work in transgender healthcare as well as other trans people who undergo treatment.

punkarsenic 2019-06-14 16:34:33 UTC #66

oh, thats good to know!

therealbereth 2019-06-15 12:52:34 UTC #67

Sleeping Poppy already pointed out that surgeries don't happen as long as the person isn't a legal adult, but I'd also like to add that there are puberty blockers! If a kid doesn't want to go through puberty because of the way their body could change into something that would worsen their dysphoria (or bring it about in the first place), they can simply take the blockers and stall everything, which I imagine is especially good for trans boys, since they avoid the boobs altogether. ^^ (edit: also, imagine trans girls evading the whole voice change! awesome)

And keep in mind, even after someone becomes a legal adult, society and the medical community as a whole actually make it hard for people to undergo such a surgery in the first place. There are a LOT of barriers to the point where people have to "prove" for years that they are trans, which leads to people dying. Simply because they are depressed because they can't live like they want to and because society would rather question their decision to transition rather than accept that they know who they are.

We shouldn't get to decide whether or not someone is trans. We also shouldn't act as if a surgery is a light-hearted decision. People think about that long and hard, and no one should be able to question their decision's validity based on cisheteronormativity.

DiegoPalacios 2019-06-15 22:01:07 UTC #68

My main concern about dysphoria comes from the effect these pains have on people, like depression.

I can see your point. Transgender people have a long story of being victims of discrimination and i guess your concern is that defining dysphoria as a disorder would make people associate transgenderism with a disorder, which would only make things worse for them.

While mental illness is stigmatized, society is moving toward acceptance. Maybe by making a distinction between gender dysphoria and transgender people, it may be possible to treat such pains caused by the dysphoria in a cheaper and safer way without adding further stigma.

Also, an important decision like gender could be made without being under constant stress, which could help them make a free and clearer decision and reduce the rate of regret.

Yes, the requisites are extremely strict when it comes to a gender change, but at the same time, if a requisite for a gender change becomes too easy it could encourage people to change gender out of convenience. Ex: identifying themselves as a woman to reduce their sentence in jail, or identifying themselves as males to have a bigger salary. Of course, those examples would not be a problem if the legislation didn`t have those double standards.

Also, rapists could exploit this to go to a women`s bathroom to abuse them in an easier way.

It is important to find the point where gender identity law can`t be exploited and where people can express their gender identity in a healthier way.

I never said surgery was a lighthearted decision, i think we all agree it is a tough proccess.
I agree that gender is something extremely personal, but legislating for it can be complex for this exact reason.