The difference between "feeling yourself like an another gender" and "being free from stereotypes about your gender"

punkarsenic 2019-06-11 19:45:50 UTC #56

thats a bit of a generalisation - ive actually met trans women who are hard butch lesbians before, and trans men who are very fem and do drag. trans gender expression is all across the spectrum, just like in cis people. but!! there is a reason for this trend, which is simply: transphobia.

binary trans people (trans men and women) are expected to perform their gender to a very narrow archetype to gain acceptance; to be recognised socially as their gender, often, but also in many countries they must perform their gender stereotype to access medical treatment. its really shit, but as cis people are trapped in gender roles trans people are double trapped in gender roles, bc the social acceptance of their gender is extremely fragile, and their safety relies on maintaining it by any means necessary.

vfinnigan 2019-06-11 20:55:47 UTC #58

Well, I do know trans women (what you'd call "born male") personally, and they are all pretty badass people. One's all about dresses and makeup, but avoids heels, one likes heels, but prefers jeans, and will do makeup and nails for a special occasion or maybe just for fun, and one I've never seen in a dress or makeup and likely never will. Not all cisgendered women are femme, so why would all trans women be?

SleepingPoppy 2019-06-14 01:42:02 UTC #59

I believe the studies are all pre-transition and about the number of kids who ceased to feel gender dysphoric/ID as trans. Doesn't say anything about medical transitioning or regret. (They use the word "desist" which is to say they ceased participation and or just said they no longer identified as trans)

Sorry for bringing up something from a while back! I still think the article is very relevant to the conversation. And if I am mistaken/missed anything, please feel free to point it out to me!

DiegoPalacios 2019-06-14 02:58:42 UTC #60

Thanks for the imput!. Just checked out and it indeed says desist, which can be because of any of the reasons you mentioned)

But is important to point out that a kid`s identity is not set in stone. They are still figuring out who they are. That is why such a radical operation at such an early age would be a reckless move. If someone is gonna do the transition it makes more sense to make it when they have figured out themselves, to avoid a decision they may regret.

Now i gotta say i wonder if all those surgeries are the most effective way to handle gender dysphoria. Maybe, just like depression, a medication could be the solution. (of course, making sure there are no harmful secondary effects). Also i wonder if there is a greedy incentive for doctors to not research such medicament because they can get more money out of multiple surgeries.

SleepingPoppy 2019-06-14 04:06:50 UTC #61

The early age of legal adulthood? Children do not surgically transition. Surgery is a big deal at any age, regardless.

(not trying to come off as brusque, just not quite sure how to reply to this XD )

DiegoPalacios 2019-06-14 04:33:07 UTC #62

I didn`t know that kids didnt do the surgical transition. Thanks for the clarification. The thought of kids going through that surgery scared me because of all the risks for them.

Also, completely agree that surgery is a big deal at any age.

No problem, is hard to notice the tone of voice when chatting online, so some things can come of as more or less hostile than what the person means.

Another question, out of curiosity. Do you know any studies that shows how much surgeries diminish the gender dysphoria pains (and if they disminish it) and how permanent are these calming effects?.

SleepingPoppy 2019-06-14 05:06:00 UTC #63

It's not something I'm well versed in, but this is what I found in a quick google scholar search. Not sure how many longer term studies have been done, but it's certainly something you can look for if you're interested.

punkarsenic 2019-06-14 15:16:25 UTC #64

you mean like hormone medication? hormone replacement therapy? the first part of a transition to ease gender dysphoria, and the only transitional treatment some trans people even make?

the problem with this idea is that wanting to medicate away dysphoria means wanting to medicate someone into being comfortable - to some extent - with their assigned gender. which is a step towards wanting to medicate away transness - not saying thats what youre saying, i know youre not, but if we began 'curing' dysphoria by making people comfortable with characteristics not associated with their true gender, thatll really put the wind in transphobes' sails.

the real nonsurgical way to get rid of dysphoria is to change society so that genitals and secondary sex characteristics arent associated with gender. until breasts =/= woman, for example, most trans men will still want a mastectomy (and they should be entitled to it). i dunno if dysphoria would still exist in a more gender nihilist world, but i certainly think if your body doesnt need to be a certain shape for your gender to be taken seriously, dysphoria will be less prominent.

though besides dysphoria, theres other reasons trans people might want surgery; in some countries, trans people cant get legal recognition of their gender until they have bottom surgery / 'sex reassignment' surgery. other surgeries like top surgery and facial feminisation surgery can be about passing; less how you feel, and more how others receive you. plus, after a few years on T youre gonna wanna get a hysterectomy, bc some studies suggest that trans men have a higher risk of... cervical? cancer. smth to do with all that stuff down there.

LordVincent 2019-06-14 15:38:57 UTC #65

Agreed except one thing: the cervical cancer risk has turned out to be a myth. I don't have precise sources, it's just what I've been told by specialists that work in transgender healthcare as well as other trans people who undergo treatment.

punkarsenic 2019-06-14 16:34:33 UTC #66

oh, thats good to know!

therealbereth 2019-06-15 12:52:34 UTC #67

Sleeping Poppy already pointed out that surgeries don't happen as long as the person isn't a legal adult, but I'd also like to add that there are puberty blockers! If a kid doesn't want to go through puberty because of the way their body could change into something that would worsen their dysphoria (or bring it about in the first place), they can simply take the blockers and stall everything, which I imagine is especially good for trans boys, since they avoid the boobs altogether. ^^ (edit: also, imagine trans girls evading the whole voice change! awesome)

And keep in mind, even after someone becomes a legal adult, society and the medical community as a whole actually make it hard for people to undergo such a surgery in the first place. There are a LOT of barriers to the point where people have to "prove" for years that they are trans, which leads to people dying. Simply because they are depressed because they can't live like they want to and because society would rather question their decision to transition rather than accept that they know who they are.

We shouldn't get to decide whether or not someone is trans. We also shouldn't act as if a surgery is a light-hearted decision. People think about that long and hard, and no one should be able to question their decision's validity based on cisheteronormativity.

DiegoPalacios 2019-06-15 22:01:07 UTC #68

My main concern about dysphoria comes from the effect these pains have on people, like depression.

I can see your point. Transgender people have a long story of being victims of discrimination and i guess your concern is that defining dysphoria as a disorder would make people associate transgenderism with a disorder, which would only make things worse for them.

While mental illness is stigmatized, society is moving toward acceptance. Maybe by making a distinction between gender dysphoria and transgender people, it may be possible to treat such pains caused by the dysphoria in a cheaper and safer way without adding further stigma.

Also, an important decision like gender could be made without being under constant stress, which could help them make a free and clearer decision and reduce the rate of regret.

Yes, the requisites are extremely strict when it comes to a gender change, but at the same time, if a requisite for a gender change becomes too easy it could encourage people to change gender out of convenience. Ex: identifying themselves as a woman to reduce their sentence in jail, or identifying themselves as males to have a bigger salary. Of course, those examples would not be a problem if the legislation didn`t have those double standards.

Also, rapists could exploit this to go to a women`s bathroom to abuse them in an easier way.

It is important to find the point where gender identity law can`t be exploited and where people can express their gender identity in a healthier way.

I never said surgery was a lighthearted decision, i think we all agree it is a tough proccess.
I agree that gender is something extremely personal, but legislating for it can be complex for this exact reason.

LordVincent 2019-06-16 01:02:57 UTC #69

Okay I know you mean well but let me debunk this real quick: Rapists already break the law. Rape is illegal. The sign on the door is not going to do anything, if they want to rape a woman in the women's bathroom they will do it regardless of whether they have a loophole or not.

Transgender women, however, become viewed as predators and have to fear for their lives everytime they take a piss in a public bathroom because of this idea being thrown around on the regular. All they want is to go in, pee, wash their hands and leave like any other woman. But unlike other women, they have to fear they may be taken away in handcuffs, ridiculed, maybe beaten to death by some angry father that decided he knew what was what and wanted to "defend his child".

Simultaneously, because we carry a "boys will be boys and men are inherent predators" approach in society, this provides LEEWAY to the predators to keep acting the way they do. Trans men then ALSO have to fear for their lives in the bathroom of their choice, because not only is there a risk someone will beat us up or violate us, but if they do it will be viewed as something we "brought upon ourselves". A bit like a "woman who wore too short a skirt" or was "too promiscuous", society views us as "not actually dudes, but silly butch girls who knowingly put themselves in a room full of people that obviously had no better control over their sexual desires than to take advantage of someone who walked into their domain".

Please don't say these things so lightly as they are dangerous and literally lead to transgender deaths.

SleepingPoppy 2019-06-16 02:24:01 UTC #70

I believe you're coming from a genuine place, but these aren't real things. And even if they were, the minute percentage of people that would transition for such bonkers reasons would not rise to a level to negate the needs of real trans people. Nor would access to or lack of access to such surgery prevent crime in any way. Not to mention striving for a fairer society and gender equality would be more reasonable ways of handling your pretend problems. You're just kind of ignoring the reality of what a trans person would experience. Like, my mind is a little boggled by just how unrealistic these examples are.

Also the "men in the bathroom" thing is a common transphobic talking point, just so you're aware in the future! These are the things people who genuinely hate trans people bring up to try and sound reasonable and spread hate, and it genuinely is fear mongering, so be careful! Ask questions, share thoughts, just be aware it comes in a greater context.

Hot take: we fight to close the wage gap, for prison reform, and for trans rights, we fight to make the world a better place.

DiegoPalacios 2019-06-16 03:38:22 UTC #71

I would never say something like that lightly. I met some people who suffered an attempt of rape or were raped, and one of them was my ex gf. Just hearing them tell what happened made them crack their voice (and in one case, cry uncontrollably). Their face of horror when they told the story will stay in my memory for the rest of my days. Is better not to downplay the importance of how this situation can affect people. This is a valid concern for transgender and also for cisgender people. Everyone can be a rape victim.

Completely agree about how these double standards and stereotypes just cause harm. Misoginy and Misandry is another form of bigotry that we must fight against.

I also hate this victim blaming mentality. The blame is always for the perpetrator, and those creeps are just saying disgusting excuses to keep doing disgusting things.

When making any law, is important to notice if it is exploitable and how, otherwise, it can just cause trouble for everyone, including transgenders (they could also get raped). Also, bigots could hang on these consequences to blame them and encourage more violence towards transgenders.

How much a gender law could be exploited would depends on how easy is to legally be considered of another gender. I am not talking about "transgenders raping". I am talking about people pretending to be transgender to have greater chances to rape people that may be caused by a well intended, but reckless approach towards the legislation. Also, these kind of people could create a further social stigma towards transgenders because they claim to be trans.

I am not saying to not make a gender law or to keep gender change law as strict as it is. What i mean is that is important to consider the societal repercussions and how these will be approached.

That is why is important to find a solution to this dilemma, I would not say such statements so recklessly. By finding a solution on how to approach this, it can be easier to shut up bigots. Unfortunately, some rapist have already exploited this kind of oportunities in unisex changing rooms because they gave that kind of aditional oportunity, so one could suspect rapist may attempt to exploit this kind of law if it makes it easy enough for them to do it.

Here are some statistics:

punkarsenic 2019-06-16 07:02:26 UTC #72

well, you cant really have gender dysphoria without something going on with your gender - similar feelings in cis people are usually gathered under body dysmorphia, and theres certainly an overlap between the two, so it kinda already is

the only solution to gender dysphoria is to reaffirm someones gender - socially or physically.

fortunately this is a pretty mythological situation - firstly, if i legally changed my gender to male without socially transitioning it wouldnt really change how my boss thinks of me. might make him like me less lol.

though personally i think the solution is no legal gender markers - nothing on ur birth cert, nothing on ur license, nothing on ur passport. what are they good for anyway?

this is an extremely dangerous argument used by trans exclusionary radical feminists to subtly paint trans women as rapists. there are no cases of this happening - what there are cases of is trans women and other trans people getting assaulted and harassed when trying to go to the bathroom.

abolish it! no legal markers of gender at all - people can still be women and men and anything else under the sun, but the government has no say in the matter unless theres a case of discrimination

Wumbl 2019-06-16 08:32:57 UTC #73

The difference is Gender Dysphoria. GD (sometimes it's called Gender Incongruence) is the condition of not wanting to live as the gender that goes with your birth sex, and wanting to live and be seen as another. Most of the times it comes with some level of discomfort towards the various things your birth sex entails (things like your appearance, what people call you etc.) but this can vary in intensity. Sometimes dysphoria feels hella bad, other times it's there but it's not terrible.
Transgender people like myself can't feel comfortable living with our birth assigned gender, because our brain doesn't match our body. Recently it was discovered to be because of an androgen mutation that happens before being born - the outer body parts develop one way and the brain another. The outside traits align to a sex, but the brain aligns to something else.
The reason why trans men, trans women and NB people transition (socially and/or medically, because some get surgery and some do not) is to improve our quality of life.

Gender non-conforming people are just... a common thing. Most people don't suit society's exaggerated idea of what their gender entails. Society's view of gender in recent culture is that men like beer/sport/women/cars/are indifferent to fashion etc. etc. and that women like fashion/performance arts/men/don't know about sport etc. etc.
A lot of gender non-conforming people question their gender because of this. They get the idea in their head that they might be trans. However, when they realise they don't have the desire to actually change their name/pronouns/presentation permanently and that doing these things doesn't/wouldn't make them happier/relieved. (this aspect of dysphoria is called Gender Euphoria - feeling relieved when you are able to transition)

It's important that people are educated on what transgender means, and I think the reason why there's confusion (especially recently) is that transgender education isn't being emphasised enough in schools for our generation. I was in school a few years ago and I kid you not, our lesson on LGBT themes included the phrase "transsexuals are men who wear dresses" which makes me want to vomit just thinking about my teacher saying that. It directly groups in non-conforming people into the transsexual community - in fact, it straight up dismisses transsexuality as another form of gender non-conformity. My school was run by radical feminists though, so maybe hearing TERF rhetoric was only because of the environment - maybe it's not as bad in other schools.

EDIT: There's also a myth that not all transgender people have dysphoria, but mostly that comes from a lack of understanding of what dysphoria means, like I mentioned! Because there's no reliable education on the subject, people thing "dysphoria" means hating your body or being really distressed about your assigned gender. In reality you don't have to feel really bad to be dysphoric and sometimes your dysphoria is just social, or you feel a different emotional response to it. Dysphoria has nothing to do with body image / expectations, and if you struggle with that you might have Body Dysmorphia. GD is just the medical term for wanting to change your name/pronouns/presentation to another gender.

therealbereth 2019-06-16 09:13:56 UTC #74

@DiegoPalacios I realize that you are trying to mediate between different people's wishes here, but your talking points are really just repeated fake arguments that the far right has concocted. You need to look out for the information you pick up, and where it comes from. These arguments are all made up to stall a positive development for trans people. All of them.

Also... the thought alone that someone just goes around "changing their gender" to have certain benefits? Have you looked around how transphobic this society is? No one, I repeat, no one will transition out of convenience, because it is not convenient to be called names, to undergo years of scrutiny by medical professionals, to suffer corrective rape, to earn ugly looks by people who think you don't "pass" well enough as the gender you are.

Please realize that what you are saying here is in no way logical nor representative of reality. It is harmful, and these talking points are born out of a subset of bigoted communities who actively aim to kill trans people. I'd say that listening would be your best bet from now on because while you may mean well, your words are... oof. Very much not helpful.

(P.S.: "transgender" is an adjective, the use of "transgenders" as a noun already comes from people disregarding trans people and their rights and is in itself pejorative, so look out!)

DiegoPalacios 2019-06-17 16:20:24 UTC #75

First of all, i want to apologise for touching such a sensitive point.

The beter way to debunk this argument is to show evidence of the lack of correlation between unisex bathrooms and rape.

Of course, single person unisex bathrooms would not count on this statistic, because there will be only one person using it. Some places like supermarkets have these and are extremely practical, so i think everyone would be okay with these. (this reminds me of an interesting Ted talk about how some people manipulate statistics to make the studies support their points https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ63-bQc9Xg and how to notice these flaws.)

The problem with claiming that "bigots made up this argument" as a counterargument is that it doesnt disprove their statement and could backfire because people may interpret it as "guilt tripping others into agreeing". (specially without any evidence of this accusation)

It would be just like a religious group claiming that "this is a blasphemy that only heathens would say". People who don`t share their beliefs would ignore it because it would be an ad-hominem fallacy.

a definition here:
Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.[2] The terms ad mulierem[3] and ad feminam[4] have been used specifically when the person receiving the criticism is female.

Thanks a lot for this imput. It helps to understand better. So the suffering is way worse than i thought.
Is completely understandable that people wants to live a normal life without being defined by their body and the self-consciousness this causes. But it saddens me that this self consciousness generated by gender dysphoria may make people be unconsciously more defined by their own bodies.

i used it as an adjective (that is why i mostly wrote transgender people when refering to them), but it may have slipped writing transgender without adding anything else for the sake of brevity, in which case, i apologise.

I know there are way more points you replied, but gotta go to the supermarket, so i may reply later.

punkarsenic 2019-06-17 16:41:20 UTC #76

re: this article you cited

this is talking about a very different situation.

we are talking about: trans people having their true genders legally recognised

this article is talking about: changing rooms not being gendered

so it doesnt support your argument.

heres one that is relevant, and cites UCLA, a very reputable source: