The difference between "feeling yourself like an another gender" and "being free from stereotypes about your gender"

[Wumbl]

Nobody who says it's part of the trans journey is "demanding proof" of others' dysphoria or "gatekeeping".
Gatekeeping is when your doctor says you're not trans enough to get transitional treatments bc of the way you dress or something like that.

Some people are assholes who ask invasive questions about trans people's medical journey and that's not cool but it has nothing to do with the people I've met/spoken to in the transmedicalist subgroup. Being a transmedicalist (believing that the medical side of being trans should not be forgotten) and being a nosey asshole are two different things. There are nosey horrible harassers on both sides. I know because I've been threatened and suicide baited for keeping transmed friends.

The thing is, like I said, people don't fully understand what dysphoria is. Most people who believe they're "not dysphoric but still trans" actually have GD. I did say in my original post that GD is simply the medical term for wanting to live as a different gender to what you were assigned at birth. GD is literally the medical word for trans. If you don't have the desire to live as a different gender to what you were assigned, then you're not trans. If you're assigned female at birth, and want to continue living and being perceived as female, you're cis. That's the definition of being cissexual. I've explained it already so it's kind of annoying I'm having to repeat myself.

Just because somebody doesn't know they have dysphoria, doesn't mean they don't. They probably do, but somebody told them dysphoria was this horrible ugly thing and they don't want to be associated with the word.

Also, telling somebody who has absolutely no desire to live as another gender that they're cis isn't harmful at all. If anything, it protects the validity of transsexuals so that people will stop calling us cross-dressers. If being trans can't be defined medically or it's "harmful" then that means trans people can't have our surgeries/therapies/hormones covered by our health insurance, too. If it weren't for me being able to fill out a GD report then I wouldn't have been able to get my transition covered by my country's free healthcare initiative, because my transition would no longer count as healthcare.

It doesn't feel good to have to tell people "actually you don't belong to this minority group" because nobody likes to be wrong. However, it's important that transsexuality has a definition.

I'll explain what GD is again, in more detail. that way this kind of confusion is avoided.

GD can be diagnosed from any combination of the following symptoms:

• Not feeling happy/satisfied/fully comfortable when presenting as your assigned sex.
• Wanting to be seen as a different gender to what you're assigned.
• Feeling relieved/pleased when somebody uses the correct pronoun/name that doesn't fit your assigned sex. (aka gender euphoria)
• Wanting to change your name/pronouns/physiology in order to have different gender presentation.
• Feeling strongly that you are a part of a gender that doesn't match your assigned sex.
• Being unhappy with the idea of staying the same sex you were assigned for your whole life.
• Feeling detached / confused by the sex you were assigned. (like, forgetting your body does/has certain things bc your mind doesn't register it)

These are the symptoms of dysphoria according to current medical sources, and they essentially boil down to "would you rather be a different gender to what you were given at birth? you have GD" so yeah. GD is just the medical term for the trans experience and I'm sick of misinformation. GD is both physical and social, and you don't need to have both to be considered dysphoric. Some people are more dysphoric about a small handful of things associated with their birth gender, and that's just as valid as being dysphoric about everything. All forms of transition count, whether you stop at changing your pronouns and name because you're not so sure about getting physical treatments or whether you get as many treatments as possible. Everyone's transition is different. I'm dysphoric about some things and not others.

[skicoak]

As someone who frequently gets labelled as falling under the "dominant ideology" of gender/sexual politics, I think there's a demographic of people, like myself, who get labeled as apathetic about these subjects... when it's more a state of information overload/fatigue.

There's a real level of social paralysis in engaging into subjects that are currently in a shifting state of definitional flux and which are so important/emotional to those being defined (or setting the definitions).

And...There's been a real philosophical shift socially in using "labels". Generationally, we spent decades being told "labeling" was bad when it came to alternative lifestyles. But now, proper identification has become important to many people, for a variety of reasons.

a lot of narratives can get suppressed by the dominant ideology

So to say, a lot of what might be occurring isn't textbook "suppression" as much as a lack of investment in the permanence of these narratives. Maybe, once the definitions start to solidify more, there will be a shift in attitudes among many who seem oppressive/apathetic at this point.

[therealbereth]

If you don't have the desire to live as a different gender to what you were assigned, then you're not trans. If you're assigned female at birth, and want to continue living and being perceived as female, you're cis. That's the definition of being cissexual. I've explained it already so it's kind of annoying I'm having to repeat myself.

Oh, I know. Did my post seem like I questioned that? Hm.

I was talking about people who don't feel the need to transition—their body. Who have pinpointed that most of their dysphoric feelings (when, if, they have them) come from society's expectations (to pass, for example). Again, I can't speak from experience as a cis person, obviously, but only repeat what I heard other trans people tell me and others.

And I am aware of the danger it could pose to separate gender dysphoria from the trans experience when it comes to the wish to transition! To get rid of the term for medical purposes would be devastating for anyone who wants to transition. But maybe that's where body dysphoria and gender dysphoria often get muddled. I've talked to people who struggled to even look at themselves, while others separated gender from body altogether and felt fine just the way they are.

Maybe we were talking about different things and the people I talked to mostly meant body dysphoria, which, as I understand it, is one of many symptoms of gender dysphoria. And that, I think, would really be weird to set as a prerequisite to be valid as a trans person.

But I admit, I didn't know that the medical terminology used to diagnose gender dysphoria was so... simple? It certainly isn't enforced like that, not in my country at least. People have to jump through all kinds of hoops to "prove" their gender. I can't imagine how tiring, dysphoric and dangerous for their health that must be.

In any case, thanks for taking the time to go more into detail.

So to say, a lot of what might be occurring isn't textbook "suppression" as much as a lack of investment in the permanence of these narratives.

We've only recently had to fight a dumb new law in Germany that would have made lives for our trans siblings even harder. Our government seriously wanted them to continue to have to go to court with not one, but two medical assessments of their transness; and on top of that, the law would have required to hear out the spouse of the person in question. And if they were denied, they would've needed to wait THREE YEARS to apply for transition again.

This is active oppression.

[Wumbl]

Ah, right... I forget that sometimes people refer to different aspects of transition with different words. I think we just confused each other at first because of how confusing language can be. Oops.

I get that people get mixed up between body dysphoria and overall dysphoria... I think that, yeah, the people you were referring to were maybe experiencing social dysphoria and very little body dysphoria. That's a pretty common experience, especially for non-binary people!

And yeah, I think a lot of establishments overcomplicate things to make it harder for transsexuals to get treatment. Luckily my system just requires you to see a general practice doctor and a gender specialist before you can start getting treatments prescribed... our wait lists are inflated because of how many people in my country are questioning their gender at the moment, but it's not like you can't get it...

But there are a lot of systems where people experience medical gatekeeping and that really sucks because not being able to alleviate your dysphoria and get the treatment you need is super oppressive. What you mentioned about having to wait 3 years between requests is honestly not fair at all.

[skicoak]

This is active oppression.

It's active governmental/bureaucratical oppression.

Which isn't exactly the same thing as being oppression from the populace that isn't engaged on either side of that... or most these issues.

I can't really speak on the mindset of the average German citizen but say here in America when things like this happen... it's usually non-representative of the middle.

[Wumbl]

The definition of oppression explains that it comes from a place of authority. If something is being done by the government or bureaucracy, it's oppression.

You can't be oppressed by the populace. The populace can commit hate crimes against you, but oppression comes from above.

A law/legal system/corporate entity preventing you from getting support or help as a minority is oppression. People in the general populace bullying, harassing or attacking you is just bigotry.

[skicoak]

The definition of oppression explains that it comes from a place of authority.

In these cases, it's govermental oppression that identifies itself as representative of the people.

I really don't want to play dueling definitions/word games over this.

My point remains that sections of the populace are moved to inactivity by the speed at which gender/sexual politics move definitionaly. It's not from a state of bigotry.

[Mari]

I just. Why does it need to be defined? Isn't the whole point that you yourself and nobody else gets to define it? As long as you as an outsider are supporting and understanding by whatever someone else identifies as, isn't that enough?

If you have trouble defining yourself, try out new things. See what you feel is comfortable. Worst place to seek out help in your self-definition is internet forums.

//edited

[Wumbl]

I 100% agree that people should be able to explore their identities on their own... but I also feel that people should be paying attention to their actual experiences first and labels second.

The most important thing is that you actually know what's going on before you put a name to it. Rushing to call yourself "trans" when you don't actually know if you are, that can be harmful because people are just jumping the gun. You can want to cut your hair short and enjoy masculine hobbies while being AFAB. It doesn't necessarily mean you have to change your name and pronouns. People shouldn't be pressured to pick out labels that don't fit.

We should encourage people to take time, seek information and experiment until they figure out what's right for them. People shouldn't be rushing to label themselves, in my opinion. Labels are just a way of describing your experience to others, and at the end of the day that's the least important part of your identity.

However, I don't agree that gender is something you "choose to identify with/as" because that particular statement has roots in transphobia. It's not a choice to be transgender, or to identify with a certain gender. You just identify a certain way, and you don't get to pick and choose. It's not a choice to be LGBT in any capacity, and people have died trying to get that particular fact known.

[Mari]

I didn't mean it's a choice. I meant for the gender-non-confirm people, who afaik make the choice to not enforce the labels of society. Being trans etc is obviously not a choice. I used a poor choice of words, and that's all there was to that.

English is not my first language, sometimes these sorta hiccups happen. So I'm not going to argue with you, because I agree with you : p

[Wumbl]

Yeah, that's understandable. English is my first language but even I make slip-ups when reading because of a slight neurodivergence I have!

Also yeah, I 100% support GNC people doing whatever. If I wanna wear make-up I will do so, because it's not just girls that can wear it. If I wanna wear something with a femme aesthetic bc I like it, I'll do it. It's horrible when I see parents refusing to let their son have something because it's pink.

[Mari]

Yeah exactly. My older brother (cis male) used to sneak my eyeliner and powder etc all the time when we still lived at our childhood home, and I was cool with it since he couldn't ask my parents for one for himself and he wasn't brave enough to buy one for himself either.

[punkarsenic]

It's active governmental/bureaucratical oppression.

Which isn't exactly the same thing as being oppression from the populace that isn't engaged on either side of that... or most these issues.

I can't really speak on the mindset of the average German citizen but say here in America when things like this happen... it's usually non-representative of the middle.

then why talk abt the populace / popular opinion at all? nobody here is, weve been talking abt legislation and the actions of the powerful. it feels like ur defending someone who isnt coming under fire here

[skicoak]

then why talk abt the populace / popular opinion at all? nobody here is, weve been talking abt legislation and the actions of the powerful.

Because they're intrinsically linked... legislation is meant to be representative of the populace but as you defined it, some of the narratives are suppressed by a dominant ideology.

I'm pointing out that the "dominant ideology" might not be easily defined as such. There's likely support that stays out of the conversation/public debate due to a state of isolation from the instability of agreed upon terminology and ideology.

[punkarsenic]

for the record, i wasnt referring to individuals or the populace when i talk abt dominant ideology. im a marxist, im all abt systems of power - ill target the supreme court a thousand times before i target a grandad who gets nervous around queers

[punkarsenic]

also, i wonder if this video would give you some food for thought, as it addresses the 'im not a bigot but i just dont Get It' kind of line of thinking (and it does not accuse the viewer or anyone of being transphobic, inb4 your hackles rise)

[skicoak]

...before i target a grandad who gets nervous around queers

'im not a bigot but i just dont Get It'

I'm not talking about either of those groups or situations.

I'm talking more about the speed and flux in the language/terminology/ideology freezing up individuals who end up looking apathetic when they're really just less likely to engage now due to uncertainty about what is the new social norms for discourse.

Maybe a small example will help...

During the last push, by some, to adapt to non-sexually identifying pronouns, my cousin ( who identifies as asexual ) was taking some grief in her social circle for using feminine language to identify herself. She related that it was like being put into a position where any stance she took was wrong solely by her desire not to offend any parties involved. And I fully understood her dilemma, her sexual identity was being used to define gender choices... and it created an uncertainty.

[punkarsenic]

right... i dont really get that? what does her asexuality have to do with her gender? do you mean agender?

i get that sometimes the twitterbrain can get really obnoxious about A: everyone being Right About Everything OR evil, and B: batshit terminology not applicable irl... im just not sure why we're talking abt this? it feels like a non-sequitur so im just thrown off

[DiegoPalacios]

i didn`t meant to be smug, and sorry if my coment came up that way. Yes, my sourcing was poor......very poor, and thanks for showing that.

[skicoak]

it feels like a non-sequitur so im just thrown off

It wasn't meant to be a reaction to any specific point as much as a general thought about a reoccurring theme throughout the thread about opposition/resistance to things being related.

Just a general point about the state of many of the "bystanders/lurkers"