The Importance of Story vs Art on Webtoons (and possible Tapas)?

[fleohr]

I agree, there is a comic I was subbed that got featured because of the art, tbh the writting is getting quite erm bad, but it's just my opinion tho, it's possibly because the author never thought about being featured and it's their first comic, or care more about the art than the writting hm

[Hodge]

Yeah, webtoons does prioritize art, but I think part of it is just trying to set a standard for quality on the site, which has definitely gone up in the past couple years, and definitely has even more room to improve I think. The only problem is they want great art, but also want weekly updates of 50+ panels . . . which is really really difficult if you aren't doing this full time. The creator of Lets Play took a big risk and quit her job to work on her comic and upload it onto Discover. Or like right now, a lot of people who submit to the contest either are giving up or rushing to meet the minimum requirements on time.

[DokiDokiTsuna]

1st of all, Normal is gorgeous and I'm in love. Subbed!
However, it's much more slow-moving than AHC, in terms of plot. And AHC explains itself to you in the very first episode, while Normal is more enigmatic, leaving you wondering what to expect.

I think that THIS is why AHC is more popular: readers can easily tell what they've gotten into, and they get more updates with more entertainment in each update. It is an "easy" story to enjoy.

If you made a comic with an art style like Normal's but with faster pacing and a more transparent story, I think it would get a similar amount of attention, if not more (the art is seriously so gorgeous~). So it's not really an art vs. story thing so much as a story vs. story thing.

[ashersz]

My art in the beginning was a struggle but im still improving. I think a lot of people stick around mainly due to story

[Swamp]

I think there's also... like if you look at them less in competition, and more as two factors with different nets.

You can gauge art quality right away. One image, and you have a pretty good idea what you're getting. Story, however, takes a long time to prove itself. I think it's kinda like looks vs personality in a person. Walking down the street, nobody's going to notice a good personality, but they will notice good looks. As they get to know you, looks matter less and less and, if your personality isn't interesting enough to stay, they'll lose interest. And bubbly, bright, flirty stories will get more attention and interest off the bat than quiet, introspective ones.

I think there's also a factor of art being good enough to tell the story. I'd argue one of the biggest reasons art is important isn't a scale, but a bar. First, the art needs to be strong enough to tell the story. If you can't communicate action and expression, nobody will know how good your story is. Second, it needs to not distract the reader. I think part of what you might be seeing is that both your stories are above the art bar. If you had a third option that was the most beautifully written, exciting, generically clickable story as drawn with your left hand in MS paint, you'd get 3 subs tops, while if you had a beautifully drawn, fully painted, inaccessible and pretentious meditation on the hummus industry, you might still get a decent handful of people willing to wait around and see if it went anywhere.

[yozhikisblue]

I find this thread really interesting, mostly because it reminds me of how much I feel like an outsider looking in when I see what the majority of Tapas and Webtoon comics look like.

I get the impression that both Webtoon and Tapas are most keen to feature comics which are heavily stylized (i.e. in a style reminiscent of popular manga, with a handful of exceptions for Western cartoon styles- Steven Universe comes to mind) and those which follow the vertical format (to be honest, I really don't like the look of the vertical format compared to a more traditional print format- especially since I always read comics on my laptop).

It's really hard for me to judge what is considered quality art by the curators based on the selection I see being promoted on the front page of either website. Most of it genuinely doesn't appeal to me very much- and I don't necessarily feel wowed by it from a technical perspective either.

Maybe I just sound old and grumpy at the ripe old age of 25? x')

On the other hand, I keep running into absolutely gorgeous comics on either website that seem to be getting very little attention- but I'm sure, based on art alone, would draw people instantly at a convention or brick-and-mortar comic book shop.

Some examples that come to mind of comics that haven't broken 1K subscribers (in two cases not even over a 100!) despite over a year of stunning artwork and great writing:

SUPERPOSE | Tapas

Sun's blade | Tapas

Obscurus | Tapas

The only common factors I can find between the comics that don't get attention against all odds are this:
1. They are not drawn in a style reminiscent of manga.
2. They do not feature high school/college settings or characters- in fact, they tend towards darker, more mature characters and settings in general. (I'm not implying that darker = more mature btw, sometimes it's quite the opposite- but in this case it's both)
3. They either don't use the vertical format at all, or are otherwise doing something very unusual with the formatting.

Whether the story or art are "good" don't seem to play much of a factor at all.

Maybe someone else can explain what's holding them back? Why aren't these wonderful comics getting more views? Because short of what I've already mentioned, it completely baffles me...

P.S. To the OP- I hope this doesn't sound like a condemnation of your work- I definitely don't mean it that way at all! I admit I'm probably not the target audience for your stories, but I can appreciate you also put a lot of work and passion into what you do!

[seru]

Webtoons' algorithm also plays a major role. Your work beings on recommended and spotlight will give you a surge of subs. However, those subs will most likely not follow your work religiously than the ones you obtained organically on your own.

Now, both of your comics are aesthetically pleasing. When you get pass the art, the readers will stay for the story. Also, if the story gets bad, they will stay for the art. It's a weird dynamic but that's what I have experienced with my comics.

Mainstream stories will always do better than niche but mainstream stories are easily forgotten than niche stories.

Mainstream = easy, digestible content
Niche = has a deeper meaning and you have to think to understand it.

[Swamp]

I looked at the three of these, and I think the biggest thing with all of them is readablity.

Tapas and Webtoon having a young audience is, of course, a factor. People tend to want stories about people their own age with issues they can relate to.

I think the format is even bigger though.
Obscurus is gorgeous, and I am putting it on my to read list, but also...small text? Dark, cluttered lines? (it's also got 8.2K, which I don't think is half bad). But I won't read it know. Because I'd have to use my phone, and I couldn't see it at all.
As an older reader who likes all styles, neither of the other two appealed to me either. Superpose combines the anime/disney style with realism and large lower jaws in a way that hits uncanny valley for me. Sun's blade is lovely, especially the forest, but the plot is inherently isolated in a way that doesn't tend to appeal to me.
I think for every more Indie Illustrator Style comic you think deserves more love, there's an equally wonderful 'anime' comic that isn't getting love. I can see how both styles might be a turn off to certain readers. It's also a major factor that most of the popular comics on Webtoon are not western artists drawing anime, it's Korean artists working in the popular Korean style translated for an English speaking audience.

Also, yaoiarmy (your screen name makes you very weird to address, troops), I don't think that's a good definition of mainstream and niche, especially since I think a popular thing can be easy to read, and deep shouldn't mean Hard To Digest. I'd go with

Mainstream - Includes themes and styles currently popular with the main demographic that many people will enjoy and connect with
Niche - Includes styles and themes not popular with the main demographic that appeals to a specific demographic

For example, there's a mystery writer who only writes novels that involve lots of details about crafting decorative gourds. It's not particularly more or less deep/valuable, but it doesn't mean her reviews are a combination of people annoyed that the romance has too many gourds, and a few gourd crafters who are over the moon.

I'm really proud of my comic. I also have under 25 subs after almost 50 pages, but I knew that going on. Besides being slow, it's not a shiny type of fantasy, my characters are quite young, and my art is a weird style to a lot of people. (I expect more readers when my characters hit 15 tbh) But like... I really try and avoid attitudes that put that on others being dumb or lazy or sheeple. If I'm not appealing to them, either I've messed up, or I've decided not to and I'm happy to take the hit!

[yozhikisblue]

Oh dear. The last thing I want someone to take away from my comment is that I think they're less popular because readers are

being dumb or lazy or sheeple.

This is not what I meant. Not do I think indie styles are superior. I hold no such pretentious opinions at all. But I can understand comment sections sometimes get heated because of this kind of misunderstanding, so to curtail that possibility- I also read webcomics that align with more mainstream themes and art. I don't think there's anything wrong with either.

But maybe you were responding to @theyaoiarmy with that second part? I wasn't quite sure...

As far as the actual popularity of Obscurus and the other comics I listed...8.2K was the number of views, but it has under 100 subscribers. It's entirely possible there are many manga style comics set in a highschool setting that are being unfairly passed over. I don't dispute that. I just find they seem disproportionately represented among popular comics on either site- and since they don't appeal to me very much as a reader, and I find comics that do appeal to me getting buried- it's a bit frustrating to see this happen.

At the end of the day I know what I'm creating is also something quite niche. But the fact is I am creating the kind of work that would appeal to me- and if nobody created that kind of work, even knowing it wouldn't appeal to a majority of people- I would always be surrounded by things that made me feel alienated and out of place. I'm sure there are other people in the world who feel the same way. Maybe I can reach them. And that's probably the loftiest goal I have. I imagine some of the people creating the comics I mentioned have similar feelings and goals.

[Swamp]

Sorry I was not responding to either of you in particular, just my own personal ethos on what's popular. Sorry to put it in a place where it seemed like I was implying that of either of you.

(And you're right, I totally misread the numbers on obscurus)
I guess I just meant... not that you had implied it, but I think it's easy to respond to what you love getting looked over by being frustrated at the people who look it over, or frustrated at the people who make it, and that frustration can easily move to judgement. I find I have to really work to either take inspiration and see what those styles are offering people, and then decide if that's something I should bring to my work, or a hit I need to take to be true to my story. I would definitely benefit from learning how more popular "anime" style artists keep their lines so clean and easy to read, but would not benefit from trying to make myself write romance for clicks. Sometimes I find myself getting judgmental about "ugh another boring romance" without really considering the value it might be bringing to the writer or it's readers that I'm overlooking because I'm not the person it's supposed to reach.

I totally feel where you're coming from. I don't connect to much fiction, tbh, and what I do tends not to succeed in popular circles. I love some popular stuff, but it's often not what resonates with me. (Some of it is though! I am so pumped to see it) And, at the end of the day, a lot of what does succeed isn't quality or trends, it's luck and good marketing, and that's a skill to admire too.

[beta1042]

hmmm I feel this is a bit of a bold statement for s sample size where the range in quality just isn't big enough...

What I mean to say is, the art is definitely very important to a point. You need a minimal quality of art for the average person to consider your story, subscribe to it, and stay. Both your comics obviously meet this minimal standard. And considering you're the same artist, there's probably not a big enough difference in quality for it to make a huge difference to the average reader who doesn't know much about art.

However, once meeting that minimal requirement, I think more than "story" it is genre that has the biggest pull. People search by genre, because they want to read the types of a stories they want. They look for specifc tropes they want to read in those genres. Your all haven academy is going to trigger those major tropes and genres way more than your normal comic. Just from the title and thumbnail and genres alone(not reading descriptions or looking at first chaps or anything else)- I can tell it's a romance, that takes place in a super natural school, probably has a love triangle, and they look like chill school-aged people eating their snacks(AKA relatable characters for majority audience of webtoon)... like honestly thats enough for a lot of readers right there to subscribe. For normal it has a very unrevealing name, the picture reveals quality art, but I literally know nothing else about it aside from it's romance fantasy based on the genres.

Now ultimately, whether or not they stay will probably depend on the writing/story/and consistency of the art. But you're talking about having 2 days on recommended and how many subs that yields. not sure how many people actually read the story in those 2 days?

[solhawthorne]

Second, it needs to not distract the reader.

This so much. I have found many comics where the text was too distracting (too small, bad font, too many typos, bad panel flow) or the art was in uncanny valley or irked me. Superpose is actually a pretty good example of my border - I'm subscribed because the plot and characters feel so alive, but jeezus the eyes and lips are absolutely huge.

To me, I actually don't mind cliched, simplistic, re-hashed, re-told, same-old stories (as long as it's in my genre lol) because I read comics for entertainment and I am very easily entertained, but I never ever ever want to be distracted from my entertainment. I want to be like "STOP BEING AN IDIOT, MAIN CHARACTER!" and not "That's... not how eyes work..."

I know I spoke from personal experience, everyone will have different thresholds for artistic beauty and story tastes, but nobody will stay for a comic that breaks immersion... and very, very often, it's the art that breaks that immersion. That's why I believe you see art disproportionately the reason for rejecting/accepting any given comic. You're supposed to say "they're both important!!!" but honestly, art just has a greater impact because it's so easy for an artistic quirk to rub someone wrong immediately.

[fleohr]

Wow, Superpose looks like one of those indie cartoon movies, but also pretty niche for LW readers imo, damn

[yozhikisblue]

@solhawthorne

but nobody will stay for a comic that breaks immersion

You know...I'm not sure about this...

For example, I'm a bit of an anatomy nerd- and when I see comics where the artist is aiming for realism but has a poor grasp of anatomy or movement- it really bothers me, the way seeing something filed in a wrong folder just makes me cringe a bit. And anatomy is one of those things where you really don't have to be an expert to feel that something is "off". People can recognize awkward proportions or "wrongness" in a drawing intuitively, without having ever studied art. But there are many popular comics, both on Tapas and Webtoon, where the creators make repeated errors in anatomy- and nobody seems to fault them for this. Their view count and number of subscriptions don't falter as a result. (I don't want to link specific example so as not to single anyone out for criticism).

I suspect the truth is that for most people, even immersion-breaking mistakes can be overlooked when a genre or art style attracts them. I mean...I don't know how else to explain the BL comics that remain popular despite awkward anatomy and depictions of sex that aren't physically possible...

And I do think an art style looking "weird" or "different" can play a big part in someone's first reaction being skewed towards the negative if it's not something they're used to seeing. It's a bit harsh, but I think when something appears popular or resembles something popular, people are more likely to give it a chance, even if they might not otherwise have been interested in it. They're also, I think, more likely to dwell on positive features and ignore negative ones based on the subconscious bias that "if so many people like it- there must be something to it." And so we get fads...until it backfires because the same people are looking for something new from over-saturation of a particular style or narrative, and a new fad begins...

[amortelito]

I was subbed that got featured because of the art, tbh the writting is getting quite erm bad

True, the art might get the initial attention but the story makes you stay or leave.

I'm almost ashamed to say this but I stopped subscribing to featured comic or comics that have spectacular visuals, at least until they have published a full chapter or develop the story a bit. Maybe is bad luck but the stories have been so underwhelming despite the strong start. I have found so many jewels that don't have the most professional art but they have something special.
And of course, there are the ones that have it all, amazing story, beautiful art, and the spark.

[akiocha]

ahh thank you for subbing and i'm glad you enjoy it! and Yes, i think I completely get where you're coming from. It's two slightly different demographics. I guess a lot of people enjoy instant gratification. It's been interesting to read all the different opinions people have had on art vs story telling

[akiocha]

Absolutely no offence was taken by your post, in fact I found it interesting to read (I don't get offended by genuine opinions)

I also agree with a lot of what you said. I definitely agree that vertical scroll comics do better and I know for a FACT that both tapas and webtoons prefer it, (I mean, it is the type of comic they want and are aiming towards). I think in general, if the topics are more serious/darker, it doesn't hit as large a crowd so it just doesn't see as much interaction and appreciation. Especially on Tapas, where unless you get promoted, you barely see ANY growth. I mean my tapas one for AHA (the popular one) is a little under 5k i think? but the webtoons is 70k and even from the very begining saw much better growth and interaction. So a part of that is also the fact that tapas has really really bad cycling of smaller comics imo.

[akiocha]

That's the exact reason why I posted this, to see if any other people have similar or different opinions or experiences. I can only speak for myself and how I view planning my comic for the future, I didn't mean for it to come across as an all encompassing generalisation.

I think what you said probably aligns with what I feel as well. I agree that story is like the long term pull I guess.

As for the recommended stats, both comics were on there for about a week I think for normal. and just under a month for AHA, I just averaged the stats over two days for the sake of keeping things simple. But yeah, it's true with all these new comics, people might possibly just have a lot of other things to read

[fleohr]

About the featured comics, I think it's possibly because they have to make a certain number of episodes for a season, if they go well, they can continue for another season. Maybe that's why most of the featured comics has a good start and after a couple episodes it changes to something more casual, non-canon, random, so they can "fill" the gaps for the requirement of a season

[beta1042]

I think it was the tldr that came off as a generialization to me XD but it makes sense in your case. I guess to me art plays the biggest role if we were to compare say your comic to a person who is a complete novice in art. It doesn't matter if they were an incredibly experiences writer with an amazing story idea that appeals to the masses, if they don't know how to draw the comic or emotions or anything to a certain stndard it would never compare.