To -Chan or Not To -Chan

[rollo75]

The subject of Honorifics in Japanese hangs on an entire social structure and where everyone fits into that.
Usually the only time you see honorifics in manga is when there is a deliberate attempt to highlight the relationship between two people.

For a series with its origins in English - I'd almost certainly suggest don't.

[rollo75]

So if it is a brazilian talking in japanese with japanese people, chances they are going to drop the "kun" or "chan" or "whatever" are not low.

If a Brazilian was in Japan talking with Japanese people, it would be the same as me, an Australian talking with Japanese people.
We are gaijin - "outside" people. We are the bottom of the stack in society. EVERYONE ELSE is at least -san for us. There are no -chans and no -kuns. Even if the person was 3 years old, they still outrank us.
Mostly they are -san, -sama, -tono or -ue.

[SpavVy]

Not To -Chan!
If you're not Japanese, don't live in Japan or if your story doesn't take place there then please, don't use it!

[SpavVy]

I agree 100% with you on this one, not only is it weeaboo-ish but it's also vary annoying and I find it sad that a lot of new creators are trying to be so much like the Japanese mangakas when they add all of that. The suffixes, their sound effects and the right to left direction just drives me up a wall...

[talissacosta1]

If you are polite/used to the honorifics, that's how it should be, but I am saying in case the person isn't, or didn't learn about this enough while having Japanese language classes, we are just not used to using honorific.

I am taking Korean classes and feel very uncomfortable whenever it comes to my mind that Koreans treat people older or younger in very different ways, I would drop and ask them to drop honorific all the time. And I am not the only one. A friend said she got crazy how Asians asked her age right away when she was in Germany. But this is not something I am learning in my classes, but mostly from random YouTube videos.

[KiaraNovaStar]

Actually, I draw my manga from right to left. If you have the slightest intentions of translating your manga, I don't think the Japanese readers will be pleased with your left to right format. Anyway, it's not that pretentious... Since basically ALL manga actually is read from right to left (unless a translator decides to flip the manga around for whatever reason) A right to left manga in English is not that uncommon, but a left to right manga in Japanese would be weird. This is probably just a personal thing but Japanese sound effects don't bother me, because it helps me learn Japanese sound effects. xD But if you're trying to look professional it definitely doesn't help, since the only time you'll come across Japanese sound effects in an otherwise English manga is if you're reading a fan scanlation... And I don't think anyone wants their manga to look like a scanlation.

[KiaraNovaStar]

Um, where did you get this information? The Japanese 'hierarchy' system is based on your age and social position, not your social background...?

[myung]

I thought rollo75 was referring to nationality since he typed "gaijin". An American or European, actually anyone other than a Japanese citizen, living in Japan for instance. In which case, then it is definitely a factor.

[myung]

Here I think the poster was referring to a comic originally meant for English language. I mean, by the same logic, many Japanese comic artists know their comic will be read globally, but very few reorienrate their panels for localization, and even less still will layout their original pages from left to right because he or she suspects it will eventually be translated into English.

I can't speak about your comic because I don't know who your primary audience is, so you might be presenting an entirely different case.

[SpavVy]

I don't really have intentions on having it translated to Japanese because I have no idea how popular my story will get. The only way I'd agree to translate it to Japanese is if a publisher from Japan was to contact me which will never happen lol I plan to go to self publishing so if I was to use the Japanese format it would make things a lot harder in regards to publishing plus printing is expensive so getting it flipped I can imagine would be a pain as well. If it was brought over to Japan I'd like it to stay in it's original English format personally, since we had to get used to their format then I don't see a problem with them having to do the same >:D

[KiaraNovaStar]

@myung Well, yeah, I meant background as in where you're from, which includes anyone from a foreign country. And the thought of an foreign adult addressing a kid as their superior sounds really really weird (unless the kid was from an upper class family and that person was their butler or something. But that's a very unusual situation. xD). I have never heard of a foreigner address a child as their superior just because of where they're from...? And it's a little different for Japanese artists because the main fanbase for manga IS Japanese.

@Savannah I wouldn't imagine it to be that hard to get it translated, there seem to be sites popping up that offer to translate your manga into Japanese and there are also people who like translating works into their own language... But I have never a actually done any of that so maybe I'm completely wrong and it's actually really difficult. ^^;

I actually see a lot of (good) right to left manga, even if they are written for the English language. I think my favourite webmangas are actually read from right to left. Maybe these people hope to have their works professionally translated into Japanese one day, or they are learning Japanese and hope to translate them themselves when they've reached a certain level of proficiency. Personally I'm the latter, getting picked up by a publisher would be nice (or maybe not so nice) but it's unlikely. x3 And then there's the fact that it simply feels good to trick someone into thinking they're reading an actual Japanese manga. xD

[myung]

@Lumnili Oh no, we are talking about different posts. My impression was that the post was addressing the hierarchy that exists between a non Japanese citizen and a foreigner. Sounds like the child bit may have been an exaggeration to make a point.

Also, I saw this topic being about a comic inspired by Japanese comic art but written for English speakers. I question the utility of using a graphic flow that opposes the natural eye movement of one's first and major readers. Even if down the road the comic will be localized. So the situation for a Japanese comic artist is the same for artists creating a comic primarily for English Language audiences because their main fanbase are English speakers.

Again, I'm not referring to your situation since your comic's fanbase may have a large percentage of non L->R readers.

[cyanste]

Koreans treat people older or younger in very different ways

IDK, maybe it's because I'm Korean, but it does make sense. You treat your elders with more respect, and you can see it in the words we use (like how in other countries, they have more/less words for colors, etc). Now this is going off on a tangent. Where's op?!

[rollo75]

First hand experience mainly.

As a foreigner living in Japan, your social position is dirt. There is a large degree of politeness but a massive undercurrent of sentiment which very much lets you know that you do not belong.

The whole 内- 外 Uchi-Soto (inside-outside) issue is very ingrained and unless you've spent years in the country, you'll never be "inside". This extends right through company structures and families.

Five-minutes to be an acquaintance; fifty years to be a friend.

[KiaraNovaStar]

Ok, I see what you mean now. That sucks. But surely it's possible for a foreigner to become highly respected... Maybe more uncommon, but not impossible. Especially if they are highly trained in a certain field before coming over.

[Jelw]

Speaking as a highschool foreign Exchange student studying abroad for a year in Japan, I disagree firmly.
If you are an adult with a job, then all of your honorifics will likely be -san but in my case I have a lot of different situations.
At school almost all students call their friends by a first name basis or a shortened first name basis. (I call my friend Meiko "Mei" for instance.) Some students may call other classmates by their last name with no suffix, or first name-kun for the boys. Girls are likely to call one another chan, but not boys so much. It all comes down to whatever the classmate asks to be called. Adding -san in a close relationship just feels awkward and my friends and I only do it to joke.
With host families, I used otousan and okaasan for my first family, but my second host family asked me to refer to them as Ken-chan and Sho-chan so I do, as does their son. (Again shortened from their names Kenji and Shouko).
Outside of those closer relationships I use san, but saying you'll be using them with everyone just because of a foreigner status is absurd. Although it also depends on how traditional your prefecture is as well.

[talissacosta1]

I don't know, I heard koreans treat people a few months or years later with a lot of respect and... distance? o-õ Here it is pretty much the same level, except for people that are older and ignore younger people's opinion because "younger people know nothing".

Like... I am not saying it is wrong, it is culture, it is just... different/awkward for us. And also... hard to translate. In portuguese, we do not have words for "nii-san" or "nee-san", we just call siblings by their names or nicknames, and when they translate it to like "Big bro"... it just sounds ridiculous, like... SUPER unnatural and awkward. We just don't use that... Like... never ever. But nii-san or oppa sound just right / way better without translation.

The right to left thing. There is something interesting, I think if you are overly used to reading things right to left, it just feels more natural to draw everything in a right to left movement. I do that a lot of times. I write from left to right, but then I draw something that feels like... an... unnatural movement, and I notice it is because it is like the character is moving from right to left, because I am used to that flow.

I don't think the way you read the dialogue is a problem, but the way you read the images is really important. I know I sound confusing, but... Don't forget it xD

[alakotila]

Personally I am less concerned with the usage of suffixes than I am of setting a comic in Japan without having an understanding of the culture. (I am assuming it is set in Japan?)

Adding the name suffixes will add that taste of Japanese culture and is probably what some of your audience may be looking for; those who are familiar with it, however, will be turned-off. It is pretty hard for me to read comics with Japanese characters set in Japan by people who know only the bare minimum of what school life, much less Japanese culture, is like, scraping by on things gleaned from manga.

Very few of my Japanese friends use chan with me, though some do, even when speaking English so I honestly don't find it that awkward. Plus, suffixes like chan and kun kind of denote something we can't easily say in English, so they are left intact in many translated works. As you can see, there are some strong arguments for yay or nay. You can write about whatever you want. Just take care, treat it with respect, and do your research (which is part of the reason you asked, so that's good!). If you want to do it, go for it! It is your decision in the end.

• In terms of hierarchy, it is so freaking complicated and unless you have experienced it, it is really hard to describe. Japanese Language books kind of make it seem cut and dry. It is not! I lived in Japan for three years. New homeroom teachers called all students -san, and even halfway through the semester most of the girls were still san while the boys became kun in JHS and ES (in special cases, chan, but it is very very uncommon). Only in elementary schools did I see san become chan regularly for girls. In very formal situations, all students became san again (i.e. graduation). As for what I was addressed as, usually sensei or san, sometimes nothing at all. I never used suffixes for the students though, and called my coworkers and friends by what they asked me to call them … regardless of age. One of my dance teachers, only a few years older than me, was called -chan by everyone -- even the third graders! Because of how I learned Japanese, with all that hierarchy junk, it took me a very veeerrrry long time to call him chan. Still, better to err on the side of safety and use san, I thought!

… I did live in Kyushu though, and I am told it is much more laid-back than the mainland. So yes, in the end, the suffixes can be complicated.

[r0ckrabbi7]

here's a fun fact for you: Japan isn't the only country that has a word for "older brother" etc. :b

On topic, I agree best with @cyanste's comment: i'd use/not use it depending on the setting and the audience i'm looking for.
The main character in my story is half-Japanese (curse you, weaboo years), but lived most of her life in America and she doesn't use these honorifics. Part of the story, however, takes her back to Japan to look for answers, and I am still unsure if I should go for the honorifics then or not. I'm more on the "no" side, but it's still debatable. urgh

[UltHamBro]

You could add the honorifics when she's to Japan as a way to indicate the language she's really speaking.
I remember reading about some manga in which the characters were supposed to be speaking both English and Japanese depending on the context, and English translation used the honorifics to show that the characters were speaking Japanese: no honorifics meant "they're actually speaking English", honorifics meant "now they're speaking Japanese".