What do you do when you've made your villains too sympathetic?

[HGohwell]

Huh, didn't know the Symphogear guy did Yu-Gi-Oh as well.

Yeah, quite hilariously (and sadly) he ends up taking the blame for the back half of both 5ds and Arc V going down hill and "ruining" series that were building up to be the best rated spin offs, since fandoms as a whole don't seem to realise he left both about half way through, roughly at the point where the quality and subsequently ratings start to drop and both times went to work on Symphogear instead. And he does seem to love the theme of good people doing bad things because they think it's for the best.

[aqua03]

Yeah, that makes sense. It'll probably be best to treat everything as a larger whole and just keep moving forward instead of putting each part in a vacuum like i have been doing it seems. The pieces will probably come together the more I work on it going forward. I should also just start working on Character designs as well, especially because i have some conflicting ideas on what I want for them. (Like the mad scientist for example. Split between him being a smug Mark Zuckerburg type or more of a Dr. Eggman type of character.)

@HGohwell

Behind the scenes productions are always fascinating to me.

[nathanKmcwilliams]

(shudders. The face of true evil. Zuckerberg XD)

Got just a bit more advice, if this doesn't apply, feel free to ignore.

Keep creativity on your terms.

When you feel boxed in or stuck, break the rut by switching tactics. I've had to do this many times, especially while drawing panels. When I get frustrated by something, I have to really fight the urge to not focus on it. (Believe it or not, I actually lose this battle more often than win it)

Many times I've simply moved on to a different panel, and then the previous one makes sense, allowing me to tackle it again.

Also, when I draw big pages, it can be really daunting. And if I haven't gotten through it after a few tries, then I change tactics and draw the big page...inside a tiny panel. Doing this focuses my angles and perspectives into a tighter format, which really helps me out.

I know that advice is about drawing, but it also applies to storytelling as well. Like I said above, keep it on your terms, don't let your creations tell you what to do. Wrassle that control right back.

[aqua03]

Yeah, that's actually pretty good advice and something I should keep in mind. It's my story. I can tell it how I want to and my characters wouldn't exist without me around. So I should take control of it do what I want and need for it going forward. My health and happiness comes first.

(Yeah ,that break out of a rut thing might really help. Especially since i tend to follow a strict "format" with my writing to keep thing organized the best I can.)

[nathanKmcwilliams]

Yeah!
Obviously if working in a set pattern works for you most of the time, stick with it. But sometimes making little adjustments here and there is helpful to refocus and regain some mental energy.

[aqua03]

Definitely right there. I should be on the look out for that type of thing when I can to help break out of ruts. (Like that marker doodle I did of Flare a few days ago. That really helped.)

[DokiDokiTsuna]

I don't understand...what's sympathetic about either of these issues...?

Antagonists who do evil things for the sake of noble goals are dime-a-dozen (at the very least, they're not un-common); that doesn't automatically make them sympathetic characters; let alone too sympathetic.
And it sounds like you've already got Royal Crimson loaded down with activities that'll convince the reader that they're bad people...if anything, I'd worry about them being too unsympathetic, to the point that any sympathetic aspects of their characters will look artificial/contrived when compared with their actions...

And revealing that two races pitted against each other used to be one race is not a sympathy point either...in fact, it could be the opposite depending on how you play it. Like the Fire Nation in Avatar...they are the badguys for the entirety of the first series, and the fact they used to be in 'harmony' with the other nations but chose to attack and invade them only supports that characterization. It doesn't make them look better, it makes them look worse.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding the situation (it was a pretty dense post; I might have missed something) but this is the first time I'm thinking you may not actually have a problem at all here. =/ The only potential problem I see is that, if these things you've explained are supposed to elicit sympathy from the readers, I fear they're going to prove ineffective.

[aqua03]

Yeah, maybe I might be trying too hard to make them sympathetic and "redeemable". I guess part of me is worried about getting harassed for supposedly trying to redeem an "irredeemable" character like what happened with the author of MHA when he gave Endeavor a n arc to help develop him as a character and have him try to redeem himself after realizing how badly he screwed up in his pursuit of being "Number 1", so I kinda seem like I'm bending over backwards to go "No really, these guys wouldn't be doing this if circumstances were different! Please don't cancel me for it!" if that makes sense.

I know I was planning to reveal that the reason the Dredge turned on Dragons in the first place was a dark magic "Computer virus" of sorts that caused them to go evil, only once freed, they realized they were terrified of the possibility of another war, so they became hyper isolationist as a result and took drastic measures to keep the peace (like exiling anyone who didn't fit strict norms as mentioned previously), which led to this general vibe of them being viewed as still the horde of evil monsters by everyone else if that makes sense.

[nathanKmcwilliams]

I actually liked Endeavor's redemption arc xD didn't realize people hated it.

[aqua03]

I liked it, too. But Apparently a lot of people gave him grief for it thinking that Endeavor didn't deserve to get redeemed.

[indagold]

There's a difference between being sympathetic and outright saying your villain did nothing wrong and are sweet soft bois uwu. The latter is a generally terrible thing to do when writing and would be an actual problem.

[aqua03]

Yeah, I think that's kind of the problem. I feel I'm trying too hard to make them come off as likable towards the audience in that regard. Mostly because one of my writing pet peeves is the "It's okay, they said they're sorry. So it's all good now. uwu" redeemed villain trope in that regard, but it feels like ironically enough, I'm falling into that trap during all my times trying to avoid it specifically. (The whole "if you focus on not tripping on the pebble in the road while biking, then you're probably gonna hit the pebble in the road..." thing I guess.)

[TheDoublekey]

Yeah, you're right. In the end it all depends on how the villain is handled. If it's a well-written character per se, then there's no need to forcefully make it sympatethic. I tend to prefer villains who have motives and a clear goal in mind (and the ones you listed have one), not necessarily sympathetic, but I see your point.

[DiegoPalacios]

@nathanKmcwilliams @aqua03

The abuse Endeavor put in his family to reach the goal of being number one was pretty messed up......
(Also...the goal is really petty.)

He forced a woman to marry him because she had "the right genes" for his successor.....the circumstances were so bad she went insane. Also, the forced marriage meant forced sex, at least by cohersion, and it happened multiple times.

The other kids before Todoroki didn't have a happy childhood either. Actually Todoroki was not neccesarily "lucky" for having the optimal quirk combo.....while the harsh training made him strong it cost him a big deal of his childhood.

I think the arc rubbed many readers in the wrong way because Endeavor seems to have been easily forgiven by the author.

[DiegoPalacios]

Remember that some actions may be way too messed up to be forgiven just like that, even if the affected ones were not named characters. No matter how sympathetic is the character's backstory or how likable the character may seem.

[aqua03]

Yeah, that's exactly the thing i want to avoid... Just the "It's okay, they said they're sorry!" trope that shows up in a lot of anime and the like...

Though granted, I was planning on having only two or three members of Royal Crimson survive and the rest either dying from their own hubris or realizing the errors in their ways and dying trying to fix them, I guess I'm probably in the clear for that.

[aqua03]

You know... Maybe I should stop trying to paint both of the factions in Drachenseele as 100% "morally grey both sides are wrong" like I have been doing. That's not to say that I should go back to full saturday morning cartoon black and white no inbtweens whatsoever morality territory either, but I should hold the Dredge more accountable for the villainous actions they do and stop trying to paint it as "Yeah, but also the Tarako kingdom kinda sucks, too!" Because yeah, the Tarako Kingdom and the Dragoons do have major flaws, but it's still better than the Dredge kingdom and Royal Crimson from a moral standpoint by a long shot.

[nathanKmcwilliams]

I mean I get that. But to me it seemed like Endeavor wanted to change and try to atone. I'm not the biggest fan of his character, but I still enjoyed seeing his character develop a little.
Authors should be able to write what they want. The fans don't have to like it.

[aqua03]

Authors should be able to write what they want. The fans don't have to like it.

That's a pretty good way of thinking about things. Like, the writer shouldn't go out of their way to antagonize the fans or others or write something blatantly wrong or illegal or just ignore any and all forms of feedback, but at the end of the day, they're the ones in the Driver's Seat of the story, not the fans, and that's something everyone, both fan and creator alike, should realize.

[Prometheus]

I honestly just hate Endeavor. (Says the person who loves redemption in his stories, yet denies canon redemption for Endeavor and Bakugou.)