What do you think about thumbnails with "bl" label?

[Vikiro_Hop]

To be honest I avoid comics with the BL label mostly because I assume they are following a boring formula. I don't care what the nature of the relationships in the comics I read. If your main selling point is dudes being with dudes then I can't help but think there isn't a lot going on. That being said there are probably tons of great comics with that in their thumbnail I just really don't want to bother with them. If the relationships you write would cease being interesting if the genders were messed with then they are probably not well written.

[LordVincent]

It saddens me to see that this many associate the label with the comic following a boring formula, or assume it will be rapey wish-fulfillment. What saddens me more is that the people saying this do have a rational reason to do so: A lot of yaoi, shounen-ai and BL marked comics (both proffessionally published in japan and webcomic ones) work like this.

Here's an input coming from someone who tries to create something beyond just the above, but still puts the BL label in the thumbnail. For me, the BL label works partly as an advertiser, and partly as a warning. The later thing is neccessary, because this is not just the wishfulfillment of some 16 year old for me - it's the only way for me to express my sexuality and romanticism (if that is even a useable word for it) as a gay transguy who has to wait until AT LEAST late winter 2016 until I can get on hormones. It's important to me, and while I am very open about my sexuality and gender identity and proud of what I am, I just don't wanna deal with a big bunch of straight, closeminded men flushing to my comic and then getting disappointed and whining I should've put a warning on it. I have a follower on another site who categorizes all the female characters of my other comic by their boob size and makes rape jokes on my BL comic and I don't want any more of those kinda people. Putting "BL" in the thumbnail seems to help keep them the fuck outta my business. Although I might put "LGBTQIA" on Bloodroot's thumbnail someday instead, since it has lesbians as well and will have a transgender person... plus some stuff crossing gender lines.

I do have sexual content in my comic. It bothers me that people think that is fetishizing, because it's an opinion built upon the view society currently has on sex - something I want to work against. I don't think sex closes out the possibility of writing a good story. Boylove today, I feel, either shoves sex into the closet like it's a bad ugly sheep, or it fetishizes it to no end and the characters aren't given a chance to become proper... well. Characters!
I want to contribute to a sex positive society, that understands the importance of CONSENT. Is that really so bad?

I also use the label because I am more likely to read BL comics myself. I'm also fairly likely to just stop reading after like 5 pages due to shitty art or shitty writing (although sometimes I keep reading because it falls into the so bad it's funny category). I occasionally read hetero comics or lesbian ones as well (the latter one is far too rare! We need more cute lesbians!) but for the former I really need to be in a good mood and it needs to be very comedic... Otherwise I just can't deal, cause it reminds me of when I was struggling so hard to be a hetero girl myself. Various people have various reasons for looking for one type of romance rather than the other, and I want to make it easier for people who prefer or are willing to read BL to find my comic.

[WednesdayAsh]

What you are describing is the struggle between "genre" and "literary" works. The difference between something like Timur Bekmambetov's "Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter" (Genre) and Steven Spielberg's "Lincoln" (Literary).

While one work tries to tap into the essence of existence of its current zeitgeist, all literary works intentionally or unintentionally do, the other provides a baser need for specific thrills by managing expectations by establishing its genre and appealing to the fans of that genre.

When you put "BL" on your thumbnail, you cap your audience to people who understand what usually goes on in such things, irrespective of how good or how bad you write the work. For example, I will almost certainly never read your work, based on what I know other "BL" comics have shown me, its just not my speed.

But it does guarentee you an audience that's already knee deep in BL anyway.

If you really want to write something great and trancends your genre: keep your content, write what you feel, draw what you yearn to express, don't cap your audience, with an obvious label.

Can you imagine if Abdellatif Kechiche's "Blue is the Warmest Color" had the filmic equivalent of the "YURI" label?

It'd just be bad porn.

[LordVincent]

In the official trailer for Blue is the Warmest Colour, the couple kiss multiple times and are even lying naked on top of each other. Your point was what again?

I also have several people who usually don't like yaoi/bl, who do read my comic. The ones I DON'T get are people who don't want gay love in the stuff they read at all, or are too stubborn to give something a 5 second try - that and homophobes. I'll gladly do without these people, honestly xD

It doesn't become bad porn because of how it's advertised, it becomes bad porn because of the content. Blue is the Warmest Colour is NOT bad porn from what I've heard, it's an artistic piece... due to, not the damned trailer, but due to character development. The trailer does not attract just any audience, it attracts an audience that is interested in seeing this type of love unfold and hearing their story. That doesn't make the content any less meaningful.

[WednesdayAsh]

That doesn't make the content any less meaningful.

You missed my point. If "Blue" was a webcomic, would you put the "GL" tag on it? if there was such a convention? If you put "GL" on it, the sex becomes this point, but it shouldnt be the characters are.

The trailer doesn't warn you, its "GL", the point being, it's not afraid to depict reality without labeling (apoligizing) it before hand, it's presenting it self as a sex-positive work, without the sex being the point, the sex comments on the context, where if you lets say put a "GL" type logo in the front, or the sex becomes the point.

I actually saw the film, btw, its great, you should see it.

the film almost confronts haters: "Deal with it."

rather than apoligizing, advertising, warning its viewers of its sex content.

cause then the sex becomes the point, its porn now.

---

Edit: I see your point now, you think the trailer is the equivalent of a BL label, in the thumbnail...it's not tho, in my eyes at least writers are using BL as either underestimating their own ability to reach an audience with the BL content without the "BL" label, or, putting it cause they wanna make the best "BL" ever made. But you aren't going to trancend that BL ghetto, by branding yourself before hand.

And you have to deal with idiots, if you wanna change minds other than your targeted niche.

[LordVincent]

I have considered seeing the movie. I probably should, but I just watch movies all too rarely... they can rarely be properly understood by just being listened to, and since I am constantly drawing that is how I enjoy all my entertainment.

Well, there is that (referring to your edit now) and then there's the fact that I saw complaints in this thread about bl thumbnails having guys cuddling or kissing. To me THAT part of the whole discussion looks more like someone just wants gay people to shut up and put their sexuality back in the closet where noone has to see it really. News flash: STRAIGHT LOVE COMICS DO THIS TOO. The thumbnails are all people kissing, cuddling or being cute together. As well as lesbian ones. How DARE people put the subject matter into the actual thumbnail! I should just go put a bee in mine. Very telling.

[Alli]

I don't tend to read stuff with the BL label, but it's not quite for the reasons one might expect.

When I was in middle school and high school I had a lot of friends that were really into shounen ai and yaoi. I borrowed some of their books but I honestly never really understood the hype. I have absolutely no problem with boys making out with boys. It can be hot. The books they fawned over just made no sense to me. It was mostly fanservice with cookie-cutter characters. One boy is the petite and girly bottom while the other is the (kinda rapey) top. They never switch. Often times the stories made me uncomfortable because the bottom boy seemed unwilling, but somehow because they were both boys that was ok? It's not. That's not a fair representation of a gay couple. That's a rapey guy on a person that might as well be a girl. If the top isn't rapey he's at the very least a downright ass. I like to see romance, crushes, broken hearts, and cuddling. I don't want to see one main character treat the other badly and only get more attention for it. When I see the BL label, I tend to assume that the creator is heavily influenced by shonen ai and yaoi manga and will create a story similar to the ones I read back then.

To be completely fair, shoujo manga is also heavily guilty of glorifying jerkhole boys. Oh, he's edgy and has a dark past but goes to high school in a first world country. Yeah, I bet his past is so dark.

I am, however, subscribed to Lex Normaux. Seb and Elia are just the cutest little creampuffs.

[joannekwan]

You summed up the top offending trope in BL (and shojo romance) @lunox99! This is exactly what I'm tired of and is so harmful to the gay community.

I'll admit, nowadays I'll click on anything labeled BL just to see how bad it is. Haven't seen anything truly rotten on Tap at least. But I have noticed a lot of cutesy sugary stuff that'll give you diabetes. Gay, straight, lesbian, or whatever, I personally am lost on all that affectionate fluff. I've never been one for uber-romantic "kawaii" relationships. lol

[TsarLenaSunLit]

I have clicked off some comics that put up BL on the thumbnail. To me its a "HEY! Look at me!" flag that I find annoying. I have read some BL comics that didn't do that, I am not usually a fan of BL but if the story is good and the characters interesting I keep reading.

Another thing I find interesting is after all these BL thumbnails popped up. I have not seen one GL pop up in response. Not that they have to now, just making a note of it.

[TsarLenaSunLit]

I have seen a few comics put a warning at the beginning that there is blood and gore in it or if there are tiggers. If people are doing the BL as a warning why not put it at the top of the first page saying that the follow content is male/male?

[Caelestie]

I would agree with you completely! eh I hate Romanization of rape.

[Caelestie]

Artist freedom is like freedom of speech, it doesn't mean you can actually say everything especially if it is defamation of character or misinformation. It is disgusting when pull that card when they know they are doing something wrong!

[Caelestie]

ehhh I have you seen the author trash this film because it was so male gazy. The film was based on a graphic novel by a lesbian and the straight male director decided to make like a 10 minute long sex scene that made most lesbian be either baffled or uneasy. It was mostly guys that liked that scene.
Also the actresses that did the scene were not treated well in that scene.

[WednesdayAsh]

well i thought it was thought provoking, i can only speak to what I thought about it tho.

[camillabluejay]

That's always the way I've kinda seen them as too @Savannah. I think not only do they manage to find the audience they're looking for right away, but it keeps the people who wouldn't be interested from wasting their time as well. So, while I find it a little frustrating that they gain a large audience very quickly from people willing to read anything with BL on the title, I don't necessarily blame them. My own comic will have strong lgbtqa themes, and I kinda wish there was an easier way to find my audience just like that. But, because it's not romance, there's not point labeling it with BL- I'd just bug both sides haha.

[Caelestie]

hmmmmm well a lot people would disagree with you and I usually dislike when straight men fetishize lesbian and bi women. It isn't a great thing to do.

[LordVincent]

I can't stand yaoi/shounen ai that works like that... Makes it difficult to find good stuff to read, when the gay side of the whole manga industry is FULL of that shit.

I don't want to see one more fucking yaoi try to play rape off as something romantic a la "I rape you because I love you". No. You rape him because you're a sick piece of shit, mr seme-guy-thing.

[LordVincent]

There is one comic... called What-Sexual. They mark their comic with lgbtq. It's not the first time I see it... It doesn't have the type of marketing effect that BL probably has, but what does that matter really? It will definitely catch an eye for lgbtq people looking to read about things they can recognize and sympathize with on another level.

What-Sexual might actually be one of very few comics I read ONLY for the story actually, and I would never have looked at it weren't it for the lgbtq label. Usually the thing that catches my eye is the artstyle of something, and the artstyle of this one isn't really my thing. But the story is really interesting.

So yeah, you could totally put that on your thumbnail if you want to add an extra hint of what the story contains. There is only so much you can tell people with a thumbnail... Considering changing my "BL" one for an "LGBTQIA+" one myself.

[WednesdayAsh]

Oh no, i didn't mean the fetishization XD yea that's sucky. But that's my personal opinion, and I'm not afraid of going against "a lot of people".

Nor will I go to bat for "Blue" haha, it was an example of a sex-positive, sex-intensive work that's supposedly literary, and supposedly not porn.

Your view, a valid one, is infact similar to the BL discussion this topic is having right now. "Lots of people" think BL is a porn-like ghetto, while "a lot of people" would argue the genre tag shouldn't matter as a description of literary quality.

And I tend to be a seperate art from the creation and creator type person.

Did you know David Bowie was a child rapist? He also inspired an undeniable amount of science fiction and video games.

Can someone be terrible as a person in the past (or present), and inspiring as an artist? Bowie implies yes.

Should we muddle the discussion of artistic merit with moral bankruptcy, I think no.

In this case we're purely discussion the BL label, which lead to a discussion of the legitimacy of the Palme D'Or winning "Blue is the Warmest Color" example. A film that led to my appreciation of the nuances of the LGBTQ world, and led me to a more tolerant and appreciative worldview.

All of the above muddles the discussion of BL labels on Tapastic.

But again feel free to disagree tho.

[camillabluejay]

      Oh, I'll have to read that one too! Thanks for pointing it out, I'll look it up :D As for my own comic, I feel like I might still have the same problem? I'd wanted to make a comic that had lgtbqa+ characters, but I didn't want the story to be about that. I wanted a story about other things, that happened to have lgbtqa+ characters and themes. So I'm afraid that if I mark it as such, I might annoy people looking for a story ABOUT that. I'm afraid they might be like, "What the hell? It's been 20 pages, and no one's even identified themselves yet." And I'd be like, "Yeah, that's because people are trying to kill them. They're busy."
       I do have story arcs, about one of the boys and his problematic ex-boyfriend, about a boy being asexual but NOT aromantic and the trouble that causes, and a boy trying to deal with being straight in a world where there aren't alot of women. But those don't come til later, and they're in between the action and magic.
      I'd read online that people were tired of everyone making a big deal about lgbtqa+ characters in stories, and just wanted a 'normal' story that had lgtbqa+ characters in it. And I was excited, because that's what my story was, but then I don't know how to market it, haha. But at the same time, I don't want some jerk stumbling into it by accident and going, "Ew, your main character is Bi? GROSS." >: [ 
So, yeah, I feel like I'm kinda trapped in the middle! XD