What Makes You Subscribe and Unsubscribe?

eagle1 2015-05-15 16:36:32 UTC #52

Unfortunatly, I am caught in a dilemma there. See, my nature is to tell the person why I am unsubscribing, but I also do not want to give unsolicited critiques, as that can be harmful. By that token, you have pointed out that unsubbing without telling them why can have the same effect, therefor I have resolved to only do subscriptions on Comic Rocket where people can't tell who I have unsubbed. I will be informing everyone I am subbed to on this and several other services that I am switching all my subs to Comic Rocket, and that will be the end of that.

I'm finding my audience. I write for me, but in writing what I want to read, I know I am also writing what others want to read. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I want fans. I want people who like the story enough to keep coming back, and to get invested in the characters, and the world, and when the second NO-Earth title starts up in a couple of months, to be ready for that. The subs are one gauge, but I don't put a lot of stock in them. I have pageviews, likes, subs, session counts, pages per session, comments, and so on. Over half my hits on my main site have no referrers, which means they either typed the site name in, or had it bookmarked. There is a list of things that I use to gauge how people are liking the series and the site, even those that never sub, comment, or like.

My advice is stop placing so much importance on subscribers. I can't remember ever having judged a comic on the number of subscribers. I am on another forum where some of them judge the comic based on the updates to subscribers ratio. If the two numbers are close, they figure it's a good comic. Sillyness. The best way to judge a good or bad comic is to read it (or attempt to).

And by the way, I only have 7 subscribers over here. And I only have 1 comment every other update. I think I qualify as an underdog here.

Eagle
(I have a niche comic. Not going to be to a lot of people's taste)

hades 2015-05-15 17:10:22 UTC #53

You seem to think my subscribers magically appeared once I started my comic and that I didn't work to get where I am. That I've had no experience as an underdog on tapastic or elsewhere. That I haven't gone through YEARS of being a 'nobody' and learned to value every commenter, reader, and subscriber? Do you TRULY believe that just because I have a high number I sit on some high horse and undervalue my readers?

You ask if I'd trade over to having not that high of a count. YES. I FUCKING WOULD. Because why? BECAUSE THEY'D BE GENUINE READERS THAT CARE ABOUT MY FUCKING CONTENT. You know, what I brought up earlier.

To base yourself on numbers vs genuine readers is complete boulder-dash. It is a false sense of elitism and popularity and what HURTS the community more then aides it.

I apologize for my harsh words and long rant but to tell me I have not stood in the shoes of an underdog without knowing me as a person or my own life story is a bunch of grade A bullshit.

keii4ii 2015-05-15 17:15:19 UTC #54

That's a huge assumption to make, and honestly rather accusatory. @Marchen didn't get those subscribers overnight. She started from 0 like everyone else (except those who brought pre-existing fanbase from other sites, I guess). Just because she has over a thousand subscriber now doesn't mean she doesn't know what it's like to have only a few subscribers.

The value of a single subscriber is not dependent on how many subscribers you have in total. Whether you have 1 or 10k, it all depends on your outlook. Some people have a "subs are just numbers" attitude even when they're starting out, while toward the other end of the spectrum, I personally know creators who hover over the sub count to see the exact number and jump in joy every time they gain one. Don't make these assumptions about your fellow creators just because they seem like big fish to you.

Besides, 99.9% of us are underdogs in the grand scheme of things. That includes myself, and I have over 3k subscribers. I'm a nobody. Just another creatively insane person making a comic because they're driven to, even though it's actively hurting their financial situation (yes, I get teeny bit of pocket change from ad revenue, but it's not enough to pay ANY of my numerous bills).

And to answer your question even though it wasn't directed at me -- yes, I would rather lose all of my subscribers if they were just staying subbed out of pity and weren't enjoying the comic at all. Between five genuine fans and 50,000 people who only PRETEND to like my work, I would choose the former in a heartbeat, especially with a comic that I'm this passionate about.

dlalas1 2015-05-15 18:05:32 UTC #55

I don't think your subscribers "magically appeared", but the fact is that they are there now. You have 1800 subscribers. I didn't say you undervalue them, I'm saying that people who have far fewer subscribers see more of a difference when people sub or unsub. It's all relative, mathematically speaking.

I'm glad that you've achieved success. I hope you understand that not everyone does. I think you are very talented and you deserve it, but some people just get lucky and do get successful overnight. I've been doing webcomics for 10 years and for 9.5 of those years I got no views on my site, no comments, no attention at all from anyone, even my friends and family. I worked hard and saw absolutely zero results. I joined Tapastic this January and gradually started seeing results. They weren't huge, but it finally felt like after nearly a decade I was getting noticed. I'd finally found a community where people appreciated me. Every single subscriber and comment and like make up for the years of being ignored. And so seeing my subscribers go down kind of sucks, especially if I've gone and commented and liked their comic in return.

I suppose that's where we diverge. If I was still sitting at 4 subscribers at this point, with one comment every week (even if it was coming from a genuine place), I wouldn't be able to go on. After so many years I'd feel like all the work I put into my comic wouldn't be worth it.

muhdreams 2015-05-15 18:28:48 UTC #56

Lets see: one of the reasons I started with my comics was to eventually get better with drawing as a whole, so anything that has really good art I'll subscribe to, to kinda use as references I guess. That and anything that I feel has a similar sense of humor to my comics I usually subscribe too.

As for unsubscribing, I've only unsubscribed once, but it was cause I was too much of a fan of the story, despite with its really good artstyle. I don't like unsubbing cause I feel bad I guess, so I usually try to sub to ones I know I'll stick around for a really long time I guess.

dlalas1 2015-05-15 18:47:17 UTC #57

I don't think 99% of us are underdogs. In fact there are a bunch of big box comics that were incredibly successful (even financially) before they came on Tapastic and continue to dominate the field now, just because success breeds success. And their high sub counts get them seen by more people. Some of those people will sub just because whatever, while some will be genuine fans who wouldn't have seen the comic if it didn't have a large amount of subs. That's a fact. There are probably people out there who would love my comic, but can't find it because I don't have enough subscribers to stand out. So the number does matter, because it puts you out in front of potential genuine fans. Less popular comics need those "pity" subs to be seen by real subs.

I sometimes get messages from people saying "Your comic relates to me so much". But they've only seen it because they found it through another subscriber's activity feed. If I only had 4 subs, it wouldn't matter how active and genuine they were with their comments, my comic wouldn't reach people who would otherwise like my comic. And that's why I appreciate each and every person who likes/comments on my comics, and do so in return. If they have a comic you'd better believe that I will at the VERY least like each issue to help them out like they did me.

However I realize that at a certain point that becomes unmanageable (like if you have 3000 subs) and that's what I was saying. Unless you have a lot of time, you won't be able to get to every one of your subs' comics.

BUT to bring it back to my original point, and the topic of this thread-- I feel you should still support those who support you by not unsubscribing, because that hurts the creator, making them less visible. All I'm saying is that even if I ever got to over 1000 subscriptions, I would not unsub from anyone, and I would try my best to comment and like everyone who did that for me.

eagle1 2015-05-15 18:49:11 UTC #58

This. Nothing else, but this!

Eagle
(As I said, I want FANS, not numbers)

noxfox 2015-05-15 18:54:41 UTC #59

I don't really get why you are so upset about this. To me it looks a bit like, if someone were to talk to you while waiting the bus, or because they bumped into you in the street, you'd then --when they try to get back on their way-- yell at them "Where are you going!? We must be friends forever now!"

It's just my personal opinion but I tend to think that people who'd bother to stalk me to tell me why they'd be unsubscribing from my series might be people who feel kind of entitled. Even if knowing the reason might possibly be interesting, I am not much interested in knowing it as a creator, because I just go with the idea that I can't please everybody, and that there will always be people who thought they may like the story and finally turned out not liking it that much. Whatever is their reason, it's probably good to them, and there is probably nothing I could be willing to do that would make them like it, so that's why I don't care about their reasons. I have my way and I'm not going to stray from it because of one person.

keii4ii 2015-05-15 19:16:45 UTC #60

I think most of us would find that difficult. I know I would (or at least did), because I've been there with my previous comic. The difference is that some people, like @marchen and myself, would be even more devastated by fake subscribers than by having only a few subscribers for a long time. I would rather be told that I look ugly than be told a sugary lie. Does that mean I WANT to be told I look ugly? No, it just means I really, really, really don't want to be lied to, even if the person has good intentions.

I'm not denying those people exist. But they're less than 1% of the entirety of the webcomic creator population.

If your main goal is to support less popular comics, wouldn't it be better to actively promote them by giving shout outs?

The way I see it, yes, less popular comics could really use more exposure, but I would rather give my two cents of exposure to comics that I genuinely love -- regardless of popularity. If I don't personally enjoy a comic, I'm not going to help them out. Why? Because if I help everyone, that would simply lead to subscriber inflation, and inflation never helps anyone.

That's my stance, and I respect your right to disagree. I really think you could have presented this argument without passing judgement on people who disagree with you on this, though. Calling it rotten is going too far. Subscribing is a site feature that different users use in different ways. Just because someone unsubs from a comic, doesn't mean they want that comic to die in obscurity. You have to respect that, the same way I have to respect just because someone remains subbed to my comic without actually enjoying it, doesn't mean they're trolling me.

Self promotion has become a requirement for the vast majority of us.

dlalas1 2015-05-15 19:32:07 UTC #61

It's more along the lines of someone talks to me at the bus stop, then they say "Hey, you seem like a cool person, let's trade numbers and hang out sometime!" and then they leave. Then when I text them to say "Hey, when are we hanging out?" they reply "who is this? I deleted this number from my phone." and then they never talk to you again. I wouldn't be upset about this if I'd initiated the conversation, but if as per your analogy they were the ones who started talking to me at the bus stop and then they offered to exchange numbers and then didn't follow through, then I'd be upset. My hopes of a new friend would be quashed.

I don't care if people read my comic and say "PASS!". But when they sub, then I sub to their comic, then they unsub, that's not cool because it feels like they were just trying to get subscribers themselves.

As to your second point, I personally would like to know why people are unsubscribing. Maybe it's something I can change. Maybe it isn't. But I want to make my comic to please as many people as possible, otherwise I wouldn't put it on the internet. I'd keep it on my computer and look at it myself. If someone leaves and says "this story isn't making sense anymore..." then I know I have to fix that story. Who knows, maybe more people feel that way but don't want to speak up.

Kura 2015-05-15 19:58:26 UTC #62

We're subbing to a comic not getting married to it... this is a reader base we are talking about not a committed relationship.

On inkblazers I would very often follow series for other artists, just for the sake of following and getting other authors numbers higher to give them a confidence boost. (I was one of the top featured artists, people would link me / ask me to read their comics all the time) It never helped them, and despite my good intentions never turned into anything good. The authors would just get even more upset when their readers went but actual views didn't go up (It was the views that put your rankings up and got you more noticed on that site, not the subscribers), and call me a fake fan just wanting to get a view back for my own comic (which I didn't, because as I said before fan backs didn't help me, actual READERS was what you needed on the site, I genuinely just wanted to help, but I'm only gonna read their comic once, and most of the time to me it wasn't that good, sometimes the comic was horrid, but I figure if you're going to start you have to start somewhere, I'm not gonna continue reading if I didn't enjoy it thus far, and that there is where the problem lay) or they would get extremely egotistical and ugly, and their stuff would not improve and would gradually get worse. I was not another artist trying to help out another artist, I was a stepping stone that they were clearly better than, as me 'liking their comic when they didn't like mine' was prof enough that they were superior to one of the top featured series on that site.

Fans that are not fans becoming a 'fan' doesn't help the artist. It never did.

Anywho I posted my reasons for unsubscribing already, BUT even though I have reasons I actually very rarely unsubscribe from comics. Probably only been about 10 comics I've unsubscribed from throughout the many years I've been reading webcomics online, and that's rounding up.

dlalas1 2015-05-15 20:10:18 UTC #63

It doesn't really work, though. In this day and age where ads are everywhere and everyone is pushing to get their content seen, self-promotion is getting less and less useful. Audiences don't like content pushed on them, they want it to pull them in. Content spreads organically (or virally). Think of how many TV shows both good and bad fail despite nonstop commercials. Now think how many succeed, good or bad, simply because of word-of-mouth. People talk about them. Applying that to Tapastic, people see more subscribers and want to be part of that particular party. People see less subscribers and...well, they don't see them.

I guess we fundamentally disagree on the unsub issue. I don't think anyone should unsub, but that's my personal view. I just don't like people who blatantly self-promote by subbing just to get their comic seen by you, then unsubbing once they've got you subbed. It's just like Twitter all over again.

SpavVy 2015-05-15 20:23:33 UTC #64

What gets me to subscribe is a good story and art especially if the series is like mine in any kind of way or has similar things in it, for example The Martyr's Rebellion is about Heaven Hell and Purgatory like my story so it's fun for me to read stories that have similarities to mine xD

What makes me unsubscribe isn't the lack of updates, I'm slow when it comes to updating so I get it but when one NEVER updates and keeps uploading a new series that's only available for supporters and delete one that I was getting into to "revamp it" then yeah I will unsubscribe because I'm sick of dealing with that crap. And yes that has actually happened.

eagle1 2015-05-15 20:56:20 UTC #65

Oh my...Um...Check this. I opened my site on march 6th. 10 weeks ago. Bear that in mind throughout this little post. 10 weeks. No pre-existing fan base. What have I got now? I've got my main site with all of my work on it, and three mirror sites with The Shadow War on them.
The main site gets most of the hits. 2800+ a month, with about 300 uniques a month. Over half of those have the site bookmarked. Two of the mirror sites do subs, and I have 13 between the two of them, with another 500 page views for the last 30 days. That's over 3000 page views for the last 30 days. Not stellar numbers, but worthwhile to me. Especially for 10 weeks.

And I did it with self promotion without getting in people's face about it. For the most part, I simply post in forums. I have fun, and enjoy myself talking to other people about one of my favourite topics, comics. I have a passion for it, and it tends to show. So yeah, self-promotion works without subscribers. I gots none of one, and lots of the other. It works out.

Does anyone know what role Subs play in the front page listings around here? Is that the sole criteria for the 'popular' list?

Eagle
(Inquiring minds want to know)

elixiadragmire 2015-05-15 20:58:21 UTC #66

I really don't think people subbing for self promotion ..... This is a weird concept to me

keii4ii 2015-05-15 21:17:00 UTC #67

That would certainly be a dick move. But like @elixiadragmire, this is a foreign concept to me. I honestly don't want anyone to sub to my comic just because I subbed to theirs, nor would I ever sub to someone else's comic hoping to get them to sub to mine. I'm a VERY "only sub to my comic if you actually read it/enjoy it" person.

When I lose a subscriber, my default assumption is that the comic turned out to be different from what they wanted. Which is fine by me. I'd prefer if they'd tell me why, in case I can use that knowledge to improve my work, but I understand most people are afraid of saying anything negative... I wouldn't assume they had any ulterior motivations for subbing??

dlalas1 2015-05-15 21:29:17 UTC #68

It's a mentality that I first noticed on Twitter, done mostly by bands/music acts there. They follow you to get "seen", in the hopes that you will follow back. Then they unfollow you whether or not you follow back. It's a sneaky way of self-promotion that has unfortunately sprung up here on Tapastic as well, hence my grumpy initial post.

dlalas1 2015-05-15 21:39:01 UTC #69

I consider that "organic" spread. You're making subtle connections.

My definition of self-promotion is advertising, posting on social media saying "hey look update, come see my site", and posting in forums with the sole intent of getting people to see your site.

And I mean, good for you, congrats! But that's just an anecdote. I can just as easily tell you that I've done forum posting + advertising + social media for years and years (as posted above) to no result. Results with self-promotion will vary, no matter how much work you put into it. However my point about word-of-mouth is a culturally proven fact that has been observed and employed by entertainment corporations (viral marketing, etc).

sundanceann 2015-05-15 21:40:33 UTC #70

I can honestly say, every sub I have in my reading list (about 80) is something I look forward to reading. I don't subscribe out of obligation or self-promotion. As a creator, I want to believe that my ~40 readers honestly enjoy my work. If someone unsubscribes, I hope they find other works on tapastic that suit their tastes better.

Well said. If someone if counting subs, they're treating readers as numbers, not as people.

Another great line from this debate. I totally agree (and I laughed when I read this).

I'm pretty new, so I haven't seen this on this site, but I have seen it on Twitter and dA (a lot), and I'm sure there are people on this site who do that. Most large internet communities have those people. ...But I'd guess, Tapastic has a smaller percent of those people than most other sites. Theoretically they're here, but obviously, they don't have that big of a presence for most of us to notice them.

Agreed. (x 1000)

eagle1 2015-05-15 22:02:52 UTC #71

I tried a little of that when I first got started. I didn't like it. It felt wrong. Plus, I can tell what thread you click on to get to my site from those forums, and it wasn't generating many hits, so I pretty much stopped.
And you're right, what I presented was anecdotal evidence, but you had made a sweeping generalisation, so anecdotal evidence is acceptable for the refutation. And it's all self-promotion. While my main purpose in these forums is to have fun, and talk about the things I enjoy (and NOT ink that page on my drawing board), at the base of it is still the motivation (one of many) of self-promotion. But for the most part, I am not out here to beg for subscriptions, views, or comments. Those will come from fans. People who enjoy what I am doing, and want to see more of it.

I've been kinda scratching my head at one thing on this thread. People say they unsubscribe if the creator is a jerk. I had to realise that I am buying comics, not subscribing, but laying out hard-earned money for comics written or drawn by jerks, and don't have a problem with that. Only if they do something dishonest or unethical do I stop buying or reading. I gotta think about that one. I guess I am used to certain creators being jerks, having spent so long dealing with Conventions.

Eagle
(And with some of my life experiences, I am used to jerks)