What Makes You Subscribe and Unsubscribe?

dlalas1 2015-05-15 00:40:30 UTC #41

If someone subscribes to me and they have a comic, I sub back. It's just common courtesy and I don't get why more people don't do that. Like, if someone is taking the time to support you, you should do the same back.

I don't ever unsubscribe because that's just rotten. We all know that people look at the sub count to judge a comic's worth (higher # = more popular = quality comic I should be paying attention to), and that number should be going up with time rather than down. Taking away your subscription, even if you aren't actively reading it, is demoralizing and chips away at the artist's self-esteem. Every artist I've seen on Tapastic works hard to deliver a product and if you sub you should stay subbed.

eagle1 2015-05-15 02:42:04 UTC #42

@dlalas1, Um...Look, I understand your desire to be nice, but you are saying stay subbed even if you are no longer supporting the comic by reading it or commenting on it. I'm not trying to be offensive, but that's inherently dishonest, and I just can't do that. If I am no longer reading a title, it's coming off my list. It might not even be that the book is bad, just that it's not something that appeals to me. Like anyone else, the art is one of the things that can pull me in, and after giving a new series a try, I might discover that it has nothing for me. Not a bad book, just not my taste. There are books on here that have multiple thousands of people subscribed. So they should be subscribed to that many titles?

And if a title is not entertaining me, I am not going to stay subscribed just to avoid hurting someone's feelings, and that does not make me 'just rotten'. And for the record, I have already learned that most popular and quality comic have nothing to do with each other. Comics become popular for a number of reasons, and quality is not always one of them.

I also don't expect someone to comment on my comic if I commented on theirs, like mine if I liked theirs, or link to mine if I linked to theirs. I do not expect them to enjoy what I write just because I enjoy what they write. And I don't want someone to sub to mine just because I subbed to theirs. I don't want them feeling that obligation.

Eagle
(Gonna get jumped on for this one)

sundanceann 2015-05-15 02:59:19 UTC #43

@eagle1 Agreed! I think it's better to unsubscribe when I stop reading. It's a way of giving feedback to the creator that they're losing the interest of the audience.

As a creator, I want to know if I'm losing the interest of my readers even if that means some people unsubscribing.

keii4ii 2015-05-15 02:59:29 UTC #44

@eagle1, for once we see eye to eye. XD I personally don't want anyone to sub (or stay subbed) to my comic without enjoying the read, and same with comics that I sub (or don't sub): if I don't read it, I'm not subbed to it.

I wouldn't call people dishonest just because they choose to stay subbed, though. For people like you and me, subbing says "I'm reading this comic." For people like @dlalas1, subbing says "keep it up." I don't agree with that definition, and I hope all of my subscribers are actually enjoying my comic, but I don't see it as an outright lie, not even a white one.

It's like a cultural difference. Like how nodding at a Japanese business meeting doesn't actually mean they agree... (I'm Korean, and had to provide interpretation service for family friends quite a few times. I KEPT TELLING THEM NOT TO NOD because they'd keep nodding even when they didn't understand a word the other party was saying...!!!!)

eagle1 2015-05-15 04:27:19 UTC #45

@sundanceann, and see here, I have a problem. I, as a creator, also want to know if someone doesn't like my work, and why. But my personal philosophy is also do no harm, so I never slam or flame someone, and an unsolicited review or critique of someone's work would be that. So on one hand I want anyone who stops reading my titles to tell me why, but I don't want to hurt someone by telling them why unless that something they have asked for.
Regardless of how blunt I am, personal harm for my words is a line that I will not cross for anything, but I wish there was a way of knowing who wants the feedback, even if it's negative.
The other thing is if the title is just not clicking for me, that does not mean it's a bad title, or even that I have anything bad to say about it. It's just not to my taste.
Of course, most of the ones I unsubscribe from were just worse than I could take.

@keii4ii, I should rephrase. For me, it would be dishonest. I have an overdeveloped sense of integrity (a fault and a virtue), and that would be dishonest for me.
I want fans. There, I said it. I want fans! Not subscribers, not people being nice. I want to put out something that people enjoy as much as I enjoy works by other people. I'm a huge Roland Mann fan, and most people have never even heard of him, but I fell in love with his Cat and Mouse and have generally read everything he produced since then, even getting to spend a number of hours shooting the breeze at a Con I was running. He's a good guy, and fun to hang with, but I was a rabid fan long before then. There may not be more than 1000 fans of his in the whole country, but I love his stuff.

I want that. I don't want the fame, the money, or the big contracts. I want fans who feel as passionately about my creations as I do. And to me, subbing says "I'm reading this. I'm a fan." Maybe not a rapid fan, but at least enough to want to hit that button and keep up with this person's work.

And you're right, that is a cultural difference, but that's my views on subbing, and I don't ever want it to be about obligation. I have enough obligation in my life.

Eagle
(Boy, that was deeper than I intended)

dlalas1 2015-05-15 04:47:22 UTC #46

Speaking personally, I try to support all the comics I'm subbed to by reading and commenting regularly.

But I understand that not everyone wants to do that anymore if they lose interest in the comic. However what harm is it to stay subscribed? You're not paying to see the comics, but you're still helping out that creator by being part of that base.

Popular and quality may not have anything to do with each other, but many readers do perceive it that way, and that creates a snowball effect. Some people actually do see "high number of subs" as an indicator of quality and subscribe to it regardless. Call it the Kardashian effect.

Recently I've had a spate of quick subs/unsubs (3 in the past day!!), which don't even make sense to me. If you don't like my comic, cool! Go read something you do like! Or read mine but don't sub, that's cool too. Why subscribe, then leave a day later? Anyone can read most Tapastic comments without subscribing, so why sub when you don't have the intention of supporting me?

I dunno, I guess I'm different because I DO think I'm obligated to return the favour to other creators if they interact with me. If someone takes the time to give me a Like and a comment, I'll do the same for them. That's what makes a community. I don't think people who unsub are rotten, but I do think that action is. It makes people feel like their work is disposable, like they've done something "wrong" with their comic. It hurts their feelings, which I personally can't do.

I guess my point is, if you don't like the comic, don't sub in the first place! It's simple.

eagle1 2015-05-15 05:10:32 UTC #47

Many reasons for unsubbing, just coming from my point of view.

The art drew me in, but I didn't have a feel for the story until more pages were posted.

The concept rocked, so I subbed, then found out that not only did the writer not have the concept down, but the comic was not even the concept advertised.

I actually liked the comic, but the creator wound up doing something that I found dishonourable and unethical.

I was enjoying the comic, but the creator started shilling hard, and berating people for not clicking on the ads. Seems click-throughs drive up the amount you can get from Google.

The writer did enough cliches in a row that I just could not take it anymore.

All of those are reasons I have unsubbed. I don't usually get that specific, but those are all general enough that I feel safe posting them. If I sub to your comic, you are under no obligation to sub to mine. Mine is an alternate history super-powered industrial espionage tale. That is such a niche market that I figure it will be a year before I get 500 fans. If you draw stick figure gaming commentary, and I subscribe because I like your sense of timing and snark, I'm not expecting you to even look at my comic, unless you're that odd person wondering where this story has been all of your life. It's just not reasonable.
However, that is your position, and it's not harming anyone, so go for it.

Now, anyone that I notice in the forums, and that includes people I interact with, I go check out their comic so there's that sense of community. Of course, these days, you are not even going to notice if I subscribe or unsubscribe, since I do all of that on Comic Rocket. Easier and more convenient.

Eagle
(And please, if someone unsubs me, please tell me why, I need the feedback)

darlingGrim 2015-05-15 05:51:40 UTC #48

I normally subscribe for art and story. However I actually have a wide variety of reasons to sub, there is no catch all. While I prefer shonen action manga (as a general go to) I notice I love stories with unique characters and art (my favorites on here aren't even manga style SHOCK).

I usually do not to like military/modern stories. Mostly because I really dislike men with stubble and masculine men in general. Nothing wrong with those types of stories just not my style. Also, when I was younger I was really into BL but now I try to avoid any BL and het romance stories (as a lot of them demonize female characters just to have a villain (I've outgrown my girl hate phase).

I haven't unsubscribed yet, but I imagine I might if they got too heavy handed with fanservice I'd jump ship.
As a rule though if someone subscribes to my comic I do go and check out theirs (I don't always follow though only if I like the story/art.)

hades 2015-05-15 07:01:05 UTC #49

To be honest,
I rather have low numbers if it means I have genuine readers. To have 'fake' readers for the sake of high numbers is horrifying to me as a creator. It means people watch out of pity but don't actually care for my content.

I understand where you are coming from and that you wish for a community that supports each other and itself. But I don't agree with this idea.

dlalas1 2015-05-15 15:56:28 UTC #50

See, I've never encountered an artist doing something unethical/dishonourable so that situation is completely foreign to me. I suppose if someone started harassing me or posting very offensive art I'd have to unsub, BUT (and it looks like you agree with me here) I'd tell them the reason.

I'm just not understanding this sneaky quick throwaway unsubbing that happens, particularly by other creators. Reminds me of the follow/unfollow method on Twitter, where people get you to follow them then unfollow you hoping you won't notice. I call them out there too.

I guess fundamentally we're at a disagreement here just due to personal views, and that's fair. I'm just a big bleeding heart who likes to help out fellow underdogs and encourage those with low amounts of subscribers, especially those who take the time to like and comment my stuff. I get and respect why you and others might do otherwise, though.

dlalas1 2015-05-15 16:15:05 UTC #51

You have 1800 subscribers so I don't know if you're seeing this from the point of view of the underdog. Would you really rather not have all those subs? And I'm curious, honestly speaking, would you have the confidence and drive to go on if you put all the effort you do into your comic and you only had 8 or 9 subscribers, with one comment every other update? And then you get to 10 every so often and you feel great (progress!), only to see that person flippantly unsubscribe.

eagle1 2015-05-15 16:36:32 UTC #52

Unfortunatly, I am caught in a dilemma there. See, my nature is to tell the person why I am unsubscribing, but I also do not want to give unsolicited critiques, as that can be harmful. By that token, you have pointed out that unsubbing without telling them why can have the same effect, therefor I have resolved to only do subscriptions on Comic Rocket where people can't tell who I have unsubbed. I will be informing everyone I am subbed to on this and several other services that I am switching all my subs to Comic Rocket, and that will be the end of that.

I'm finding my audience. I write for me, but in writing what I want to read, I know I am also writing what others want to read. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I want fans. I want people who like the story enough to keep coming back, and to get invested in the characters, and the world, and when the second NO-Earth title starts up in a couple of months, to be ready for that. The subs are one gauge, but I don't put a lot of stock in them. I have pageviews, likes, subs, session counts, pages per session, comments, and so on. Over half my hits on my main site have no referrers, which means they either typed the site name in, or had it bookmarked. There is a list of things that I use to gauge how people are liking the series and the site, even those that never sub, comment, or like.

My advice is stop placing so much importance on subscribers. I can't remember ever having judged a comic on the number of subscribers. I am on another forum where some of them judge the comic based on the updates to subscribers ratio. If the two numbers are close, they figure it's a good comic. Sillyness. The best way to judge a good or bad comic is to read it (or attempt to).

And by the way, I only have 7 subscribers over here. And I only have 1 comment every other update. I think I qualify as an underdog here.

Eagle
(I have a niche comic. Not going to be to a lot of people's taste)

hades 2015-05-15 17:10:22 UTC #53

You seem to think my subscribers magically appeared once I started my comic and that I didn't work to get where I am. That I've had no experience as an underdog on tapastic or elsewhere. That I haven't gone through YEARS of being a 'nobody' and learned to value every commenter, reader, and subscriber? Do you TRULY believe that just because I have a high number I sit on some high horse and undervalue my readers?

You ask if I'd trade over to having not that high of a count. YES. I FUCKING WOULD. Because why? BECAUSE THEY'D BE GENUINE READERS THAT CARE ABOUT MY FUCKING CONTENT. You know, what I brought up earlier.

To base yourself on numbers vs genuine readers is complete boulder-dash. It is a false sense of elitism and popularity and what HURTS the community more then aides it.

I apologize for my harsh words and long rant but to tell me I have not stood in the shoes of an underdog without knowing me as a person or my own life story is a bunch of grade A bullshit.

keii4ii 2015-05-15 17:15:19 UTC #54

That's a huge assumption to make, and honestly rather accusatory. @Marchen didn't get those subscribers overnight. She started from 0 like everyone else (except those who brought pre-existing fanbase from other sites, I guess). Just because she has over a thousand subscriber now doesn't mean she doesn't know what it's like to have only a few subscribers.

The value of a single subscriber is not dependent on how many subscribers you have in total. Whether you have 1 or 10k, it all depends on your outlook. Some people have a "subs are just numbers" attitude even when they're starting out, while toward the other end of the spectrum, I personally know creators who hover over the sub count to see the exact number and jump in joy every time they gain one. Don't make these assumptions about your fellow creators just because they seem like big fish to you.

Besides, 99.9% of us are underdogs in the grand scheme of things. That includes myself, and I have over 3k subscribers. I'm a nobody. Just another creatively insane person making a comic because they're driven to, even though it's actively hurting their financial situation (yes, I get teeny bit of pocket change from ad revenue, but it's not enough to pay ANY of my numerous bills).

And to answer your question even though it wasn't directed at me -- yes, I would rather lose all of my subscribers if they were just staying subbed out of pity and weren't enjoying the comic at all. Between five genuine fans and 50,000 people who only PRETEND to like my work, I would choose the former in a heartbeat, especially with a comic that I'm this passionate about.

dlalas1 2015-05-15 18:05:32 UTC #55

I don't think your subscribers "magically appeared", but the fact is that they are there now. You have 1800 subscribers. I didn't say you undervalue them, I'm saying that people who have far fewer subscribers see more of a difference when people sub or unsub. It's all relative, mathematically speaking.

I'm glad that you've achieved success. I hope you understand that not everyone does. I think you are very talented and you deserve it, but some people just get lucky and do get successful overnight. I've been doing webcomics for 10 years and for 9.5 of those years I got no views on my site, no comments, no attention at all from anyone, even my friends and family. I worked hard and saw absolutely zero results. I joined Tapastic this January and gradually started seeing results. They weren't huge, but it finally felt like after nearly a decade I was getting noticed. I'd finally found a community where people appreciated me. Every single subscriber and comment and like make up for the years of being ignored. And so seeing my subscribers go down kind of sucks, especially if I've gone and commented and liked their comic in return.

I suppose that's where we diverge. If I was still sitting at 4 subscribers at this point, with one comment every week (even if it was coming from a genuine place), I wouldn't be able to go on. After so many years I'd feel like all the work I put into my comic wouldn't be worth it.

muhdreams 2015-05-15 18:28:48 UTC #56

Lets see: one of the reasons I started with my comics was to eventually get better with drawing as a whole, so anything that has really good art I'll subscribe to, to kinda use as references I guess. That and anything that I feel has a similar sense of humor to my comics I usually subscribe too.

As for unsubscribing, I've only unsubscribed once, but it was cause I was too much of a fan of the story, despite with its really good artstyle. I don't like unsubbing cause I feel bad I guess, so I usually try to sub to ones I know I'll stick around for a really long time I guess.

dlalas1 2015-05-15 18:47:17 UTC #57

I don't think 99% of us are underdogs. In fact there are a bunch of big box comics that were incredibly successful (even financially) before they came on Tapastic and continue to dominate the field now, just because success breeds success. And their high sub counts get them seen by more people. Some of those people will sub just because whatever, while some will be genuine fans who wouldn't have seen the comic if it didn't have a large amount of subs. That's a fact. There are probably people out there who would love my comic, but can't find it because I don't have enough subscribers to stand out. So the number does matter, because it puts you out in front of potential genuine fans. Less popular comics need those "pity" subs to be seen by real subs.

I sometimes get messages from people saying "Your comic relates to me so much". But they've only seen it because they found it through another subscriber's activity feed. If I only had 4 subs, it wouldn't matter how active and genuine they were with their comments, my comic wouldn't reach people who would otherwise like my comic. And that's why I appreciate each and every person who likes/comments on my comics, and do so in return. If they have a comic you'd better believe that I will at the VERY least like each issue to help them out like they did me.

However I realize that at a certain point that becomes unmanageable (like if you have 3000 subs) and that's what I was saying. Unless you have a lot of time, you won't be able to get to every one of your subs' comics.

BUT to bring it back to my original point, and the topic of this thread-- I feel you should still support those who support you by not unsubscribing, because that hurts the creator, making them less visible. All I'm saying is that even if I ever got to over 1000 subscriptions, I would not unsub from anyone, and I would try my best to comment and like everyone who did that for me.

eagle1 2015-05-15 18:49:11 UTC #58

This. Nothing else, but this!

Eagle
(As I said, I want FANS, not numbers)

noxfox 2015-05-15 18:54:41 UTC #59

I don't really get why you are so upset about this. To me it looks a bit like, if someone were to talk to you while waiting the bus, or because they bumped into you in the street, you'd then --when they try to get back on their way-- yell at them "Where are you going!? We must be friends forever now!"

It's just my personal opinion but I tend to think that people who'd bother to stalk me to tell me why they'd be unsubscribing from my series might be people who feel kind of entitled. Even if knowing the reason might possibly be interesting, I am not much interested in knowing it as a creator, because I just go with the idea that I can't please everybody, and that there will always be people who thought they may like the story and finally turned out not liking it that much. Whatever is their reason, it's probably good to them, and there is probably nothing I could be willing to do that would make them like it, so that's why I don't care about their reasons. I have my way and I'm not going to stray from it because of one person.

keii4ii 2015-05-15 19:16:45 UTC #60

I think most of us would find that difficult. I know I would (or at least did), because I've been there with my previous comic. The difference is that some people, like @marchen and myself, would be even more devastated by fake subscribers than by having only a few subscribers for a long time. I would rather be told that I look ugly than be told a sugary lie. Does that mean I WANT to be told I look ugly? No, it just means I really, really, really don't want to be lied to, even if the person has good intentions.

I'm not denying those people exist. But they're less than 1% of the entirety of the webcomic creator population.

If your main goal is to support less popular comics, wouldn't it be better to actively promote them by giving shout outs?

The way I see it, yes, less popular comics could really use more exposure, but I would rather give my two cents of exposure to comics that I genuinely love -- regardless of popularity. If I don't personally enjoy a comic, I'm not going to help them out. Why? Because if I help everyone, that would simply lead to subscriber inflation, and inflation never helps anyone.

That's my stance, and I respect your right to disagree. I really think you could have presented this argument without passing judgement on people who disagree with you on this, though. Calling it rotten is going too far. Subscribing is a site feature that different users use in different ways. Just because someone unsubs from a comic, doesn't mean they want that comic to die in obscurity. You have to respect that, the same way I have to respect just because someone remains subbed to my comic without actually enjoying it, doesn't mean they're trolling me.

Self promotion has become a requirement for the vast majority of us.