Writing vs Art: it's not a contest

UrMom 2019-05-01 21:40:54 UTC #82

Yeah, @therealbereth, sorry for jumping on the bandwagon of responses... and making my reply so long... and if it came off as disrespectful. Even though I don't write novels anymore it used to be my hobby as a young kid, translating the story in your head onto paper is hard, doing it in a way that is captivating and inspiring is harder. I tip my hat to you in utmost respect!

QueenofBabyLoon 2019-05-01 23:27:46 UTC #83

Well, writing on Tapas has a character-limit of 15 000 characters per episode. That is about 2 500 words, more or less. Not more than 3 000, I believe. Taking into account that every chapter I write for my stories outside of Tapas is between 10 000 and 20 000 words, I assume 3 000 wouldn't be that painful. About 6 pages of Microsoft Word Times New Roman 12, the equivalent of a Grade 7 paper, yes? But painful enough for someone who is not used to writing.
Now, I don't know how Tapas works for comics. The comics I prefer on here are often very detailed, very precise in their setting. I know that I would not be able to draw even 1/100th of those comics (I think I could manage maybe a finger if you gave me 48 hours, a lot of reference material and 10 Youtube tutorials). So I assume one panel to be one episode of a comic.
But if you tell me that 3 000 words is the equivalent of 40 pages of a comic, I'll trust you on that.

JeanGuillet 2019-05-02 02:03:58 UTC #84

So much preparation work goes unappreciated into both disciplines, that when a master sits down and produces something great in very little time, no one sees the years that go in to getting to that point, same for art and writing both. None of this is easy.

punkarsenic 2019-05-02 07:29:15 UTC #85

huh, i figured it was like 40k... shows my ignorance

id say 6 pages of prose could be equivocated tooooo.... 10 pages? roughly

JRHoch 2019-05-02 09:13:13 UTC #86

Writing a novel can be as labor intensive and time consuming as drawing a comic. However, writing a comic is less work because the writer relies heavily on the artist to help tell the story.

This doesn't mean the writing is less important; it's just less of a time suck.

therealbereth 2019-05-02 09:56:14 UTC #87

Yes, this. We all keep honing our craft for years and years, and we never stop learning new skills, new techniques. That's why, over the years, I learned to cringe when people tell an artist/writer that they are so... talented. As if that alone makes for good work!

And that's why I am not the biggest fan of payment for the hours someone puts into their work. On the one hand, producing great work takes time (more time, of course, than mediocre quality or stick figures done by a child); on the other, great artists/writers get punished for their skills when they produce their work in less time than someone who's less skilled and needs more time to produce the same quality.

Someone on twitter put it into words: You pay your artists not for the time they took for their work, but for the time they used to learn their craft to even produce that work you want.

punkarsenic 2019-05-02 10:30:51 UTC #88

this is where its a bit of a math game. someone who is less experienced and takes longer to produce a comic will likely be paid less per hour than someone with ten years experience who can bang it out over a week. as your experience and skill level goes up, so should your pay per hour.

like, we aint talking about paying all artists minimum wage here.

therealbereth 2019-05-02 10:57:30 UTC #89

Yeah, of course, though the question is if and how employers even value this distinction. I feel like, no matter how skilled, artists/writers are underpaid in every field. I can only speak from what I've seen in my home country, of course, but it doesn't look good for any of us honestly. Seems like we seriously need some unions.

punkarsenic 2019-05-02 11:16:12 UTC #90

absolutely - i never want employers to set the pay rates. this is why we need unions and to mutually agree what were worth

for example, arts union england has pay standsards like this:

now id say you could apply these to comic work, although we usually charge via page rates (which is the main way of making sure faster artists benefit more, they get paid more per hour bc theyre making more pages per hour). itd be great to have our own agreed pay scale that took into account the specific work comic practitioners do and our specific working conditions

ive done some googling and cant find anything, but there HAS to be some kind of comics labour union, right??? does anyone know??

skicoak 2019-05-02 15:49:00 UTC #91

If there is... it's not affiliated with the AFL-CIO.

I know Neal Adam's tried to start a grass roots campaign in the 70's but despite making gains on return of original art and some creator's credits/rights with some publishers... he hit a wall going against Stan Lee and Marvel over the treatment of Kirby and his work.

punkarsenic 2019-05-02 16:26:53 UTC #92

i remember reading about this in reinventing comics, and the creators bill of rights - i just figured the creators who made that bill must have unionised, it seems an obvious step. though in the 80s... maybe not...

i found this article that says they tried and failed to unionise:

BUT, THEY MADE A LIST OF RATES!!

(adjusted for inflation)

Artists: $1080
Writers: $360
Letterers: $144
Colorists: $252

i dunno if these rates are realistic in todays market (itd be 40k per 20 page issue) but its an interesting bit of history to say the least

i think this is turning into a topic for its own thread, but this is so interesting, so this will be my final post abt this in this thread and then i might start a new one

anyway, we should unionise. i realise everyone on this forums is very small beans, but there are plenty of leftists in the comic industry, and unionist sentiment is on the rise, even in america. why is there not more talk about unionising the comics industry?

we should unionise

JeanGuillet 2019-05-02 16:41:13 UTC #93

I believe this outfit is trying to help standardize things and represent people. I quote in line with their page rates when people ask me about comics.

https://www.graphicartistsguild.org/

and these guys did industry surveys about page rates for a few years:

punkarsenic 2019-05-02 18:03:40 UTC #94

yes!!! id heard of them but i couldnt remember their name and couldnt find them on google, thank you! though its annoying that their price guidelines arent available publicly...

ive also heard about this survey, which is where i based my own page rates. its cool that its based on the $15 minimum wage - @skicoak maybe fairpagerates is a better source to site than the site with the publisher averages? i feel like ive seen you cite it before

~~i know i said last post but im too tired to make a new thread rn so. apologies~~

skicoak 2019-05-02 18:38:02 UTC #95

I have cited it before... but I feel, on a basic level, it's a bit problematic to site the rates that represent what the creatives think they SHOULD get paid (on minimum) versus the reality of what publishers are actually paying.

A word on unions... My pops was a union organizer for The United Steelworkers of America ...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1978/12/10/newport-news-is-bracing-for-a-shipyard-strike/8c5a15de-734e-485f-af97-b239c93eae4f/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.fb2ef40c68dc

I'm extremely proud of the work he did and his passion for union principles is on open display in the article about his greatest union drive. (He's the Jack Hower in the article, I'm a JR.) And we've discussed the schism in trying to organize creative fields repeatedly. Most jobs/trades deal with a task that has a relatively agreeable value if done competently. The arts get complicated.... finished products don't have equal value even among competent creators. It makes establishing a minimum pay scale difficult... you can price people completely out of a industry and create a barrier to entry level employment.

It creates a massive conflict in my own opinions on this.

SleepingPoppy 2019-05-02 18:38:36 UTC #96

I think it's fine to just continue the conversation here. Pretty sure the original conversation is done and this is a natural follow up. (And I'm at least enjoying reading this continuation)

punkarsenic 2019-05-02 18:47:55 UTC #97

hmm thats fair. i spose the best route is to just cite both and clarify the difference?

thats awesome!

hmmm thats very true... although i dont think theyre impossible hurdles. i wont try to address them here bc i rly think im hijacking this thread and i also dont rly have the answers

i spose, though if it became a new thread it could attract new ideas from ppl who arent reading along?

SleepingPoppy 2019-05-02 19:05:34 UTC #99

Supply and demand. More writers want an artist than artists want writers.

SleepingPoppy 2019-05-02 19:10:52 UTC #101

You're welcome! Glad we could clear that whole thing up! Have a nice day.

turtleme 2019-05-02 19:14:54 UTC #102

Just to chime in here as a novel author and script writer (and only script writer) for my comic, it boils down to a few things.

Wording, when a writer is making a pitch to collaborate with an artist, is very important. If it's something along the lines of "make my fantastic words into art!", then you're implying that you want to make your own dreams into a reality by utilizing the services of someone else. If that's the case, then paying up front makes sense. If you wish to split evenly 50/50 and you're that confident in your work, I would still pay an advance in royalty. This is what traditional publishers do as well as many other platforms when bringing in new works. This can be implied when collaborating with an artist.
How detailed is your script? Working in the comic-making industry for a bit, I realized how in-depth and detailed a script can be. There are some writers like myself who tend to describe every panel, from the perspective, the angle shot, the effects used, the emotions portrayed, while providing the artist references for everything. Other writers, tend to leave it more to be interpreted by the author, providing a basic scene and leaving it up to the artist to draw up themselves. While both can be considered scriptwriting, the first relieves a lot of creative and concept work for the artist, letting him/her truly focusing on making the scene, while the second does little more than giving a the artist a novel and telling him/her to adapt it himself.
Qualifications. It really sucks, but there's a certain weight when a well-known, perhaps New York bestselling author, makes a collaboration pitch, than an up-and-coming writer with little under his belt. There's an inherent risk in collaborating with someone that hasn't finished a book before that an artist might not want to take. That's understandable and smart. As for the writer, I feel like I've said this before, but the best way to make a pitch isn't to exclaim how great an idea of a comic you have, but building a resume or portfolio so that artists that you're trying to attract can be confident in not only your writing skills, but your dedication to sticking out with a story.

In the end, I think I find it hypocritical when a writer, who hasn't finished a book or even started one, wants to create a story with an artist, and then denies every artist that says they're interested because their artwork or style isn't good enough. Just like how writers look at an artist's portfolio or past work, it's not wrong for an artist to look at a writer's portfolio (and if he doesn't have one, then something of similar value, which might be monetary compensation).

SleepingPoppy 2019-05-02 19:17:41 UTC #104

Just a fun note: If the thing you're mad about boils down to "Someone else won't work on my thing for free!" you are the problem, not the people that won't give you a chance. It doesn't matter if it's The Next Big Thing or not.

I'm not saying no one should ever take a chance on someone else's ideas. I'm saying if you're mad when they don't, you're the problem. It has nothing to do with art verses writing, it has to do with entitlement. YOU are not entitled to someone else's time, talent, or effort. You don't get to be mad they won't bend for you, a total stranger. You could be the next Steven King and this kind of attitude still makes you a jerk.