10 REAL writing advice without sugar-coating

Freemints30 2022-12-26 17:12:51 UTC #5

Irony of not tagging LGBTQ is... not good advice. Like in internet terms its actually reccomended to find your audience and save you the head ache of some bell ends dropping your work and coming into your comment section or review section calling it forced diversity and review bomb it (yes it happened so many times before espcially novels that aimed at the isakie crowd). It also helps the audience desprete for said content actually more willing to read and purchase your stuff.

In novel terms... thats a bad idea in terms of marketing. Like im in a self publishing server with writers some making some good month coin and made it thier full time job. Most say "if you got it in your story. LGBTQ rep, POC, ect advertise the hell outta of it. The audience is hungry for it and are actively searching. Dont ever be shy of doing that. Make it your niche if you can."

I personally dont belive their such a thing as forced diversity. Poorly written? yes poorly researched? Also yes. Forced? Nah

This advises although has some decent takes are not all that personally

DokiDokiTsuna 2022-12-26 17:59:22 UTC #6

This is a bit...eeeeeehhhh...like, I feel like it's kind of right, but also kind of wrong...?

I agree that, to have a good story, you do need to try to present smart ideas. If your story is filled with stupid/dull statements and doesn't make logical sense, people will naturally think less of it even if they continue reading. They just won't be able to be immersed in your world if they always have to stop to figure out what the hell you're trying to say.

HOWEVER...vocabulary isn't the only way to present that you are smart. ^^; In fact, it's a very superficial way to try to present intelligence, and one that's liable to make you look a lot less intelligent if you slip up. Constantly using 9-dollar words in slightly inaccurate ways (because you don't fully understand them...) just makes you look like a poser and a clown. =/

I think writing earnestly is a much better way to go about things. Don't waste energy pretending to be an author who sounds "right"; the only "right" kind of author to be is yourself.
If you like to look up fun new words and add them to your vocabulary (carefully and through understanding their normal context and usage) then go ahead. But if you don't, if you're more comfortable talking 'plain', then that's fine too. You can show how smart you are in other ways, like by writing clever characters who solve difficult problems, or by adding interesting insights and observations about the world.

This is just my two cents, but I think this is kind of a mean question...? ^^; I mean, personally I've been giving writing advice for years, and nothing I've written has been published or 'successful' by any stretch of the imagination (and yet, I've never been asked this...probably because it's mean...).

I'll assume you're expecting a 'no' (which I understand tbh) but if OP were to answer 'yes', would it really change how you feel about their advice...? Is it not enough to criticize it on its own merits? Lots of professionals give bad advice every day; getting a book published or even just getting people to look at it isn't necessarily an indication of artistic skill or insight.

I think this is admittedly better advice than Point 8, even if it may not look that way at first glance. Yeah, it does sound better on paper to "write about people without labels", but on the other hand, minorities are called that for a reason. ^^; And the fact that writing about them is seen as a trend (or a genre...) is itself an indicator of the inequality that still exists, and the necessity for people to actually have to seek out representation.

And they won't find you if you don't tell them you're there. ^^; There are ways to do this without being obnoxious; simply tagging your work appropriately and leaving it at that is fine.

....Dropping a story just because your fans aren't engaging with it "correctly" is not exactly a professional attitude. :T

People will ALWAYS see and latch onto whatever they want in your stories, even if it's 'lowest common denominator' stuff like their favorite ship (and the more popular you get as an author, the more it will happen). First of all, there's nothing really wrong with that, I'm sure we've all done it at some point, even if we never said it out loud...secondly, it's a little odd to imply that the lesbian relationship wasn't an important aspect of the story and that your fans were wrong to focus on it, and simultaneously decide the rest of the story wasn't worth telling because they kept commenting on it. In the end, you still allowed shipping to ruin your story.

If their comments were offensive/made you uncomfortable, I could understand wanting to quit...but if it were me, I'd either disable comments, or just drop the whole rest of the story and THEN leave.

I work HARD on my writing, and no amount of horny strangers are going to make me abandon a story that I'm proud of. Besides, if your work is popular enough to attract regular commenters, it's a sure bet that you have silent readers who are also following along and may genuinely appreciate everything that you're trying to do. I think they deserve to see the experience through to the end.

HGohwell 2022-12-26 18:16:55 UTC #7

Most of these sort of books are meant for beginner writers, that's why. There are some amazing writing books out there, but the big popular ones are the easily digestible beginner ones. Personally, I love Sol Stein's Stein On Writing that gives a more down to earth, helpful realistic look at writing. Just like the most popular writing advice youtube channels are often just lists of the same basic tropes and advice over and over in 20 minute chunks because they're for beginners vs the channels that do several parts for up to an hour at a time going in depth.And just like how the most popular art books art "how to draw" and go over the same basic lessons over and over in different fonts.

This is conflating 2 different issues. You absolutely should write what you think is good. No, not everyone will like your work and, yes, people do have different tastes. None of this is wrong. There's a perfectly good point here about taking criticism and not letting the idea of people having different tastes stopping you improving but that "inspirational bs" is actually good advice that is objectively true.

You know GL is a type of Romance right? If you tag it GL it's romance. Wow, people read a romance and were interested in the romance? Here's some non-sugar coated advice, even taking from your own earlier advice about making excuses: don't blame your readers. Maybe your GL romance was just the most engaging part of your story. Or maybe you tagged the wrong genre. While it's perfectly valid to say you want one part stronger than the other, if all your audience is talking about is the minor part, you've either tagged the wrong genre or your writing is weak in that area. And dropping it because is pretty petty, to be honest. As a reader, I'd be wary of reading works from an author who just drops works like that.

Also, while it fine to say you don't tag these things, they're important tags. Because they help people find books they're interested in. Maybe lesbians want to find GL. Maybe trans people want to find stories about trans people. And maybe some assholes will throw a tantrum and spam you if they expected a het romance and got a gay one.

Not to mention bad representation is not the same as forced. Maybe rookie writers aren't forcing it, maybe they want to write a romance that's includes these things because they want to. Maybe it's unnatural because they're rookies and don't have a grasp on writing yet, let alone good romance. And why just LGBT? You just gonna ignore all the veteran writers who write unnatural, god awful, forced straight romance? This isn't an LGBT thing, or a rookie thing, this is a writing in general thing where some time people just suck at writing romance.

Sorry if a lot of this seems harsh, but while this advice seems like it's coming from the right place, the not sugar-coating just makes it come off as rude in places and almost like you're trying to be edgy and undermining your own point in others. Not to mention, doesn't seem like it's taking Tapas' specific market into account, especially with the LGBT points, where this is a big plus. You seem to be playing cynicism and negativity as honesty a little.

Ordinaryaverageguy 2022-12-26 18:59:16 UTC #8

I enjoyed the snarky approach, and I think there's some good advice in there.
1. & 2. are kinda just facing reality.
4. the "BS" works for some people who find satisfaction in the writing itself. For me, a story told without audience appreciation is like a tree falling in the forest.
5. Yup.
7. & 10. seem like different views of the same issue. If writing about something that really exists, it behooves the writer to try to get the facts right.

darthmongoose 2022-12-26 19:13:32 UTC #9

I wouldn't have asked it if the advice given had more humility to the tone. Say I'm being mean if you wish, that's a fair opinion, but... isn't saying all the other advice given by writers is "BS" mean? That's a very mean thing to say, and it's an extremely arrogant thing to say!

If somebody is willing to step up into a public place and say, "listen, ALL the other inspiring advice you've read from popular writers? It's BULLSHIT. Here is my REAL advice for you." then I feel like they ought to have something to back that up. Why is their advice more real than the advice somebody like Neil Gaiman gives from his experience of years of successful writing? What qualifies them to say that?

Also, the advice isn't simply about stuff a person whose qualifications are "I finished a bunch of novels" is perfectly qualified to give. You can give helpful advice without being a success, like if somebody finished a bunch of chapters, I'm sure they'd give great advice on how to keep going, stay focused and motivated, have discipline, avoid writing themselves into a corner: all good stuff! BUT this advice isn't all about that, it's like "Don't put forced diversity into your novel." WHY? Based on what outcome can OP say that not putting "forced diversity" into books is a good idea? Did not putting it in lead to success, or is OP just saying a bunch of stuff? If there's no evidence that doing so was actually helpful, it's not good advice.

And so, since OP says they have written ten books, but their Tapas profile only has one with less than 50 subs, and no links so I can see what following these guidelines has resulted in... the question hangs there... what's the evidence that this advice is effective? So to answer your question, yes, actually, if OP turned out to be actually hugely popular on certain platforms, it would change how I feel about the advice, because then it might be reframed as "might not be great advice for Tapas, but might be good advice on KDP or in print of something based on this evidence."

IndigoShirtProd 2022-12-26 22:08:17 UTC #10

Do you mean a tree falling in the forest with no one around to hear it?

bulgariansumo 2022-12-26 22:15:22 UTC #11

I feel like there is a point where this stops being true. That point, I think, is where it sounds like the author used a thesaurus for every other word. Like the kind of writer who refuses to use 'said' as a dialogue tag and resorts to strange, unfitting synonyms.* Sometimes simplicity works best.

I can't say I'm giving this advice from a place of having successful writing, but I have read my fair share of bad writing.

*(I'll admit that I also don't use 'said,' but I try to at least use fitting synonyms and spice up how I do dialogue tags in order for it not to sound awkward. But even still, using 'said' is not illegal. Don't overuse it, of course, but sometimes it's the word you need!)
--

While I personally think having more diverse representation is important, I don't have an issue with point 8 itself. If someone comes up with a story that just so happens to not have any LGBT+, POC, etc. characters, I don't think that's a crime. Those types of stories have been and will continue to be liked if they resonate with people, even marginalized groups.

The thing I find kind of silly is the bit about fans focusing on a relationship instead of the actual story. That's... kind of how a big swath of fandom operates. It doesn't really say anything good or bad about the quality of the story or the representation. People will find a reason to ship anything. I personally find the hyperfocus on shipping a little annoying at times. I'm not looking forward to it happening to my own work (assuming it gets popular enough )

But the thing that has to be remembered is, that is a form of love. Those people liked your characters. They could've shipped two characters from some other series, or made up their own (and maybe they did), but they chose to focus on your characters.

If people only focus on one aspect of your story while seemingly ignoring the rest, it's natural to feel upset by that. Again, it doesn't mean your story has nothing else of value. People just REALLY like shipping. Considering that you described it as a GL mystery novel and not "a mystery novel that just happened to have two women in love," I imagine that relationship was fairly important to the story.

Ordinaryaverageguy 2022-12-26 22:44:40 UTC #12

Yes. I assumed the reference would be enough & I didn't need to fill out the whole thing.

bulgariansumo 2022-12-26 23:45:07 UTC #13

I do agree that OP is going to have to do a lot more convincing if they want to present themselves as an authority like this. But I checked out the stats and likes-wise, their novel is doing really well for its genre. Compared to the like totals of the current 100 most popular novels in the same genre, it's in top 10 by a long shot. Almost top 5. Not to mention that right now it's toward the top (I dunno if OP wants people to find their novel from this thread, so I won't say which place.)

Since they're writing a in less popular genre, it still might not be the best advice for writing on Tapas specifically, but I wouldn't take the numbers OP managed to achieve lightly. Even the sub count. They're doing better than the vast majority of novellists on here that aren't writing in a romance genre.

LunarScyphozoa 2022-12-26 23:59:11 UTC #14

Your tone here is a bit more “All other writers are garbage” than “I’m very good”, which makes me personally very reluctant to consider your advice.

abigaillmartin 2022-12-27 00:03:55 UTC #15

Yeah I agree. When I first read it I felt it was a little like woah!

Mallory 2022-12-27 00:11:02 UTC #16

I think it's your sentence and paragraph flow that make you seem like a sophisticated writer rather than what words you use, to be honest. There are some authors who are recognized as literary geniuses who use a pretty sparse vocabulary because they manage to get the most out of every word they use based on context. My language actually got more simple as I became more experienced (thought I did get some brain damage in the part of my brain that's responsible for language and words, so it's certainly become harder to think of more unique words. I don't think it's affected my writing that much though, and most of my beta readers like the newer writing more).

DasIstWunderblyat 2022-12-27 00:57:42 UTC #17

The fact about how your readers are talking about the lesbian relationship instead of the main mystery plot may be also caused by the fact that readers tend to comment on fun, simpler, and catchy things. They most likely do fully notice the whole mystery going on, but they just don't comment on it for some reasons. Probably they have theories, but think it's silly so they never said it. Probably they want to analyze a character, but they're worried to get it wrong. Probably they just remember an unpleasant feeling of having to do book reviews having to dissect the theme and choose to comment on the shipping instead.

You only know what on a reader's mind by their comment, and it's only a small fraction. You don't even know what's in the mind of those who don't comment. I feel like it's a waste to stop writing because of that. I don't get shipping but it's fine as it's harmless fun. Unless someone is starting to get harassed or sucked into a conflict which is also a cause many people quit a scene.

Also you can't control what readers think (unless you want to be a dictator author). Plus, part of their perception is shaped by what we write, and how we conveyed it. Maybe it comes out differently as being perceived by most other people, than by us.

It reminds me of a person who discouraged people to like their villain. No, I don't want your shitty projection protagonist, so I pick the one who make them suffer. Thanks.

DasIstWunderblyat 2022-12-27 01:39:08 UTC #18

Also about the vocabulary thingy, it reminds me of the weird translation I often see in imported products or those of my own. (I am an ESL)

The vocabulary is fancy, and it is used in appropriate context. For example:
"Our food commands excellent gustatory sensations"
Yet it sounds stilted and unnatural, and you can obviously discern that they don't speak English

Compare with:
"Our food fills your tongue with joy,"
Which use average vocabularies, but sounds more conmunicative and appealing.

Reminds me of this

But hey, I think aside that and what other people have pointed out, your advice hold some truth!

Panpan 2022-12-27 02:11:05 UTC #19

I would’ve failed if I followed some of these points haha. I do write what I think is good, and people like it if there’s something weird about a certain a paragraph I wrote, they let me know in my server.

Also with the vocab point #6, this is truly an opinion by the OP. Read any big novel on tapas and most don’t use all that flowery fluff to make a novel “smarter.” In fact, it’s pretty simple, just worded and edited well. I really can’t see why someone would wanna use complicated vocab just to make it look more adult unless that was the style they’re going for, but good luck attracting an audience on a website that’s made of mainly teens, young adults, and others looking for a casual read lol.

Hayka 2022-12-27 06:59:09 UTC #20

I havent. That's why I said they don't work. They usually say pretty words to motivate you and sell their work. Kickass Writer was one of the good ones I read that gave legit advice.
And as to the question, well I finished my first volume and am about to publish. I started many series, especially on wattpad, got some high ranks, but never got to FINISH them. This one is the first novel I finished and am halfway done with editing.uploading. Check it out ig.

Hayka 2022-12-27 07:01:32 UTC #21

hmmm...I guess...well they're too...ummm...pessimitic and toxic in a way to be called ADVICE. I had a tough time writing, just thought I should share experience. If you were looking for "do your best and write what you like" then sorry to disappoint. That was NOT my experience

Hayka 2022-12-27 07:07:05 UTC #23

yeah I know. I was just saying "write LGBT well" since it has more audience and thus...more respnsibility and stronger representation

Hayka 2022-12-27 07:10:22 UTC #24

yeah I know about the risks, but I'll still do it.
I want my LGBT ships to progress with a good pace without people looking for it. It's fun making a ship that someone who wasn't expecting it finds it cute and wholesome, and I don't write LGBT focused novels, they're usually thriller and fantasy and psychological with LGBT ships. So I don't want people to look for smth that's not the focus, and be surprised (or mad) when it happens.

Hayka 2022-12-27 07:24:36 UTC #25

reminds me of that Kaguya meme :3
oh yeah vocab isnt the only way, thats why I said don't take it seriously. It's just one of the ways to improve it, and its definitely important, but vocab and grammar being everything is just smth in the past for classic novels. webnovels don't need to have that and people read stories they enjoy. so yeah don't really take that statement seriously.

indeed indeed. I actually had more reasons, but that kinda got me tired. It was a heavy mystery series and it got #140 in wattpad mystery section so it was pretty popular a couple of years ago, and most of the comments were just people looking for cute lgbt moments, which was not what I intended. So I removed it for a rewrite later on a platform where the majority care about the story and don't lose focus. I do like it when people comment on cute GL moments but not when that's ALL they comment on. Imagine dropping a HUGE plot twist that would change everything in the flow of your story, and then someone goes "uwu cute girls being cute" I was literally frozen in front of pc, staring blankly at the comment, thinking "wait that's all?" it kinda made me lose heart because whenever I was hyped posting layered dialogue or some good mystery, they never commented on it, like how a little dialogue back in chapter 3 played a big part in chapter 14. But yeah. That was quite unprofessional...maybe I'll start it again sometime.