"A friendship between man and woman is a lie" + "A friendship between woman and woman is a lie, too" tropes = women can't have friends at all... (partially NSFW and whining)

[DiegoPalacios]

according to the most of cliched romance movies and novels (and to some of my close family members)... women can't have friends. Eventually, this follow from a "fact" that all of the woman's life is spinning around dicks and reproduction, in one way or another.The purpose of women's life is to sit down on a good dick, receive a sperm inside into her womb and then produce and raise children with a material support of sperm's donor. That's the main woman's happiness is about, according to these people. Of course, this all is decorated with romantic attributes, but the core is exactly this.

As a dude who befriended women and have some of these women being friends to each other, i can call bullshit on that statement.

The people who makes these judgements DON'T understand women at all.......or the very basic fact that women are in fact........human beings.

[vothnthorvaldson]

Honestly, I just avoid these stories. I can 'smell' these things very early into the stories from first interactions between characters, and I just reject the story.

The problematic case that happens way more with the kind of publishing we have here is when it starts as healthy interactions and then go into unhealthy gender roles because of pressure from readers. I saw that a few times. That pisses me much because I'm already into the story. I still do abandon it too, though.

But some people are really convinced of these things though: I even had people trying to convince me that I'm an introvert BECAUSE I am pan and thus, can't make 'true' or 'pure' friendships, like I wanted to have sex with EVERYONE because I'm pan. People.....

[Vada]

Seriously? It's been almost twenty years since I came out as two-spirited. I remember my "friends" at the time thinking it meant I wanted to hookup with everyone. I can't believe this sort of ignorance still exists. I'm sorry you had to go through something like that.

[azzy-m]

It gets a little frustrating sometimes. Sometimes I get "shipped" with my guy friends because I'm friends with them and male + female = romance.

(I pity Tom Holland and Zendaya, from what I see they're dealing with something similar except there's thousands more talking about how they'll be GF and BF. I've been there buddy.)

Please don't do this. It's very uncomfortable and awkward for both people involved and neither of them are fictional characters. They are people, not objects you can push your fantasies to.

I think it's important to show a boy and a girl just being close friends without it evolving into romance. I hardly ever see a guy and a girl in media being close friends that doesn't become a romance and the writers making it a completely casual thing that happens.

[unknown_user]

The problematic case that happens way more with the kind of publishing we have here is when it starts as healthy interactions and then go into unhealthy gender roles because of pressure from readers. I saw that a few times. That pisses me much because I'm already into the story. I still do abandon it too, though.

I don't mind to see an unhealthy relationships in fiction, if they seems to be depicted and analyzed by the author honestly, with consistency and understanding. But yes, I'm very irritated, if they are presented as a "TRUE LOVE™", like, when author seems to have no understanding of their own characters, and present all shit they are doing as "LOVE", instead of making any attempt to honestly analyze and highlight their true motives through the story. I think, in this aspect we share the same thought
As you already probably understood, in my own story I want to devote some attention to unhealthy relationships as well (and mock on some romance stereotypes, too). I also don't mind to see and write "bad" (from gray to black) characters, if I think that they are well and honestly written. In this case, I even find them more interesting than good characters, because if the characters aren't obligated to be "good", they can have more diverse personality and more complicated psychology problems.

But some people are really convinced of these things though: I even had people trying to convince me that I'm an introvert BECAUSE I am pan and thus, can't make 'true' or 'pure' friendships, like I wanted to have sex with EVERYONE because I'm pan. People.....

It's a problem for me either. There were... more than one cases, when a girlfriend or a wife of my friend got jealous of him to me strongly, so spending too much time or having too much conversations with me caused him a problems. As a result, we had to drift away from each other for awhile, to not cause him more problems and not to worry his girl so much. As a result, I have to always remind myself, that I should be very careful, communicating with male friend, who has a spouse/GF, to not make her jelaous and not cause him problems... because it's so easy to make some people jelaous...
From one side, it's understandable, that they worry about their men, when they are around me, cause I'm well-known for my... too free views. From another side, I openly claim that I will not make any attempts in the direction toward physical closeness to any close friend (and will refuse any of such a possible attempts from him, if they'll ever appear), IF I already know that he has deep monogamic relationships with a girl, who will seemingly be deeply hurt from it. I don't want to spoil a life and relationships of a people, who mean a lot to me. The sad side is... not everyone entirely believes me.
P.S. Now, thinking about this, I think that maybe it's still my fault to some degree. It's hard to believe a person, who have deceived people before and made a decent amount of bad things toward others in the past. Even despite I didn't deceive anybody in THIS particular aspect.

[unknown_user]

I think it's important to show a boy and a girl just being close friends without it evolving into romance. I hardly ever see a guy and a girl in media being close friends that doesn't become a romance and the writers making it a completely casual thing that happens.

Yes, it would be interesting to see more of this.

[vothnthorvaldson]

Oh yes, I have no issue with the depiction of unhealthy realtionships either; that can be very interesting.
I meant in the context of your complains about the depiction of relationships supposed 'good' or 'normal'.

[alliascompany]

I forgot what the movie was called, but I watched one with my sister where MC starts having an affair with her best friend's fiancee. In the background there's the typical guy friend that both girls grew up with.

So I'm like, "Don't Tell me, MC will either realize her mistake and end up with guy friend or MC ends up with fiancee and best friend ends up with guy friend."

But as the movie kept going, Guy friend and the girls showed no romantic interests with each other. So was like finally! A guy friend who stays a guy friend.

And then we get to the part of the movie where the affair is found out. MC is sulking and guy friend is like
"You know, there was another person who has feelings for you."

Uuuughhhh. I mean he still doesn't end up with MC, it was more of a reflection scene for MC and then she ends up with the fiancee. At the end there's like a weird scene where it looks like best friend is randomly going start pursuing Guy friend now maybe? Guy friend is like "oh no..." Then movie ends.what was the point of his character???

[unknown_user]

The point was probably just to emphasize that everyone, who communicate with female MC long enough, fall in love with her. I.e. like she is so lovable and attractive or something like that.
Can't say for sure, though, because didn't watch the movie.

[alliascompany]

Honestly the movie was mess. It was typical wallflower brunette jealous of popular gets everything she wants blonde. Still not sure why they were really friends in the first place.

I think his entire purpose was for MC realize she had to speak up for herself and that she let's her best friend get her way.
Still I would have liked if the guy friend had stayed the voice of reason without revealing he had feelings for her.

[erma]

These types of romance stories usually have some of my absolute least favourite tropes. I would generally like to see this happen less often:

• The woman's life revolves around a man and doesn't talk about anything else other than this man.

• Women tearing each-other down and generally being nasty towards each other..

• women and men not being able to just be friends without one of them having a crush, or only staying friends with other person because they're sexually attracted to them. That one especially is just.... no. Please can we see more genuine friendships between men and women? It does happen in real life!!

• "I'm not like the other girls. I drink beer and play video games. Other girls are so shallow. I'm different."

• A woman that isn't interested in marrying a man and/or having kids, but is dismissed by people in her life and told that one day she'll change her mind because "biology" or something.

I can't read or watch romance stories if they have a bunch of stuff like this. @__@

[SilentHamster102]

I never understood this concept actually.
Maybe because I have a girl among my friends, real friend. Not like "friendzone" or something, but real friendship. We drink beer (and not only beer) together, making stupid jokes which is funny if you're drunk, discussing action movies, cars, guns and knives, etc. You know, like friends doing it.

[skicoak]

As a guy who has had numerous friendships with varying types of women, there's a discord in approaching them the same as other types of friendships.

It's not a judgement of any sort, but there are women who when not engaged in a personal relationship will utilize male friends in masculine traditional roles. This creates the ILLUSION of a different type of relationship to outside parties and sometimes to the male as well.

For example, a 3 a.m. phone call to kill a spider because her boyfriend is deployed for 6 months. In reality, it requires a certain maturity and willingness to accept the role of substitute without stupidly engaging in other thought patterns.

However in fictional narratives, this is a breeding ground for sexual tension and intrigue with exaggerations of cliched behaviors.

So the deployed boyfriend, in fiction and reality, could easily be the trope barrier here.

[unknown_user]

That's cool

[unknown_user]

It's not a judgement of any sort, but there are women who when not engaged in a personal relationship will utilize male friends in masculine traditional roles. This creates the ILLUSION of a different type of relationship to outside parties and sometimes to the male as well.

Yes, I think I know what are you talking about. It happens. But it bothers me a lot, when people say that ONLY "substitution of a boyfriend"-type or friendzone-type relationships are possible between people of different sexes. Very different kind of relationships between men and women may have place in reality. So, more sincere kind of friendship happens as well. At least, I think so.

[skicoak]

But it bothers me a lot, when people say that ONLY "substitution of a boyfriend"-type or friendzone-type relationships are possible between people of different sexes. Very different kind of relationships between men and women may have place in reality. So, more sincere kind of friendship happens as well.

I don't disagree with you. I have many different kinds of friendships with several females so I know they can exist.

But the trope/cliche is built around real patterns of behaviors that can be read "wrong" by outside parties or misinterpreted by one of the two (or more) parties involved.

Forgive the sexist implications but in these types of relationships being the male friend who lifts heavy stuff for his friend, Kills bugs, holds purse etc. doesn't have a reversed equivalent in many of these relationships. There's a lack of quid pro quo as they say.

It confuses the lines of equitable friendships.

[SleepingPoppy]

Forgive the sexist implications but in these types of relationships being the male friend who lifts heavy stuff for his friend, Kills bugs, holds purse etc. doesn't have a reversed equivalent in many of these relationships. There's a lack of quid pro quo as they say.

Ski, I will hold, lift, or kill bugs for you if the need arises. ^^

[skicoak]

Ski, I will hold, lift, or kill bugs for you if the need arises. ^^

Ha ha! I appreciate the offer​.

I'm really talking more about the fictional imbalance ....in reality, either party has accepted the imbalance when engaging in the relationship and should have the maturity to deal with it or move on.

[AceRagz]

Idk when I had to raise my niece I had a friend explain menstruation to her and I was grateful to her about it since I was terrified I would say the wrong thing and either have my niece scared about her periods or misinformed. Its not lifting things or killing bugs but lol I sure didn't feel right about explaining it and needed help.

[skicoak]

Idk when I had to raise my niece I had a friend explain menstruation to her and I was grateful to her about it

That's a great real world situation.

But if that was a fictionalized situation, You raising your niece and having a menstruation sub-plot pretty much guarantees you're not in this cliche/trope.