Any advice to fix this plot structure and make it flow together better? It's not finished, but this will be the general plot

NickRowler 2023-07-26 04:36:29 UTC #4

What about your plot are you worried about? You seem to have a lot written down here.

I think personally some of it seems very cliche. That is sort of the issue with the Chosen One trope, it's just been done about a thousand times. I guess something you could think about is what the whole concept of what the "Chosen One" means to you. I have seen writers use it to parallel religious or political ideals and had their story be used as a commentary or allegory.

moontokkym 2023-07-26 04:46:03 UTC #5

I mean I'm not familiar with dan harmon's craft tips but they're always useful as an idea for structure rather than hard and fast rules.
Also for "getting what you want and paying for it" you can use it as a way to make sure your plot is never stagnant because you achieve one goal while creating your next conflict so they are logical together. I can't remember who I'm quoting but I remember a storywriting seminar where the speaker said:

"Write down all your story beats using connectors. If any of your story beats are connected by then or and you're f*cked. All story beats should be connected by therefore or but."

Basically trying to say that every story beat should flow logically from the next or be a catalyst for conflict with the previous beat.

Taken in that light, for your examples about "when do these people get what they want and pay for it?":

Luke becomes a jedi but loses his mentor / finds the secret of his past but finds out his dad's in the big evil team
Harry Potter finds out he's a famous wizard that people want to be around when he used to be mistreated and despised but finds out everyone wants a bit of his fame for themselves and most adults around him still treat him like an object
Aang finds the air nomads he was looking for but finds out that they're all dead and he's alone.

There are so many examples like this because this is how conflict is made and built. After each of these the characters react and do things that they wouldn't have done had there not been the "but" statements, even in basic scenarios in almost every genre:

the heroine falls in love, but her love interest already has a partner → CONFLICT
the orphan wants to find out about their past but they find out their parents were horrible people and would rather have never known → CONFLICT
the MC tells their deepest darkest secret to someone they trust to finally be free of the lie they've been carrying but that person doesn't accept them afterwards now they know → CONFLICT
the MC finally kills their archenemy to be at peace but that archenemy had friends who want to avenge their death → CONFLICT

See how a ton of these are generic but also make logical sense and could easily be interesting when used well in a story?

JoshRaed 2023-07-26 05:07:07 UTC #6

I'm worried it might get too busy and might struggle to fit certain characters roles and storylines into it. Like the main team splits up into four different groups at the end of season 2, each one there to fight a different villain with a different role in this conflict, with there being like four sides to the war, none of which being objectively the right one.

Which parts of this story seem cliche? I kind of felt like the subversive elements were kind of barely a part of the plot, but I wasn't sure how to make them more relevant.

Like the whole evil chosen one trying to reject destiny so he doesn't do the evil thing, or the chosen one who's given up on life because he thinks the prophecy is inescapable and will be the thing that kills him, or the character who thinks he needs to be the chosen one but can't be and has to live with it, or the part where the whole narrative around the chosen one is purely propaganda and doesn't actually work like we thought it did, or the part where the prophecy is the result of an evil chaos god. These are all present, but it seems like they're just not as important as they could have been somehow.

JoshRaed 2023-07-26 05:28:00 UTC #7

What I meant was that the story has the main character get what they wanted the entire time towards the end, not at the start or midpoint.

Like Shrek getting to be alone in his swamp again, Cady taking down Regina George, or Zuko getting his fathers respect. Things like that. Dan Harmons story wheel frames that as a fundamental part of story structure, something which follows a character learning to adapt to their new environment and is followed by said character returning to what is familiar to them. Except Zuko didn't go back to hunting for Aang, Shrek didn't just go back to being alone and end the story there, and Cady didn't go back to Africa.

Most stories won't ever really have that kind of moment. Devil wears Prada has the main character get what she wants but by that point has learned that it's not what it's been cracked up to be, and rejects it in order to do the right thing. Aang

JoshRaed 2023-07-26 05:46:32 UTC #8

So...

Heiroe is told he's the chosen one by his king dad but he's not, SO he is left with a strained relationship with his sister and issues where he feels responsible for ever bad thing that happens and refuses to accept help ___ the world is suffering because of the dark lord and people are losing their homes, __ he finds real chosen one, named Nobody, SO he sneaks him on his hero quest in his team.

How do I fill in the blank and connect the plot beats there? There's no way to make these events follow each other chronologically using a SO or BUT, but these details can't possibly be irrelevant plot-wise. The world can't just NOT need saving, and the main characters can't just NOT meet.

HGohwell 2023-07-26 06:34:46 UTC #9

That's because no every story structure applies to every story. They're not one size fits all. One could argue that for example, Zuko returns to how he was before he got obsessed with finding the Avatar, but that's really not important because not every story will fit every structure. They fit whatever structure the writers used. These are also no templates and shouldn't be considered such. They're rough ideas based on trends and commonalities. And most of the examples you listed at the top do get what they want (basically all of them being some kind of save the world and return home) and pay for it (usually with a lot of lives).

As for your actual plot, a lot of this is going to end up dependant on what sort of vibe you're going for, how fast you want your pacing and, unfortunately, the executation. You need to look at lots of different story structures and stories and how they pull them off and work out what works best for you. Unfortuntely, or fortunately depending on you view, a lot of research for creating is looking at and studying other people's creations and trying to figure out what works and what doesn't. I find serious book reviews essays on youtube quite useful for this as they talk a lot about things like structure and pacing.

Assuming that the world suffering because of the dark lord isn't related to the what's happening with the king, that shouldn't be there. It might be where you're showing it in the plot, but it's world building, not an actual plot point. If anything I'd think that it's more like "the wold is suffering because of the dark lord and so the king tells his son..." unless that was for some other reason, but it seems logical to me that you want a chosen one, fake or otherwise, because of the dark lord, not the other way around.

JoshRaed 2023-07-26 07:00:05 UTC #10

I was just confused because a lot of people just show me the wheel with no context and then i’m like, “How is my protagonist supposed to pay a hefty price for bringing his boyfriend to a party?”

Thanks for clearing it up.

The thing is the main character has had this story in his head since before the dark lord was around, and in the present the dark lord is just a part of his life now.

I think the issue was counting the brief prologue backstory as a plot point. Like the stories real start is when he’s fighting the shadow creature, and his internal and external conflicts are established. So… how do I make the day in the life sequence fit together into the cause and effect plot stuff? In my experience the day in the life part of the story is mostly just things happening, things that don’t directly lead to each other.

Emmet in the lego movie gets up, then reads the instructions, then watches propaganda, then goes to work, then gets separated from the group. The first moment of “so” is that he meets wyldstyle but she leaves so he follows her. Before that it’s all “then” and “and” connectors.

Is it acceptable plotting? Or did I seriously miss something about the lego movie?

Lensing 2023-07-26 07:08:59 UTC #11

"Heiroe is told he's the chosen one by his king dad but he's not, "
How does he find out that he is not the chosen one?
Why does his dad think he is the chosen one?
Why does Heiroe want to be the chosen one?
Does he want to be the chosen one?
Does he think he is the chosen one?
Why does Heiroe want to save the world?
What does his sister have to do with saving the world or the story?

"Heiroe tries to take Nobody's powers but can't.
Electra helps him fake his powers."

Why?

HGohwell 2023-07-26 07:13:40 UTC #12

Ok, I think I get what you're struggling with there. For a start, Emmet probably has his own internal logic. The logic of what we do things doesn't always work in order, in fact it often works backwards. Plot overall should follow "action then consequence" but people tend to work in "preparation then action". Think about any human's morning routine, they are going to work so they do these things. Emmet does these things so he can go to work. But, those are also smaller scenes, not plot points. It would be much more accurate from a plot perspective to say Emmet was living a normal life until which is also perfectly valid. Therefore and so are not the only connections, but they make it clear that one thing is connected to another. A character brushing their teeth doesn't need to impact the plot, nor some greater reason to do so, but a character doing something like killing someone probably does.

JoshRaed 2023-07-26 07:27:37 UTC #13

Sorry, this was actually an outline for only me to read and I didn’t realize it was incomprehensible to someone without the ideas in their head.

He doesn’t realize it until some point in season two, spending half the series in denial. But he’s kind of known it for years ever since it became clear that his inability to use the chosen one’s powers was going to continue to be a problem in his life.

Because he thinks being important and of royal blood means his son is 100 percent going to be the magical savior of society.

It’s what has been impressed on him his whole life as who he is supposed to be.

Because his dad, who is a king and also kind of perceived as a Diety, told him he was his entire life, to the point that it largely defines who he is.

Because his whole life he’s been made to feel guilty for every bad thing that happens. Every new death to the war was one he could have prevented but didn’t. And he is encouraged by the rest of the world to see it that way.

She’s also saving the world, and is a spy for the rebellion against her dad the king. And their dynamic is a big part of his character development.

He tries because he genuinely thinks that Nobody having chosen one powers is a mistake.

Electra helps him fake his powers because she wants to put an end to the Dark Zone and the Chosen Wads is her way of doing it, so she’s helping him keep up the farce that he is the chosen one.

JoshRaed 2023-07-26 07:32:15 UTC #14

So is there a way to establish important things at the start in a way that follows a cause and effect like “Because of this thing, this other thing happened?” and is it okay if it doesn’t?

darthmongoose 2023-07-26 07:50:07 UTC #15

In Save the Cat! There's a bit of detail on this setup beat, where it's suggested you show the character's life, and illustrate what's lacking in it, by showing the protagonist at work, at rest and at play. Lego movie follows the beats of "Save the Cat!" very closely.

So rather than thinking of this setup as a bunch of scenes lacking a "therefore", it's better to think of it almost more like a montage showing Emmett's conformist life where he doesn't quite fit in.

HGohwell 2023-07-26 07:57:10 UTC #16

As a general rule, cause and effect keeps the story ground. Something that comes out of nowhere for no reason is generally considered a plot contrivance or deus ex machina. Worlds general work on cause and effect, logical consistency, you know? However, plot and narrative can be different. For instance, if you're telling a non-linear plot, it might not be presented as action then consequence. You might see the consequence before the action, but it will still have been an action then a consequence. In the same way prologues about who the world was created don't necessarily lead directly to the plot, but will have somehow affected it.

And again, it's things like overall plot structure more than scene to scene. Things like LOTR, the prolgoue doesn't directly lead to the next scene. It's not because the ring wasn't destroyed so we can have a party . It's because the ring was not destroyed, the ring is in Bilbo's possession so it can be passed on so it can be destroyed.

moontokkym 2023-07-26 08:26:23 UTC #17

"Most stories don't have that kind of a moment" They do. The reason it happens over and over again is because the price they pay for getting what they want will change what they want. It happens a lot, gaining importance until the final act where they're sure they want this thing and they get it.

For the "returning to what is familiar to them" it's similar to the return home in the hero's journey. It's used to highlight how far the character's come because back with a familiar élément you can contrast to see what's changed. Zuko does go back to the fire nation that's been his home for most of his life, but changes it for the better. Shrek goes back to the swamp with friends, etc...

I think instead of just looking at the craft tips you're given and questioning them on the surface, try understanding what those tips are getting at. Usually craft tips are giving you some slightly easier to grasp examples of using contrast to highlight change, creating conflict to get tension in the story, give readers a reason to feel something about your characters, etc...

The specifics of craft book structure will not apply to every story, but the spirit will, so you need to work to understand the spirit of the tip and apply it to your story.

To apply the therefore/but idea to what you've said you need to boil down to core motivations and essentials.

Heiroe is told a fundalental lie that his life has a purpose (presumably to kill Bad guy) by the king who he trusts

He mistrusts his family and other people generally and feels a loss of purpose. (Feeling bad for everything done wrong doesn't immediately track with feeling betrayed).

BUT

BIG BAD that he thought he was supposed to beat is making people suffer

He finds a new purpose in life to find the "real chosen one"

He has to learn to trust others because this is a task he can't do alone

While growing as a person he gains new friends and New values in his life and no longer feels guilt for not achieving the King's impossible standards

With the help of the team he finds the actual chosen one (what he wanted)

BUT

Chosen one doesn't want to do it? / Turns out Heiroe was rhe chosen one all along? / Finding the chosen one reawakens some jealousy or mental anguish from the King's betrayal? →MORE CONFLICT

The team have to find a way to convince the chosen one to come with them / get Heiroe to be good enough to fight big bad / get chosen one where he needs to go while dealing with Heiroe's emotional crisis

Etc etc ..

Side-note but IMO this seems like a parody name even when I read your first few pages... Especially as you've got a chosen one story which are very overused tropes therefore they're often used for laughs and genre satire. Like yeah he's the heir and the hero but it seems really on the nose, like if a secretly traitor character was called Liar McBad. The names of all the characters all come in to make the story feel really generic. I get some japanese anime do this but it's usually in a foreign language for the intended primary audience and also actually gags (Dragon ball comes to mind). Aang is not called "Saayvior" and Zuko isn't called "Firebad".

I accidentally hit send half way through don't mind me

Lensing 2023-07-26 08:37:09 UTC #18

I would simplify it and first try to focus on one character.
Heiroe or Nobody.
And tell the story from that perspective with minimum other characters
and then build the story from that.
And then write a summary of the story with understandable goals
with a plot that makes sense.

You can still add the other characters but I think you need a good
fundamental story that makes sense and works

NickRowler 2023-07-26 12:19:48 UTC #19

I think you are somewhat missing the deeper meaning of what the Lego Movie is about. The movie is told from the perspective of a child who is unhappy with his father’s strict rules. The song “Everything is Awesome” is a song a kid would sing to themselves while they play. Emmet is an extension of the child, and represents his struggle to play within the premade Lego sets his father set up. While Wyldstyle represents the concept of creativity and not worrying about strict structure when playing with Legos. A lot of this is paralleled with a “Chosen One” narrative but the story has more depth than that.

JoshRaed 2023-07-26 15:10:43 UTC #20

So the way it’s described it feels like this moment isn’t even something you make happen, it’s just something that probably will happen to your story anyway. Like how specifically do I use it to improve my story? It doesn’t seem like any of this stuff was stuff I even had to add because it seems to be all there somewhere.

Which parts of the story I described are the cliche parts?

JoshRaed 2023-07-26 15:11:44 UTC #21

I understand that stuff. I just don’t see how it relates to this conversation.

KevinReijnders 2023-07-26 17:11:09 UTC #22

There's a diference between a characters want and need. A want is what a character thinks they need, but generally a basic heroes journey will have a character evolve to the point where they realise they don't need their want and that's when they achieve their need.

Take the latest Puss in Boots movie. Goldilocks wants the wishing star to wish her family back. Everything she does is in purpose of that single goal, but in the end she realized she already had a family with the 3 bears. She needed to accept she already had what she wanted.

Same with Puss, he wanted more lives to he a courageous hero again, bu he needed to learn courage comes from facing fear, not the lack of it

JoshRaed 2023-07-26 17:13:15 UTC #23

I know that, and I don't see how it connects to what I said.