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Aug 2019

I really love vardo wagons!

I think there gorgeous and fanciful. I have a very minor character who is a fortune teller who lives in one and travels around as a nomad.

But I started Googling and it turns out these wagons are from a culture of people called the Romani who have faced very serious and horrible oppression. Apparently even the whole "fortune teller with fancy robes and a crystal ball" is a bit harmful.

I'd heard that cultural appropriation can be very neutral but it depends on the context. I know that Indian headdresses are offensive to wear if you're not Indian because they have very specific spiritual contexts. But what about these wagons? Can't it just be seen as a regular house on wheels? Maybe the fortuneteller thing is a bit much, but is simply having a caravan like this that a character travels/lives in offensive, or harmful so far as appropriation goes?

My story really wouldn't be affected if I changed this. It wouldn't be a big deal to change this, but if it wouldn't be a big deal couldn't I leave it as is? Any thoughts?

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    Aug '19
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    May '22
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I don't think you'll have much of a problem. As long as you're not making fun of the lifestyle, or denigrating people who follow the nomadic lifestyle, I don't see a problem occurring. Also, I remember there being a caravan of sorts in the movie Stardust (perhaps there was one in the book as well, but it's been a while since I read the book), and the witch who lives inside sells trinkets and travels. I don't think there was any backlash to that.

This39 is a picture from the movie. That's a vardo wagon or something similar, right?

If people asume the mere act of showing a minority`s lifestyle is offensive.......they are the ones demeaning said minority.

Go for it!, but make sure you research them tho....

I think too many people blow up small things these days. Reminds me of the girl that wore an Asian style dress to prom with matching hair and people wanted to crucify her for cultural appropriation. She was defended by the Asian community since she was being tasteful and showing her love for their culture. Some people will be offended no matter what.

offensive no, but they are often seen by very closed minded people.

Where I live in England Gypsy are not really respected by the main of society and quite a lot of people just think of them as dog stealing thieves. ( this is not my opinion so nobody start on me)
sadly the workmanship that goes into these wagons is often disregarded. personally I have always liked them.

Everything is offensive if you try to find it offensive hard enough. So the answer is yes, SOMEONE will find it offensive. I was called a racist once, because my aliens have literal white skin.

Just be sure that what you are depicting is not a mockery of a culture or actually is a stereotypical version of a real thing, and it would be fine in the eyes of sane people.

I have one too later in my comic, so if you have any problem we can make an alliance :grin:

My point of view is that when the concept of cultural appropriation starts impeding cultural exchange, appreciation of other cultures, understanding of other cultures etc., it is not acceptable and should not be considered.

As long as you don't associate these wagons with negatives or outrageously kitsch* stereotypes, there is no reason to get offended.. except if one can't tolerate culture mixes.

-* I personally don't mind the kitsch stereotypes on my culture but I can understand that when it's too often, it starts to be an actual prejudice.

I'd definitely refrain from using the word "gypsy", as the younger generations of Sinti and Roma reject this term. It was a slur used to demean their culture, after all, and which ultimately resulted in their genocide by the Third Reich.

If you otherwise research everything and represent their culture respectfully – some sensitivity readers might help as soon as you have something to show – then it should be all right, though. I don't think we have enough representation of Sinti and Roma. (And I'm sure there are other cultures, as well, but I'm just naming the ones I know in Europe.)

Ah yes, to add to that: incredibly harmful, in fact.

Not because there weren't fortune tellers. Or because being a fortune teller is in itself something to be looked down on. But because it's basically the only time we see Sinti and Roma AT ALL, which makes for a mental image where we tend to just... see them as these mystified people. Which they aren't.

As I said, do some more research on it – you're already in the middle of it anyway – and then make sure you're not delving too deep into stereotypes. The fortune teller is a stereotype. But perhaps you can subvert it?

I mean if your character is Romani or comes from a fantasy culture that matches a Romani culture then yes, you can do this. But, if your character is not and just wants to glamp it up in a cute mobile home, I wouldn't make it quite so Romani. Not because the wagon is spiritual or would have a sacred meaning, but because the wagon is something we see and immediately equate to a modern nomadic society that is severely oppressed. Like, there's still nomadic Roma today, not in wagons, but nomadic because they have to be.

So, if your character isn't actually oppressed then your reader would wonder--so why are they living in a wagon? And if this type of wagon shows up at all in the story people will think "what big event happened in this universe that lead to these people traveling in wagons for hundreds of years?" and if this a minor one-off character you may just see this wagon once and never touch on it again--leaving your readers hanging on a whole lot of world building that is just inferred. Like there's just so much meaning to this wagon that I wouldn't use it unless it already fits the context of your world in meaning.

And like it can be a great opportunity to talk about the poor and ignored that live in places your stories take place, it's just that if the character isn't actually poor and oppressed then...it would send mixed messages to a modern reader.

It depends on the intent.
It'd be racist to use it to mock a race of people.
It's also a little racist to call it a gypsy wagon as gypsy is racist term to describe Roma people; so just call it a Roma wagon from now on.
It also needs to be asked, are you appropriating gypsy wagons for your own use or are you using it as a narrative in your story?

Personally I feel if you want to do it then just do it.

People should be able to separate fact from fiction. I like the whole gypsy aesthetic type thing but I’m well aware that doesn’t reflect actual Roma people.

You’re not intending to offend or insult anybody, but it’s not your job to educate people on cultures either. I’ve seen people jump through hoops to portray a culture accurately and people still get offended.

When it comes to culture, research helps but you’re never gonna fully understand it just due to not being immersed in it. Therefore, you’re going to offend some people anyway.

I say play with the stereotype, use it, but make it more meaningful. Like have an eccentric gypsy type character, but have them be more than that - give them a personality. It doesn’t even have to be the opposite personality associated with the stereotype, the goal is to make them feel human and relatable.

That’s always the main issue with stereotypes I’ve seen - they’re often just stereotypes and nothing else. All sorts of types of people exist in the world, so I say show that - I’m sure someone somewhere is Roma and actually enjoys the gypsy stereotype aesthetically.

But eh, I got off topic - my bad. The wagon is cute and cool, I say use it. Show the beauty of it in your comic if you enjoy them so much. I’m fairly certain other types of people use wagons anyway.

Can we agree on not using the g-term from now on, since multiple people have commented on its nature as a slur? It's......... not too hard to avoid a word that is connected to genocide, I think. :sweat_drops:

Other than that, I don't think that "you're going to offend anyway" is a good argument against doing one's research.

No, people are not jumping through hoops to "search for" something that "offends" them. They are just given more room – finally – to voice their concerns. Things that are brought up nowadays have not suddenly become "offensive", they were always harmful, and we're just given the chance to learn from people who it concerns.

We should embrace that chance, rather than just looking at our own comfort. Especially when it concerns a group of people who face extinction because of stereotyping.

I think it is important to admit that there are extremists and counterproductive behaviour.

One personal eg. but just being on the net gives many a day: I got bullied on several websites into changing pseudonym because I was making music based on the maqam system when it's not the music system of my ethnicity (unsurprisingly, none of these bullies were from cultures using the maqam system; the worst I've ever heard from people using maqam system is that it would be impossible for me to completely master the improvisation aspect, which is a legitimate and totally acceptable concern!)

Yes, some people ARE searching for things to get offended by; they are very dangerous, and ESPECIALLY dangerous for the populations they are trying to protect (often in a very demeaning way) or to represent.

You can't be wrong with empathy & moderation, so that's what I'm going with

I'm fascinated and confused by the fact that the exact same word can be conceived so differently if I read it in English or Spanish. There is nothing wrong with saying "gitano" and many people are proud of their heritage and soon as it gets translated to "gypsy" the word is associated as a slur. Of course, there are obvious cases of discrimination against Giatanos but the word itself in Latin countries doesn't seem to evoke a reaction as strong as when you mention it in English, even when they are equivalent words and refer to the exact same people.

I don't know If I can explain myself properly. But my language is Spanish and I know lots of real life gypsies/gitanos that have no problem naming their children, restaurants or businesses with words that you would consider "stereotypes". There is a Galician/Spanish band that literally has a song named "You gypsy" about a fortune teller...
I honestly can't make a black and white statement and say "yes it is offensive".

As Diego said, sometimes the mere fact of showing any culture (despite the intent) triggers some people. But overall context matters and the more research you can make will help you to depict cultures in a way that is not openly offensive.

Definitely agree on people need to do their research and with more knowledge I believe that a level of respect will naturally happen.

People DO tend to jump on things too quickly nowadays though. For example, if someone has a character yelling a slur at another character that doesn't mean the author is condoning using that slur in the same manner yet people will get upset if they even see the word just being used. I can't speak for @racarter but I believe that's what they meant when they said that.

Also, context matters a lot for if a word "is okay" to be used or not. Generally, in civil or educational discourses, I see no problem with using these words as long as they are done so in a neutrally respectful manner, if that makes sense. For example, the g-word being used here is not being done so in a harmful way, but in a manner of discussion. If it's the appropriate word to use to make the point, then the word should be used.

To note on the 'G word' usage.
I've seen many an episode of 'Big Fat Gypsy Weddings', a British series, and they seem to use the term quite freely to describe themselves. Of course they do use Romanischal and Traveller to describe their respective lineages more specifically.
Similarly with the American spinoff 'My Big Fat American Gypsy Wedding', several of the individuals featured use the G-word to refer to themselves. They also use Traveller and Romani respectively.

Of course I'd take any 'reality' show with a grain of salt, and there was some controversy with the British production as some Romani stated that what was aired did not accurately represent Romani life. But overall I saw enough individuals to tell me not all people of Romani/Traveller/etc. descent are offended by the G term.

Personally, I would try to avoid using the G term in casual dialogue. I'd rather use the specifics like Romani or Traveller. I see it much the same as the term 'queer'. Those who are a part of the community can use it all they want, I can't police that, and if they make the term an established part of a title, like "Queer Eye", I won't dance around it and I'll say it as they intended.

Well here are some gitanos who openly use gypsy in their band name.

Disagree. People are out there looking to be offended because they like being angry and like blaming other people for their anger, or problems, so they don’t have to fix themselves and their own issues. I’ve known numerous people like this even before the internet, it’s just gotten worse. It’s less “you’re going to offend” and more “people are going to be offended”. Unless there’s obvious malice involved, I either chalk it up to misunderstandings or someone looking to get offended.

That said I’m actually all for doing research, I particularly enjoy it myself. I encourage it as well. I just don’t think you should be a stickler about it. A lot of the research I do conflicts with what I want to do plot wise so I willfully disregard it in the same manner Supernatural disregards Abrahamic canon to a down right blasphemous extent, but at the same time uses it for inspiration.

My ultimate point was content creators owe you nothing, including doing research. People are going to get offended no matter what you do because there’s a vast amount of people in the world and you can’t please them all. That and some people like being mad.

@Cavechan Yeah that’s part of it. Reminds me of all that Attack on Titan wank that’s still going around, people thinking it’s pro-Nazi or some shit when it’s so painfully obvious it’s not that at all.

Ah well, I’m bored with this subject. In the end people just do what they do.

Wagons are cool. Use the wagons. Have a whole caravan of beautiful wagons. Lol

You biggest issue is to NOT use the G word. I think the wagon should be fine. The fortune telling aspect is also iffy but people have already better explained that than me.

For sure, do not use that word. My Oma was half Romani and she hated hearing that word, it was one of the few words that would upset / hurt her as she grew up in Germany during a time when the Germans where actively targeting the Romani people.

I can't really give you any more grounded info than that, cause it was a culture I did not grow up in (Oma was forced to hide this information when she married Opa, so we (her children and grandchildren) did not know until she was on her death bed and confessed). I just know that word was similar to the N-word for her, and she was often confused/hurt on why American would media throw it around so casually, in cartoons and children's media especially.