Ask a Teacher things!

irene_addler 2019-08-18 18:00:54 UTC #21

My parents are both teachers, and have been for basically all my life, so I just want you to know how much you're appreciated! I know all the hard work it takes to be a teacher, and all the crap you all have to deal with. You are appreciated, and thanks for being great!

Rodimus13 2019-08-18 18:02:24 UTC #22

Awww thank you! That's really appreciated.

Jenny-Toons 2019-08-18 18:15:02 UTC #23

@Rodimus13 Adding onto what Rodimus said, there is also the fact that a lot of family dynamics just can't make homeschooling possible. As I noted growing up, a lot of my peers lived in single-parent households where their mother and father had to work long hours while they were in school. Again, they didn't have the money or the family to make homeschooling possible, so they needed to attend public school.

Moreover, to add to the need of having an education degree -- it's not just about the subject. It's the ability to actually teach students who may or may not be within your age group or your general background. Sure, you can excel at the subject you're teaching in, but if you can't teach it to your students, especially students who don't have your background, then you're not really a helpful teacher. They'll end up going to someone else who can explain it better. Being a teacher requires being able to adapt, having some type of people skills, and knowing how to frame the process in a way that can help most, if not all, of your students. Just excelling in a subject like math or art or English doesn't mean you can teach it. And if you haven't had the experience at least once teaching a class, you can't assume that you'll be able to handle it with just your subject knowledge alone.

May not be majoring in education, but it is my family history, so I got a lot of respect for professors, teachers, and any type of mentor.

SleepingPoppy 2019-08-18 18:28:37 UTC #24

So your opinion is that the act of getting a liscense makes them worse teachers? I have to agree with the others, this is more to do with environment and socioeconomic status. Frankly, even in group home schooling the ratio of teacher to student is less than public school. Consider that in secondary education the teacher probably has over a hundred students over the course of the day.

If a person without a credential but with potential wants to be a teacher, they should seek credentialling? It won't magically sap their potential. And, as already brought up, even if one is an expert in their subject matter, they are not necessarily good at teaching it. Otherwise they can still seek other teaching opportunities which do not require the same schooling.

Rodimus13 2019-08-18 18:47:03 UTC #25

Average is 150 in mid size districts. For those that care.

fifthpaw 2019-08-18 18:47:21 UTC #26

I do agree the one on one does help. But like I said, schools that have the same or even higher ratios still out perform and it's not just charter and private school. Many east asian countries such as Japan's public schools value the higher number of student to low teachers because it's more efficient. Plus I've seen many public schools use suspensions to increase their numbers to create a calmer learning environment.

2 & 3. Your points number 2 & 3 supports my argument. The professionals they go to are most of the time, not teachers. A whole industry got created to bring working professionals that don't have teaching degrees to teach kids as their side gig.

4) Homeschooling only available to the well off is kind of true and not true. So I'll give you that. But the only reason homeschooling and other alternatives exist is because students often don't preform well in a public school and the parent will become frustrated with public school and give up. Also that thing about public schools can't turn anyone away at all is not true. Again, many public schools use suspensions to increase their numbers too.

5) The parents may be grading their kids but so is everybody else. The SAT, ACT, and other tests aren't in control of the parents yet the kids do better.

Ian Mikardo High School, equivalent to a charter school in the US, doesn't turn down anybody. They accept the trouble students, teachers with no teaching degree (they even hired a racist and murderer to help teach), seems to prove without a doubt a teaching licence really isn't needed.

fifthpaw 2019-08-18 18:50:27 UTC #27

See east asian counties and their ratio and they still kick americ'as butt at teaching.

fifthpaw 2019-08-18 18:56:18 UTC #28

That's my point.

An overwhelming number of people that have those qualities aren't allowed to teach because no license.

Rodimus13 2019-08-18 19:00:10 UTC #29

Please keep in mind that Japan is a completely different culture than US and use different techniques and also have, trained professionals, you are still comparing things that aren't quiet the same. Same for Ian Mikardo High School which is a school in the UK. You are also picking countries that routinely out preform the United States in education. As for your professional homeschool tutor point? A lot of those places in the US prefer to hire retired teachers or people with teacher certs that are tired of being in the classroom. How do I know? When I was still looking for work that was one of my side hustles to pay the bills.

There are now one year alternative certification programs in most states now that train people in the rest of the skills they need for far less than normal. Just a note.

At this point @fifthpaw you seem to be attempting to start an argument or try to annoy people. I understand that may not be your attempt but I'd like to keep this thread open for those that have other questions. So i will not be answering your questions on this point any further. If you have other questions, I will answer them as best as I am able from a US standpoint.

TJSchongar 2019-08-18 19:12:48 UTC #30

I’d really be interested in seeing some of the sources for your claims. Particularly concerning how non-teachers out perform as educators compared to licensed educators. Because frankly, nothing that I have seen supports this.

Also, the idea that the US has an absolutely abysmal education system compared to other countries - we have our failings, absolutely. Some of them are absolutely maddening. But many of the statistics that are used to make the claim that we are SO FAR BEHIND are based on the fact that we test ALL our students and collect data on ALL levels. We appear further behind because we have a wider spectrum, from those who are highly academically gifted to those who are absolutely not. Other countries do not test in the same way or the same groups, so there is no level of reliable standardization.

fifthpaw 2019-08-18 19:14:41 UTC #31

I'm not trying to annoy people. I'm still trying to understand why a licence is necessary. And the

isn't a valid argument? Is it because these countries are winning? I don't understand.

Isn't something to learn from and try to imitate? I don't understand the logic here.

It seems to me you're being dismissive and perpetuating the teachers don't listen. Something a bad teacher does because I still don't understand. Trust me when I say, students know teachers don't listen to them.

Boyinband's alternative to traditional teachers and school for anybody interested.

Jenny-Toons 2019-08-18 19:24:20 UTC #32

Because there has to be a standard.

As you noted, there are schools who will take in anyone -- teaching degree or not. You even mentioned someone being hired who was a murderer. I don't know about you, but that does not sound like a school I'd want my kid to be in.

A teaching license, along with things like background checks and similar, ensures that there is a standard. Education is a practice, and you have to follow the same rules for that practice like everyone else.

It's the same as engineering and astronomy. Just because you know your engineering or your astronomy well doesn't mean you can automatically be hired on as an engineer or an astronaut. You have to go through the practice of getting certified to do these things.For engineering, you have to pass tests like the IEEE exam. For being an astronaut, you have to have a Bachelor's in engineering, biological science, or a few other STEM majors, along with passing NASA's physical exam.

The same is applied with wanting to be an teacher. Moreover, it's not just about teaching the subject. When you are a teacher, for the few hours you have those students, you are responsible for them (especially in high school and grade school). The Board just can't hire anyone who knows their stuff because they still have to be trustworthy enough to work with minors; again with the murderer example -- why would I, as a parent, trust a school who would hire anyone just because they might be good at math or science? Them knowing the subject does not negate their actions, and it wouldn't make me feel safer about my kid being around them.

Of course, there are people who pass the standard and are still not eligible to be a teacher. At the same time, we still have systems in place to get them away from the students. My high school had a sports coach who turned out to be a predator and preyed on one of the freshman girls. The school had checked his records beforehand and there was never a case of sexual deviancy. They still fired him, still sued him and supported that student. He was skilled in sports and knew his stuff, but that did not negate the fact that he preyed on a student.

The system and practice is there to make sure we have people who can be trusted with students. And if they can't be, we make sure they're not around them anymore. This is more manageable than allowing anyone off the street to come on board just because they know a subject. Because when we do this, we are basically saying that we don't care about the safety or health of our students. We forgo responsibility towards them.

Sure, they know their stuff, but are they going to be a good teacher? Will they actually help develop a student's growth and not stunt it.

I also ask this -- would you say that we shouldn't have standards on who we allow mandate our FDA policies? Our Drug Regulations? Would you say the same for law enforcement or emergency specialists? Just like teachers, they still need certifications for their practices. They still need to go through the proceedings to make sure they are trustworthy.

SleepingPoppy 2019-08-18 19:25:56 UTC #33

Lots of countries have better education systems than the US, I thought your point was about whether or not teachers should be liscense? The education system varies between the different Asian countries, and I'm only familiar with a couple. But do I think there are countries with superior education systems to America? Yes, yes I do.

One reason for this is that as a culture many countries treat teachers with more respect, and this changes the expectation of students. It's also not uncommon for the teacher to teach a larger number of students for a more limited period if time, resulting in more paid time to lesson plan and collaborate with peers (I forget which specific country this was, but this is first hand from an international educator).

TJSchongar 2019-08-18 19:31:56 UTC #34

You aren't trying to understand why a license is necessary. You just keep insisting that one isn't necessary. A license is necessary because teachers are public figures. The license represents so much more than knowing your material. It shows you have accepted the legal repercussions of every one of your words and actions when interacting with strangers' children. It shows you can be trusted to not take advantage of your power. It shows you've gone through the necessary training to cater to the behavioral, mental, and emotional needs of a wide range of students. It is the piece of paper that shows you have done the work to jump through the hoops of education and can adapt to each child that walks through your door.

Some people have earned that license better than others, just like some doctors are more competent than others and some lawyers are more ethical than others. The license is still necessary for all three professions, because it holds them to a standard for public service. And the people who home school? They took it up because they were competent and they had the skills - but we NEED licensed teachers because comparatively few people have the skills, competence, or even time.

As for the video by Boyinaband? I happen to agree with most of his points. But frankly, that video does not support the argument that licenses are not necessary or that other countries are significantly better at educating their youth. If anything, his video brings to light that ALL countries need to be more attentive to social and emotional development ' because I can find plenty of standardized statistics on the suicide rates of Asian students between the ages of 12 and 17 due to academic pressure.

SleepingPoppy 2019-08-18 19:38:23 UTC #35

You are a stranger on the internet, not her student.

fifthpaw 2019-08-18 19:38:47 UTC #36

You wanted sources so here you go.

The ultimate non-teacher licence because because unschooling is the student teaching themselves. That was the point of the video. The teachers are only there to point them in the right direction. Overall, 83 percent of the respondents had gone on to pursue some form of higher education. Compare that to public school.

fifthpaw 2019-08-18 19:48:47 UTC #37

Yes, my point is about teachers should or should not be licensed. That's why I brought the topic of schools with unlienced teachers teaching in other countries like in Ian Mikardo.

But why is the respect different in the first place? You say culture is to blame but that culture begins somewhere and it can change. Just like with Ian Mikardo, the culture changed. To blame culture is to same it's a fundamental problem that is unsolvable.

I might be some stranger on the internet, but to offer answers and not follow through is what a typical teacher does.

yansusu 2019-08-18 19:52:19 UTC #38

I'm sorry to barge in the ongoing discussion but I'd like to add a question of my own (and I'm afraid I'll forget about it >.< But you can totally ignore me until you've figured the other stuff out!). Coincidentally, I was talking with somebody about education today and there was one task I was wondering about from my own time back in school.
Where I live students are required to memorize and recite poems in several grades. In my own school, the ones in elementary school were given while in the one after that (I'm sorry, I don't know what that corresponds to in US-terms but it's grade 7+ here) students could choose among a set of given poems according to their preference.
Is that the same in the US? I mean is memorizing and reciting poems a thing? And if yes, what are the students actually supposed to learn through that?

From my own experience, I remember that we didn't get any feedback for the ones in elementary school other than a grade and were never taught about how to emphasize words or lines or whatever (which I would have thought might be a reason to do such a task?). The only feedback I got in the school following elementary was that I "chose the wrong poem" which I don't understand to this day because it was the only one of the set that spoke to me in any manner so I thought I couldn't go wrong with that. (If somebody can answer how that is judged, I'd love to hear too )

Btw I'm from Germany so if this isn't a thing in the US and someone from Germany is reading this too, I'd also love to hear from them (students too because maybe this was something only we did?)

SleepingPoppy 2019-08-18 19:57:42 UTC #39

I didn't blame culture, I cited it as a reason something worked better in a specific place. I absolutely think America should value its teachers at a higher level, but yes, changing culture is difficult, and it will take a lot of work. Why would you assume I'm against that change? I think there are many ways our education system should be changed and improved, I just think that whether or not a teacher is liscense is at the bottom of the list if problems.

personally I think you're derailing the topic- why do t you make your own thread instead? It is a broad and complex topic, it deserves its own thread where people can focus on that. And that way people who want to ask a variety of questions here are not drowned out. ^^

TJSchongar 2019-08-18 19:58:06 UTC #40

Please note at the end of the article:
"A major limitation of this study, of course, is that the participants are a self-selected sample, not a random sample, of grown unschoolers. As already noted, relatively few men responded to the survey. A bigger problem is that the sample may disproportionately represent those who are most pleased with their unschooling experiences and their subsequent lives. Indeed, it seems quite likely that those who are more pleased about their lives would be more eager to share their experiences, and therefore more likely to respond to the survey, than those who are less pleased. >> Therefore, this study, by itself, cannot be a basis for strong claims about the experiences and feelings of the whole population of unschoolers."<<

This study is fascinating, and offers good points to reflect on, but with a self selected sample of under 300, it is not enough to sustain your argument. It doesn't even compare those success rates to a control.

Students being able to take control of their own education is crucial. No teacher, no matter what credentials they have, can force someone to learn against their will, after all. But this doesn't begin to address the importance of having a license when dealing with the private information of a student who has learning challenges, unruly groups of kids, or knowing how to cope with students who are below the poverty line.