Can anyone explain the disconnect between manga and webcomic readers

keii4ii 2019-03-31 17:56:05 UTC #7

There is also this factor: the shounen magazines have been around for much longer than webcomics. So people already have an established go-to for their shounen fix. Shounen style webcomics are essentially competing against super giants in that field.

Shoujo manga... let's face it, on average, they're not as well known as shounen stuff.

This factor is more prominent when you look at superhero comics. People already know where to go for that. Superhero webcomics that enjoy success seem to be the ones doing something different, focusing on something other than just costumed fighters duking it out.

Korea LOVES tragic fiction. I grew up there, and when I came to the US, the idea of people not liking a story "because it's sad" was completely new and bizarre to me.

HGohwell 2019-03-31 18:19:32 UTC #8

There's also the idea that's slowly being phases out that they're aimed at different audiences. It's not uncommon for shonen in particular to also be attract an older demographic and is produced with that in mind. However often, when it comes over it's often marketed towards kids. Think about how shonen anime is generally imported and dubbed for kids channels while if you watch the originals it's often obvious they weren't talking down to their audience and were aware they'd have an older audience as well. Many shonen inspired webcomics I've read lean towards dubbed shonen.

And quickly on shoujo vs romance, it was huge and seems to have tailed off recently but think about the success of things like Ouran High Schol Host Club and Vampire Knight and of course the slew of idol games/anime like UtaPri and similar, and more recently, the fantastic Kiss Him Not Me. Along with things that sort of fit both like the magical girl genre.

Seinen is more complicated because a lot of webcomics are what I'd consider seinen, especially on Tapas. They're aimed at an older audience and can span all across genres. Does a webcomics deal with more complex moral issues, feature a lot of more serious plots, more inclusive LGBT themes even if not outright stated, quite a few anti heroes, more realistic action and more sexualised content beyond a few pantieshots and fanservice? Those sort of things are very often indicative of seinen and are very comment in a lot of long form, plot driven webcomics. Seinen basically just means aimed at a more mature audience, after all, and if far more likely to have a mixed gender demographic than classic shoujo and shonen. This seems like what a lot of webcomics are aiming for since most are created by creators who are adults and assume most people reading them are at least young adults.

Kelheor 2019-03-31 19:21:51 UTC #9

I can only reply for myself, so my answer will be the quality. Most manga is just much better than most webcomics.
I admit that I could be a little biased, after all I read manga for 15 years now, mostly seinen and shounen. I read webtoons and manhwa rarely, the main problem is that they mostly are quite boring to read. I'm not sure if the problem is with with the scrolling format, which you can scroll for 10 minutes and still nothing is going on?.. maybe it isn't, but I think that's a part of the problem at least for me, I do not like it at all. Also, there are lots of awfully similar frames with faces close ups and nothing else. But maybe I haven't read more good webcomics, I don't know.
All these may not be a problem for romance, you don't care much about action and interesting shots in romance. A girl's face, a boy's face, kissing faces (yet, I still think manga is better here too). But then you have shounen/seinen with great art quality and there you have action, drama, fighting, you can almost feel what is going on on these pages with your own skin... which most of the webcomics just can't do right and I've only found a few which I really liked so far. But I'm also very picky with my art preferences, most people probably aren't.
Now, I should say that I haven't read many webcomics and if someone could show me some good shounen/seinen webcomics to read, I'll gladly follow the advice and go read them

IdiotWithPencil 2019-03-31 21:33:06 UTC #10

from those that I read and are worth any time there's: Solo leveling, the last human and the god of high school (Maybe) also the moon lightsculpter but they changed the artist so it went from cool to generic for me =/

those are the only shounen battle webcomics I can name from the top of my head =) happy reading

Kelheor 2019-03-31 21:36:28 UTC #11

Oh, thanks so much, will check them out!

IdiotWithPencil 2019-03-31 21:36:33 UTC #12

I still haven't found the first bartender or 21st century boy level webcomics, comics that talk about adult life/topics or an adult level plot, outside the "Lol adulting is hard" maybe Darby but that was more gore/nature documentary from what I read (which wasn't very much)

I would love some suggestions since I do love me some adult themes and stories

HGohwell 2019-03-31 22:07:00 UTC #13

I wouldn't know about plots about "adult life", (which tbh sounds like you're just looking for grown up slice of life, which would generally fall more under josei in my mind but since I haven't read the ones you're talking about I can't actually say) so perphaps someone else can help more with some more mature webcomics that deal with adult life. I fall more onto the side of things like tend to lean more the the action side of the genres.

But as I said, as long as it's aimed a more mature audience, it's generally seinen (when it's not jousei) since that runs the gauntlet from moe and bishoujo to dark action and mystery thrillers to wish fulfillment comedy. However, as I said I'd consider most the long form plot driven comics on here to fall into that sort of category.

And for anyone wondering, Death Note, as mentioned above, falls under the often mistaken for seinen category on TVTropes, but it really does run the gauntlet of all cateogries. But it's really not about content, it's about intended audience and since most the comics on here are aimed at a young adult audience, that would make them seinen or jousei.

IdiotWithPencil 2019-03-31 22:36:53 UTC #14

well bartender is a slice of life senine manga but not in any romantic sense and more of the general life of an adult, there are stories that run from parents reconciling with their adult children, to dealing with the recent death of a loved one and the problems of being a politician or corporate head, all the while learning about various histories of cocktails and liquors, its a very relaxing an enjoyable read =)

while 21st-century boys is a mystery thriller, it's more grounded in political power and reality than let's say death note, though something is pretty crazy, but that's mostly cause they jump 20 years into the future at some points. it's a great read.

both are stories I highly recommend if you have the time =)

I would classify that as shounen since, while yes it does delve into darker subjects and philosophy that other shounen doesn't it still has an air of juvenile wish fulfillment that resonates with younger children, from both Light and L, it's like first persons intro to deeper stories. but that's just me

beta1042 2019-04-01 03:09:52 UTC #15

Can I second Solo leveling? I really am enjoying this webcomic.

ble 2019-04-01 03:11:37 UTC #16

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bakasama25 2019-04-01 03:33:13 UTC #17

Marvel not doing LGBT romance? They actually did try that something like America Chavez but it just awful.

ble 2019-04-01 03:36:34 UTC #18

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bakasama25 2019-04-01 04:56:57 UTC #19

The thing is the writers and creators for the Marvel comics were criticized as "tumblr" hires that really didn't know how to write for comics and didn't have a love for the medium. They maybe pro LGBT but the books turned bad.

JackOfArtAndProse 2019-04-01 06:59:49 UTC #20

I wish to argue that rather than either manga or webcomics being superior, one should consider what the strengths of each medium are.

Webcomics allow for deeper emotions(we're not speaking of emotional impact here, but of quality and variance) due to their slower pace. Webcomic readers tend to feel more immersed, as the slower pace allows the readers to "linger" in the scenes longer. Fight scenes can work in webcomics, too, as it all depends on how you array the panels and how you utilize the format. That said, the said fight scenes would be slower-paved than almost any fight scene in a manga, no question about that.

Manga allows for strong emotional moments(how many times have we cried when we happened upon a particularily emotional scene) and perhaps(emphasis on perhaps, as your mileage will vary) the best action that comics have to offer. This all does come at the cost of it all being over perhaps too quickly, as the manga format tends to have breakneck pacing because of how its panelling works. However, this same flaw allows for manga stories to unfold much faster and allows mangakas to tell epic narratives through their art...

As you folk can see so, this isn't simply a question of listing pros and cons, seeing as even the flaws inherent to each format can be utilized to become a strength. I think that when manga readers hate on webtoons, it's because of their slow pacing. Likewise, Webcomic readers might feel that manga(as a format) is too "shallow" in terms of emotional variance.

I will have to state at the end of my arguments, however, that they're very much coloured by my own perceptions. Regardless, I'd like to hear your thoughts on manga and webcomics.

baasinsimple 2019-04-02 03:13:59 UTC #21

Well, God I'm gonna be honest with you, the Vertical Scrolling really just KILLS it for me when it comes to fight scenes you know how much of a ripe pain in the ass that is for some people to read on phone? I have bad joints in my fingers so there's that.

With One Piece or Akira I can enjoy some solid panel composition and if I'm pirating I only have to tap the thing to get to the next page or swipe left or right. I'm also enjoying some gosh dang beautiful composition that keeps your eyes flowing from panel to panel using every sense of visual trickery you can think of unlike vertical scrolling where I just have to look down and scroll for anywhere between 5 seconds to nearly half a minute, overall I find it to be much more creative and a more beneficial experience. It can be more entertaining in the smallest of ways. Manga has a required technique for panel composition that's just more complex than a Webtoon's. It has much more depth and more room for creativity so I find it more fun when people do it correctly. It becomes a concept that, while you're learning is high risk yet high reward, and once you master it a Manga can be carried by it's new and interesting composition. Sometimes panels are not meant to linger so you can use typical compositions and when they are that's why some mangaka dedicate a spread or a full page to it. I personally think that if you compose a page in just the right way, it can be just as effective as a webtoon. While if a webtoon has panels shoved closer together I find more harsh on the eyes.

But in the end I am a Action artist that has grown with manga all my life. Webtoon does indeed have it's strengths and own writing cliches. Just like manga, I haven't found a Webtoon more fun and creative than One Piece, nearly as creatively brutal as kingdom, Mysterious and interesting like 20th century boys, As completely complex and dramatic as Vinland Saga or as completely fucking terrifying as anything by Junji Ito in the last 15 years or as completely dread-inducing as Monster, or anything as completely touching as the stories told by authentic gay mangaka that anything BL pales in comparison towards. Except for things by Junha Kim, Youngchan Hwang and Uru-Chan (but I don't even know if that last one counts).

IdiotWithPencil 2019-04-02 04:56:53 UTC #22

dude, you got the bar so high that even Bob Marley is telling it to chill XD, there's barely a manga/comic out there that could compete with even one of the titles you just mentioned, hell even Stan Lee, may God rest his soul, would have a hard battle against those heavy hitters X'P.

while I think it's a bit unfair to compare a generally new medium that's not clocked in even 20 years in existence to one that's at least pushing 100, I do agree that the paneling and storytelling techniques of mangas/comics are of higher standard for the format, but in webtoons defense their barely in the newspaper age of comics, people haven't had a chance to experiment enough to create the great techniques yet.

though if you want to read the best battles stories, In My Humble Opinions, that webtoons have to offer, try these 2 titles out:

Red Storm & Peerless Father, both from the same author and both are pretty great in fights and stories in my opinion there the best in these fields (even better than God of high and Solo leveling I would say).

now I wouldn't call them One piece or Berserk level of quality but they do come close to new wave breaker or My hero Aca at the very least

JackOfArtAndProse 2019-04-02 05:02:27 UTC #23

I think that the most interesting weakness that was pointed out about webcomics was its panelling, and I certainly agree. Now I'm very much pumped to research how panelling is done in some of he top-level webcomics out there, eespecially the ones with dynamic panels as opposed to standard ones. I think that "Witch's Throne", in particular, does a nice job of this.

Gotta research, research~~

baasinsimple 2019-04-02 11:05:47 UTC #24

I mean, if my standards are too high, to the point where I can't expect anything to be that good, it sounds like to me that the idea of Webtoon itself sounds like a bit of a waste at the current standpoint and that idea itself is probably a reason why manga readers don't bother with Webtoon.

A long time investment that can get better with age, sure. But good story telling is good story telling and I think it should be expected for there to be at least a couple things that good in every genre. I'm actually genuinely surprised that someone conceded that there wasn't anything that good that has come out that is immediately popular. Honestly the closest popular things I found are using overdone tropes from late 90s shounen, so after every spot of drama there's an uninspired power system, poor cast management etc.

IdiotWithPencil 2019-04-02 13:09:30 UTC #25

Well I can't speak for the whole medium since I haven't read all there is too read, and I'm bias since I read manga a whole lot more than anything else, so maybe there are a Webtoons that are comparable. Haven't found them but it's like finding diamonds, you got to look hard and get a lot of coal, rubies, and emralds out of the way first. It's hard and rare but that's what makes them diamonds.

still, a good story is a good story and webtoons do have some good battle stories out there to read =P, it's like what Roger Egbert said about video games, "they aren't art" but that stop stopped people enjoying or talking about videogames as an art form.

graveweaver 2019-04-02 19:01:47 UTC #26

Some statistics.

Count of Manga on My Anime List: 40,000+ (unable to get exact number) - All these manga are of professional level enough to be included in the database.
Count of Manga serialized in a magazine: 1760+ - All these manga have an editor, most have assistants, and are generally get screened for plot and art quality.

Count of total Webtoons as Featured/Premium (to meet the professional standard above)
300 on Webtoons
240 on Tapas
102 on Lezhin
Cannot get a good count on webcomicsapp
I'm sure there's some more on some other sites.

Total amount of webtoons I think is not a good metric (its 52k+ btw) because many of these series are very very messy, no editing, no quality screening, and a chunk of people use the Webtoons/Tapas database as art galleries, to upload their favorite tokyo ghoul fanart, diaries, or placeholders. Many of these Webtoons in discover never moved past 1-4 panels in chapter one.

Anyway, you can see that overall there is far less Webtoon-format content that receives professional editor attention than there is Manga. Manga has been around for so so long, and Webtoons in my honest opinion has only picked up in the west in the past 2 years.

It's important to also realize the cultural lens you're looking through. Here in the west, manga and webcomic readers ARE disconnected. But in Korea, where Webtoons were popularized (and this has like 10 years of influence under its belt), Webtoons are THE thing. And many Webtoons readers also read manga.

But also Noblesse is ranked #76 in popularity on myanimelist so I don't think the disconnect is as great as it might seem at first glance.

I do not think the format is a detriment to action-focused scenes. I just think we have yet to see a Webtoon that pulls this off successfully. The medium is not nearly as restricting as others make it out to be, literally all it is is the panels are stacked vertically. A lot of webtoon artists choose to spread out their panels waaaay far, but there's no reason they can't be squished together during more action-focused scenes. Just no one has successfully executed it yet.

Rather than seeing it as a disconnect, I think this should be seen as an opportunity. There is a distinct lack of "bridge" series' from manga to Webtoon. Use that niche to your advantage. I personally made a manga-inspired webtoon (with action!), and got a huge subscriber base near-immediately because people WANT to see this kind of content. Webtoons is honestly in it's infancy and now is the time to hop on and carve yourself into the medium.