Destiny is overrated

[DokiDokiTsuna]

I've finally started reading manga again! ^^ The experience is so different now that I'm older; I see everything much more analytically, and I find myself thinking about the authors' strengths and weaknesses and tendencies along with the stories themselves...but that's not really the point. ^^; The point is, this plot point I came across in one of the manga I've been reading recently:

So there's this group of characters who become great friends. Most of the plot so far has been about building those friendships; taking characters who started out trying to use each other to gain information and climb the social ladder, and having them slowly discover how much they genuinely like being together, and start putting effort into maintaining their relationships and helping each other.
It's honestly been beautiful to watch this taking shape. ^^ I think, of all the MC friend groups I've seen in fiction, this is one of the sweetest and most believable.

And then, in a recent chapter...it's revealed that they all used to know each other in their previous lives. Not only that, but they were all already FRIENDS in those previous lives, enjoying relationships that we DON'T get to see built up over time.

And it's just so...disappointing, in a way. =/

I dunno, I just liked being able to think that, against all odds, despite their different personalities and outlooks on life, and the abusive conditions they were made to live in, they found common ground and decided to trust in each other, and THAT'S why they became friends. Not because it was 'inevitable', or because their subconscious memories of each other drew them together.

One of the biggest themes of the story is being influenced by the people around you; using your desire to protect or impress or imitate other people to become a better person yourself. And I think the story would be stronger if they let the characters' current friendships stand alone, because they are a bright, shining example of this theme. At least, they were, before they were tainted by 'destiny'...

And just in general, I feel like writers lean on 'destiny' too much. The hero of an adventure story is chosen outright by prophecy, or they eventually find out that their parents or ancestors were similar heroes, or at least similarly "special", which of course means they were always meant to be the person they are now (* cough * RISE OF SKYWALKER * cough *).
And the MCs of romance stories 'feel like they've met somewhere before', and it's eventually revealed that they had a chance encounter when they were children, which of course means that they were always meant to be together, even before they understood what love was (tbh I'm a sucker for this trope, but I still think it's not always necessary ^^; ).

Things don't have to be pre-determined to be valid; your life (and thus, a character's life) doesn't need to directly reference its foundation in order to play out 'correctly'.
I think an individual choice born from unique circumstances can be a beautiful, powerful thing. To be able to decide for yourself that you want something that no one ever told you to want, or that everyone has explicitly told you NOT to want...to learn to love something or someone without any outside influence pushing you towards it, propelled solely by your own desire-- that's amazing. And it really deserves to be spotlighted in stories more often.

[Aleksei]

I agree that destiny is overused, but I don't disregard it as a tool for writing.
If its used only as god ex machina, destiny has no meaning at all, but there is so much to see about destiny. You can fight, it, you can deny it, you can prove it false, etc.
Just an example from this, I love this exchange between Lucifer the Morningstar and Destiny of the Endless. It appeared on Lucifer vol 1 #52, and that whole volume of Lucifer debated between destiny and free will (by writer Mikey Carey), so to Lucifer to be in presence of Destiny was very distressing -enough to act, something that he usually avoided, and then we see the result and have to think: Does Lucifer act on his own free will, or by the wims of God and his destiny? (Lucifer burned Destiny's book, so he can't see the future, negating 'destiny', but he already knew this was going to happen, and on the ashes are the answer that Lucifer went searchin, the name of his enemy and where to go) -And that in itself is a very good way to use destiny as a plot. Its not 'god ex machina', but the whole volume goes against that concept, even when you find it time after time, after time.

[powerplantanimations]

I think I need to read the story in order to get a full context, because the author may be trying to say something.

But honestly, I don't agree that destiny is overrated (coming from someone who believes in prophecy, destiny, "things happen for a reason"). In fact, there's so much you can do with it. It's probably the biggest theme across all my stories.

For example; how God plays with obstacles and how He has contingencies for His children to be free, this cult figure attempting to create their own prophecy Dune-style only for it to fail hard (this allows me to explore misconceptions of what destiny is supposed to be), a corporation trying to pull the strings with what people are interested in order to keep an intellectual property alive, inadvertently creating a prophecy as a result, a group of people conditioning the public into making them feel free when really they're trapped, particularly people at the bottom of the system, a man who can see into the future becoming bitter about the fact that the people he's freeing will eventually exploit their freedom and fall for another trap that'll get them enslaved again, Joan of Arc stories (I'm obsessed with this so much because her story is just so incredible lol)

I won't spoil it, but in That Stick Figure Isekai, I wanna explore this rebuttal Archbishop Sheen made with the "your not truly free unless you sin" argument where he says "eating the apple is the equivalent of giving a child a shotgun".

As to why there's so many stories that revolve around destiny, ASIDE from people basing their stories on the Bible (J.K. Rowling), or people doing the Heroes Journey trope (Star Wars), or whatever, I think it's probably because a large amount of people (like me) generally believe in it which if that's the case, I dunno if destiny will ever be truly overrated. Especially if that story is ingrained in us as a species.

[Mar_Sadeh]

[reposted because I messed up the response, oops]

I both do and do not agree. On the one hand, yes, destiny is popularly believed, especially in The Bible and related, and of course lots of people (particularly religious people like you and me) believe in it to some degree. I nonetheless don't think that it's good writing to rely on it as a crutch. As you say, it's hard to ascertain the manga in question without even knowing what it is, let alone reading it, but I do certainly understand the frustration of "Couldn't they be friends because they became friends through trials and tribulations, not because it was forced upon them without a choice?"

It's also worth noting that fate in Biblical stories is more complicated than "because God said so" and is a more interesting example than can be seen in some lazier stories. I bring them up because I suspect you and I are of similar enough opinion that we can use these as reasonable examples, not to proselytize (I know Catholic tradition won't agree on the details of the examples for instance, but that's less important for this conversation than what it says about destiny/fate, and the "style" of thinking I think we are alike on). Ex: Noah was fated to be the one to lead the world to receiving Torah, but neither he nor the world was ready [Zohar]. In the end his soul was reincarnated as Moses later - in that sense Moses was always "destined" to receive Torah because of a past life, but he and the Jews still had to be ready for it. After all, Noah was destined for it too and he didn't get it, so who's to say Moses will? Moses was also fated to be the high priest of the nation [Midrash] but he lost the right because he hesitated.

As a non-religious example, the novel series The Stormlight Archive includes a lot of notions of fate/destiny that are nonetheless malleable. Some characters have the potential to became Knights Radiant because of things that happened to them when younger, and some just don't. It's like destiny in that sense. However, to gain power as a Knight Radiant you have to say certain oaths fully and truly, and believe them. Ultimately it's up to the potential Radiant themselves to become who they need to be, grow as a person, and unlock their true potential. Just because someone is "destined" to become a Knight Radiant, doesn't mean they will do so. Even then, I know of some people who were frustrated at parts of the story because of this - I can't specify without spoilers, but some people thought one arc would be about someone who would overcome a big obstacle through tenacity and hard work but, in their eyes, "cheated" through it because of these reasons. They still had to grow as a person and work to get where they ended up, but it wasn't the same kind of obstacle some people felt the story had promised them it would be, and they felt lied to.

In some sense, it's not so much destiny itself that is overrated, as it is lazy and shallow depictions of it that don't capture any real nuance. Or, in other words, bad writing. But also it's important that the story tell you what kind of story it is, that the reader understands going in that fate and destiny play role, or else they may feel misled or lied to. For instance, if the manga was halfway through its story when it unceremoniously dumped a "IT WAS FAAAATE" on the reader, then no wonder it was annoying, even if otherwise done quite well!

[faisalhussein394]

Agreed, to me the only way to make Destiny interesting is when the character forged it, making his/her own goal.

Not through prophecy, or birthright that is set in stone, but through the character's own desire and motivation to keep on moving, building their own path instead of following their predecessors.

[NickRowler]

I guess for me I would want something a little more to destiny plots.

Like it's sort of bland that Naruto just says he wants to be Hokage through out the whole manga then he gets to be one in the end. I know that is just a shonen manga trope, Zatch Bell (Konjiki no Gash) was the same way. Just repeating over and over what the character wanted and just ending with him getting exactly what he wanted. I guess it's a bit predictable.

I think Un Lun Dun is a good book for talking about the issues with prophecy. And sometimes the person who is being told over and over that they are meant to "save everyone" might not.

Tho on the flipside, I don't mind it in Lion King. Maybe because there is the whole part about self doubt and Simba unable to fulfill his destiny because of his own trauma.

[Zhengo]

Weirdly enough, I feel like the only story I've encountered that uses the idea of destiny in a clever manner is Percy Jackson. Those books basically start out with a new prophecy each time but the catch is the wording is vague and you basically have to guess along with the characters what would happen. Usually the end result has some kind of twist because of a technicality in the wording.

Anyways, relating to this, I do want more stories of prophecies that play with technical wording. I've had an idea of a kind of 'forceful' prophecy that almost becomes a law of the world, that whatever is said on the prophecy will happen to the word, even if it's not in the way people expect. Like for example a prophecy of a hero, but the hero in question dies midway through. The laws of the prophecy forbids that and resurrects the hero as an undead zombie, etc.

[Mar_Sadeh]

[messed up the reply again :|]
I can confirm that Percy Jackson isn't the only story to do that. The idea is as old as, well, as old as Greece, fittingly! A lot of Greek myth revolves around a prophecy being stated, someone or someones trying to skirt around the prophecy, and ultimately their actions to do so cause the prophecy to happen (ie their attempt to kill the person who was prophesied to overthrow them results in that person seeking revenge and ultimately overthrowing them). Macbeth also pulls a twist like that, with "No man of woman born can kill me" being a prominent prophecy.

A good modern example I have is The Wheel of Time, where the prophecies are (1) not guaranteed to happen at all, merely likely, and (2) the wording is very vague and lots of the time nobody is sure what the prophecies mean until they happen and sometimes not even then. Like your hoped-for case, it is implied that the world tries to force the prophecy to occur, but can't 100% guarantee it. As a result, certain characters have a sort of in-universe "main character syndrome", where strange and improbable events will actively follow the heroes because they're ta'veren, which basically means "main character" - so there is an in-world explanation for why the crazy things always happen to the main protagonists and not anyone else.

[powerplantanimations]

On the topic of Naruto, one thing I'm hoping is that My Hero Academia ends with Deku becoming the "Greatest Superhero" but it becomes a huge asterisk where he becomes the greatest superhero... on HIS planet lmao. Like show that there's other planets and we get into the cosmic side of superheroes.

[NickRowler]

I just can't get into modern shonen because I think I sort of aged out of the "I want to be the best _______!" type of stories. I think I prefer something like Dragon Ball Z where Goku getting stronger was more to stop bad guys and save people and less about him bragging that he is better than everyone else.

[TheLemmaLlama]

And then, in a recent chapter...it's revealed that they all used to know each other in their previous lives. Not only that, but they were all already FRIENDS in those previous lives, enjoying relationships that we DON'T get to see built up over time.

And it's just so...disappointing, in a way. =/

Oof yes, I feel that. Maybe not to do with destiny in particular, but I've always hated being 'predicted' or being told that I do XYZ because of something to do with my demographics instead of my own free will. To the point that I feel the need to do the opposite, just to avoid being 'predicted'. For instance,

• 'you're autistic so you love routine' -> what no I hate routine, look at how randum i am
• 'you're asian so you're good at math' -> what no, me, maths? nooo imma artist :]
• 'you're easily offended and take yourself too seriously' -> who me? nooo, look at me doing these quirky things and shrugging it off when people laugh at me. it's you who cares too much about 'dignity' from where I stand!
• 'you love your biological mother more than your stepdad' -> whaaat? noo. i don't care about mom and stepdad is cool. do you feel like a fool yet for assuming I care about blood ties?

To be able to decide for yourself that you want something that no one ever told you to want, or that everyone has explicitly told you NOT to want...to learn to love something or someone without any outside influence pushing you towards it, propelled solely by your own desire-- that's amazing. And it really deserves to be spotlighted in stories more often.

I don't actually feel this is an uncommon theme though, I've seen plenty of stories that are about defying destiny/the expectations of the people around you. In fact, I think when taken too far, it can pose issues of its own, For instance, my past obsession with avoiding 'prediction' at all costs actually caused me to deny some aspects of myself.

• I do actually like math, and the reason why I was bothered by people attributing it to my ethnicity is not because they're wrong about my affinity for math, it's because I want people to know I chose to do math because I like it. It's basically your example of the friendship that developed because of the characters' actions, only for it to really have developed because of destiny. My life would've been poorer if I decided to reject math just because people said I was supposed to embrace it
• I am actually sensitive to stuff people say about me, and it took me a while to realise there's no shame in feeling upset about assumptions and it's okay to take it seriously and tell people they've hurt you. Asking someone to correct their behaviour isn't the same as demonizing them or accusing them for being a terrible person for daring to say stuff about you that they have no reason to believe would hurt you. You don't have to be super laid back all the time and laugh everything off.
• I do actually prefer mom over stepdad these days, but not because of blood ties. She's just honestly a more reasonable person than he is. In fact, it was he who accused me of 'favouring mum because of blood ties' when I didn't side with him during an argument. My obsession with not being seen as having favouritism may well have caused me to deny that stepdad was ... kind of a toxic person

(I actually don't like routine very much though But it's still very exhausting to change things up just for the sake of not having a routine, and I allow myself to fall into one if it occur naturally XD)

Basically don't save the world because destiny said so, but if you wanted to save the world anyway, don't avoid doing so just to defy destiny

[AxemanRifflord]

Tell that to these guys

[system]

This topic was automatically closed 30 days after the last reply. New replies are no longer allowed.