@HGohwell Mine is a pretty slow burn as well. Again, that's because this story was originally written back when I had no idea what it was eventually going to turn into. But I personally like what it's become. It's a journey. And you see for yourself how the layers form as each new step is taken. Whether I can pull it off in a way that's both gratifying and realistic enough not to come off as forced or ridiculous is yet to be seen.
@joannekwan Feel free to check out my work if you want! You're already doing incredible artwork for it, so I'd love your opinion on what I've got so far. I'll warn you, it's still very very early in the story regards to any serious polyamory actually forming. And I don't know what your personal tastes are for fantasy and that particular genre, so I don't know if you'll like the other aspects of the story or not. But hey, the invites there!
I would be unable to help in any way as I'm an extreme introvert who was not even sure to be able to handle one partner I did try a few times to write short stories with polyamory, but I feel it fell flat because it's too difficult for me to understand how it can work (not in term of emotional involvment of the different partners, but rather in term of emotional /exhaustion/).
However it's a subject I like reading about and I really appreciate what you are trying to do.
I'd like to see more geniune polyamory relationships in any kind of setting, really. I'd say I'd really like a fantasy or SF setting in the sense there is then more to discover than the relationship between the partners. I tend to find romance a bit exhausting just to read, and maybe more when there are more than two partners, so a fantasy setting with all the background lore etc will be more attractive that if it happens in a university cafeteria for eg.
But this is just my very specific case.
Again, thanks for tackling the subject in a genuine way
Well, you send a strong signal that it is in how you portray every female character, that’s why I recommended Royal Road as a site to post it on. There is nothing wrong with your writing technically, it is the portrayal of female characters vs the protagonist and his attitude toward them, and his cronies.
Ah yeah, I did not read the story so I won't discuss that particular point, but that's another thing: I'm only interesting in reading romance with healthy power balance, whatever gender (or lack thereof), and it's even more necessary in polyamory, where things can get pretty ugly quick if the balance is not quite right. Otherwise it is drama and has to be presented as such.
I absolutely love polygamy stories! Not necessarily because I'm interested in being in that kind of relationship myself, but because I love being able to learn more about how other groups of people live and love. There's definitely not enough healthy representation for it in media and fiction, which is part of why unfortunate situations end up happening irl in which people are forced into a poly relationship by their partner, situations in which people think you are cheating while you're actually in a poly relationship, etc, etc.
Harem stories in themselves are in my opinion not inherently bad, because they can be the basis of interesting characters and stories, but I do think they can give rise to some nasty unrealistic tropes and stereotypes.
@domisotto I have only introduced one main love interest so far, and as I know you read, it didn't work out. I've still got three more books worth of character development to go through here. If you don't want to read anymore that's perfectly fine. Though I will say, a male power fantasy was never my intention when I set out to write this, and it's definitely not what I consider my writing to be in any way.
@vothnthorvaldson part of what I'm wishing to explore through this writing is that balance. Not only that but the various different types of individual relationships that form within the group. That said, every relationship, poly or otherwise, has to start somewhere. So yes, I'll admit my work probably does look like it's setting up to be another Harem story, but that's not the payoff I want at all.
@MeLovesTacos I agree completely. I've never personally had a problem with them either, but I do see how they can affect IRL relationships in a negative way by portraying unrealistic expectations. Which is why I'm trying to subvert that by showing that poly relationships require effort and work just like any other relationship would. More so in some cases.
However, four out of four female characters that appeared on the pages, experienced immediate urge to have sex with the main character, 2 of hwom did, and one masturbated at length thinking about him, and the fourth he rejected. The moment the male main was brought down by a female character, he was immediately compensated by a submissive sex from a another female which he finished in a way that is humiliating for a female (and which she enjoyed). That's in the first 10K words or so?
EDIT: forgot to add, there was also not a single other male character attractive to females in the same piece of text. The only ones mentioned were specifically inept in gaining female attentions and one had a mentor role (old/priest)
Yass bring the polyamory stories.
I do wonder how difficult it would be to balance all of it though. I just finished a novel that featured a polyamory romance and, honestly, it didn't really feel like one. I only cared about the MC and the boyfriend while the girlfriend didn't make sense because their relationship wasn't really developed.
It got me thinking about how to execute that sort of relationship in a standard novel where word counts are important. On a webnovel you have all the time you want/need to build those relationships.
I'm not sure what story you read but there are some major inconsistencies in what you've given. Firstly, my male main character has only engaged in one sex scene so far from what I've posted of this story. So I don't know where you're getting that second one from. Secondly, I don't know where you're getting any "submissive sex" scene from but that was certainly not in my writing either. I haven't got a clue what you're referring to there.
Also, that thing about there not being any other males on campus who the female characters don't find attractive is completely untrue. I specifically mentioned a male character who was later introduced into the series who is actually more popular than my male protagonist is. He was mentioned very early on in the series and was introduced at a point you didn't seem to reach.
I have to be a hundred percent honest with you @domisotto you're coming off as extremely accusatory towards my work, and you don't even seem to be remembering it correctly. Because half of what you just said is in no way shape or form affiliated with what I've written. If you can provide a clear example to me, then I'll accept your argument, but as it stands right now, your accusing me of writing something that I simply haven't written.
From a technical standpoint, it can be a bit perilous. There's a lot you have to balance when writing this sort of thing. But that's why I really like Tapas. Because you can dedicate whole episodes to just the side narratives within your main narrative.
I honestly don't think the writing I've done could work for a standard novel format.
If it is not from your story, I am sorry, but as far as I remember, he:
a. showed his two buddies how to win a woman over quickly (a gymnast who immediately liked him; they didn't have sex)
b. got lured into a trap by a super-attractive female who was his enemy but mentioned how much she enjoyed sex with him and how she is going to miss it (they lived together for a while, and he 'saved' her)
c. the lady who is hunting him for her own purposes who masturbates in a shower thinking about him
d. the submissive cat girl he has sex with, finishing on her face--at which point I stopped reading because it was too much for me.
Your story starts with the following passage:
Valeir Duval, the buxom beauty of the Anju Academy, stared transfixed at the enchanted mirror in front of her office desk. She wasn't aware of it, but she was smiling. Something she always seemed to do while watching him.
next, another woman walks in... described as just raven-haired.
Three sentences down the road, you suppliment her description as 'raven-haired' with 'dark-haired oriental beauty'
Basically, from the first paragraph, women are treated as vessels of beauty that is overemphasized to the reader AND one of them is already lusting after him with a dreamy smile and parted lips.
I didn't see any other attractive male in any significant role, and lol, I normally notice them... certainly no raven-haired virile studs walking in...
I am not accusatory, I am just explaining why your story came across as a male power fantasy to me: all ladies are beautiful and all want to sleep with the cursed and angsty protagonist who either reluctantly or enthusiastically agree (alternatively gently puts them down). It is emphasized by the language used and the fixation on describing females with hair color plus 'beautiful' thrown in, and some questionable language (i.e. 'oriental'). Other males used in comic relief or Old&Wise roles, not as credible rivals.
There is nothing wrong with writing it, everyone has different power fantasies and many people enjoy reading them. Own your story's niche, promote it as such, and you might do better actually than trying to change it. Stories that speak to men have as much validity as those that are women-facing.
I absolutely agree with you! There are many writings that are supposed to be about polyamory, but in my opinion, they're actually not. They're much more of a harem. Many people think and say that harem relationships and polyamorous relationships are just the same, but no! These two kinds of relationships are two different things!
I'll be honest, I am not a fan of harem... I think there's a specific cliché in this genre. Like, there's the "contestants" and the Super Partner, like what you said, then the story would just have loops and turns and it comes to the point where the Super Partner picks one of the contestants. There's quite a number of anime shows or other types of shows that have this kind of plot and genre. I'm not implying to all of the harem stories out there, I'm just saying that most of the harem stories are kind of like this.
I prefer polyamory more, really. It's a bond where all of the people in the relationship have romantic ties to one another, and they don't just have sexual relationships or desires, they also harbor affectionate ties to each other. I don't know, it gives off a more "peaceful" vibe. Although I've never really seen these relationships in reality, I still respect both the people in polyamorous or harem relationships, and authors who write works about polyamory or harem.
What I'm simply trying to say here is, there are some harem stories that are categorized as polyamory. These two are quite different things, so harem stories shouldn't be categorized as something they are not. I understand what you're trying to tell, really. I'm glad you talked about this topic!
I'll say this here, this is my opinion. I know that not all of us have the same viewpoint and mindset, so I am being very open right now.
Okay, now I know which scenes you're talking about. I'm sorry if I came off as aggressive before, it's just that I have a lot of people who have been a lot less polite about this than you have so far trying to criticize my work before really giving it a full read, which has been extremely frustrating lately.
A. So, as far as the track scene, the main character isn't so much trying to help them pick up girls as he is trying to teach them to be respectful and not to harass women. At least, that was the intent behind the scene. If that's not what was conveyed then that's on me.
B. That line about her missing the sex was supposed to be a jab at him to show just how shallow she really is and how she never really cared for him to begin with. It was meant to establish she's a crass, callous, and uncaring figure who used him for her own personal gain. It wasn't really meant to inflate his ego, she was belittling him.
C. I know which shower scene you're referring to. And I won't argue that it's a bit excessive. That's just a part of that character's personality.
D. I completely forgot about him hiring an escort. So that one was my bad. But I will say, if you were disgusted by his actions there, you were supposed to be. That whole scene is his downhill spiral and trust me, he pays for it dearly. Funny enough, he ends up getting saved by the lady you mentioned in C and the power dynamic drastically shifts out of his favor. Unfortunately, I don't think you made it far enough to see that.
Again, I'm very sorry to have called you accusatory like that, it just felt like you were taking a lot of things out of context for the sake of an argument, but now it's clear to me you weren't. It's just been frustrating because so many people have been accusing me of writing a male power fantasy when that's not what I'm trying to do at all. I try to be as inclusive as I can be with how I write. And I certainly don't try to make anyone feel uncomfortable or use language that degrades or objectifies. But I'm still human. I'm still just as prone to error and mistakes as everyone else. If my words don't properly convey the story I'm trying to tell to you, then that just means I didn't convey them properly. So my work is flawed, yeah I'll admit that.
But I still really love my work, flaws and all. I'm still very passionate about it. My characters, my setting, my story, all of it. I want to see it do well, but more than that, I don't want to see it be written off as something it's not before it has even had a chance to reach its conclusion. And it feels like that's what a lot of people have done since I started posting it here. Which is why I opened this discussion in the first place. But I certainly wasn't trying to start an argument. So again, I'm very sorry for that.
You love your work. It is what it is and it is out of your hands how people read what you write.
If you want, you could go over it and reduce the male gazing vocab, maybe smooth out the balance of roles by reversing gender on some plot-important characters, eliminate the scenes that are not needed for the plot (i.e. buddies and easy-win gymnast or make her laugh off him along with his buddies, equating the three of them for example--his intent is good, but he doesn't come off as the God's gift to womanhood), focus on his emotional stream and make it more appealing, humble, vunerable vs angsty and self-aggrandizing. Explore female sexuality without fetishizing it, try to make it more real, less Playboy.
There are many things you can do, but you don't have to. You can look at your work from a bit of a distance and admit that hey, male power fantasy is not all bad. Be honest with yourself, be honest with your reader. Look at your story as if someone else wrote it. Read stories women write and see how they portray leading men they swoon over and their female protagonists--i.e. how they want to be seen--try to recognize the differences.
I am pretty sure that plenty of guys reading my stories would laugh out loud because men appear saccharine or something. But I know what I write. I write triumphant womanhood and men that I find irresitable. And I am proud of it.
@WinterFall and I can't guarantee that my story will be the best example of this practice, but I am trying to portray polyamory in a way that is real. Even if a lot of the elements surrounding it are very fantastical. Because I agree that there's a lot of mislabeling when it comes to stories involving polyamory. Which is why I've avoided using either tag when advertising my story.
@domisotto I'm glad you're finding your audience and writing a story you love. Honestly? At the end of the day, that's all I'm trying to do as well. The whole, male power fantasy thing just hits a little close to home with me because I'm not cis-gender. I'm just as capable of being attracted to men as I am to women. But the thing is, I didn't always use to be that way. Or rather, that's not true, I was just really deep in denial over it. I don't like being branded as pandering to cis-gender men because I've seen all too often what toxic masculinity can do to someone.
Because it happened to me. I denied a huge part of who I am for years because I was terrified of the fact that there were certain guys in my high school who I thought were attractive. To this day, I'm still trying to undo years of self-hate and I really want my writing to reflect that. I want cis-gender men to enjoy my writing sure. But I also want cis-gender women to be able to enjoy it as well. And non-binary people. And all people, really.
I don't want my writing to come off as exclusionary or pandering. More than anything, I just want to write a story everyone can pick up and enjoy if they want to.
I have no advice, but I wanted to drop a link to a comic that I think did a good job of portraying a closed poly relationship with 4 people, with more of an emphasis on love than sex (but also sex lol).
I'm not usually that into romance or BL, and I'm not poly (hell, I have a hard time giving enough attention to one person to make a relationship work), but I thought this story was sweet, and the art is nice. https://tapas.io/series/Dragon-Husbands/info5