Do my characters sound like adults?

[JoshRaed]

For my characters:

Orion doesn't speak or socialize, he does not understand social interactions at all, he is constantly pushing himself too hard, and he has terrible anger issues. These are all traits informed by his trauma.

Null fundamentally believes that he is irredeemably evil and deserves whatever comes to him. He is also constantly paranoid that he will be hurt or betrayed. He refuses to take things seriously because he has zero faith that anything good will happen to get his hopes up for, especially in regards to someone caring about him or respecting him.

Silea is constantly second guessing herself and underestimating her own ability, and in that one sequence we see that she is hurting herself.

Electra believes she has no emotions at all and doesn't want to. She also has a deep hate of alcohol.

These traits all relate to their personal trauma. I don't know where it went wrong here. I guess my writing failed to communicate their psychological profiles properly.

[JoshRaed]

@JoshRaed Instead of waiting for me to read your latest draft, consider putting it here for others to read. I can only say so much and we've had issues misinterpreting each other in the past.

I put it up before, but I was told I should just finish the story already so I decided to complete a draft of the third season. But before I do that I'm going to rewrite seasons one and two so I can have a base to work off of for it, since I'm going to cut chapters and add chapters and develop the relationships between the characters. Which means I'll finish the new draft of chapter 2 and then start making the new chapters. Then when season 3 is finished, that's when I post the first two chapters. Or all of season one maybe. One or the other.

[jwabeasley]

Ah, well in these short segments it reads like acerbic wit. If it's genuine then I'd have to assume autism or something else that doesn't take the conversation partner's emotional state into consideration.

For the rest, as I've encountered elsewhere with your work, most of your issues stem from these two main sources:
1. Lack of personal life experience in both breadth and depth.
2. Lack of media literacy outside of your preferred genre types, which exacerbates 1.

If you want to be the kind of writer you say you want to be, those two elements need to be addressed. And for goodness' sake, stop getting defensive and arguing with experienced creators who you've asked for critiques from.

[JoshRaed]

"clever" dialogue is dialogue that is written by someone trying to be clever.

I wasn't trying to be clever. I was trying to specify what this character feels. No desire to be smart. I feel tempted to deliberately make it sound dumber just to kill this criticism.

Also once again, I don't need pointers for the exact words he should say instead of what he said. There is a good narrative reason why Null would not call Cassandra a "hard ass". She is the Jesus of his religion, and his legal guardian. He does not think of her as a real hard ass, he thinks of her as a merciful goddess who he wishes was his mother. He would actively gush about her at length. He would defend her actions. And Orion would not say "A real hard ass how", like if he says something he has decided that the words he just said are very important, unavoidable. Not 'What do you mean your drill sergeant is a "hard-ass", that's something he'd just let sit there and never press further on, and he'd never even consider caring about it.

He only cares about "Who is this woman" and "Is she abusing you", and even that second part is sort of out of character maybe.

I didn't clarify any of these details because they did not matter.

Here's my take on this based on your line.

"Who was that."

"Cassandra. A real hard ass."

"Who was that"

"You just said that"

"You didn't answer"

"She was the caretaker of Arcanum soldiers."

And then he'd ask if she hurt him.

Here's a new version I just made up:

Orion: Who was that? The tall woman.

Null: Cassandra. Caretaker of the Arcanum soldiers, and the Arcanum prophet.

Orion: Why did you surrender?

Null: You don't fight Cassandra. She beats you down. Besides, I have no right to attack her.

Orion: Why not?

Null: She's my superior in every respect, always has been and always will be. I deserve none of the kindness she grants me.

Orion: You were scared of her.

Null: I never said she gave a lot of it. But always more than I deserve.

Orion makes an uncomfortable face at that.

Null: What? You worrying about me?

Orion: No. Never.

[Oriflamme]

I think part of the issue is not what you have written but how you wrote it.

Let me explain. The way people talk will depend on the medium. Movie dialog will be different from the dialog in a play, which in turn will be different from book dialog. All of these are different from the way people actually talk in real life. A good writer will make all the exchange feel reel even though no conversation in real life would happen exactly like that.

For example, in movies when two people talk to each other on the telephone, the character will skip most of the basic formality of calling. Instead, after saying hello, they go directly to the reason for the call. In real life you often see a few moments where people talk about something else before circling back to the topic.

Currently, your dialog seems more written for a movie or tv series. In this format, it is a lot easier to add and justify small exchanges of words that don't really move the story forward but add flavour to the character through the performance.

Conversations in novel form don’t work as well if they consist of a lot of quick exchange of small sentences, not that you can’t use them, but they should be used infrequently. You can reduce the number of line exchanges with character actions.

Instead of a witty comeback, a character could glare at the thing that undercut/contradict what the other character said followed up by what they do after they realise that the first character has noticed the flaw in what they just said.

You also don’t have to show all the conversation. There are moments where you can give a small summary of what happened.

[kyupol]

@JoshRaed - if I were you I'd just run with it. No matter what you do, someone is always gonna find something wrong. No matter how much of your intellect you pour into it... even if your iq is above 120... someone's always gonna bash it. And don't take it personally just laugh it off...

(Funniest negative comment of my work btw: "makes the worst of anime look like Brothers Karamazov" )

[abigaillmartin]

Well said dude.

I could say more but honestly I think you guys covered everything.

And @JoshRaed even if it’s scary or uncomfortable or whatever… find some activities you could do at your school. Go to social events, get to know people even if you may not be interested in what they have to say just listen.

I have a hard time interacting with people and I am very quiet. I don’t pick up social cues I always had a hard time with that, but I kept trying even if it was painful at times. Heck, I just embarrassed myself in front of my whole class the other day, but I kept going! I learned that getting to know people from all over can help you write your characters and it enriches your life. Everyone needs friends. Even if you struggle with social interaction. That’s what my friends irl did for me. My experiences with my friends and just having that connection helped me enrich my stories.

As for reading, I don’t really read fiction. It has always been a struggle for me. I read nonfiction. I am the kind of girl who reads the dictionary for fun. I read up on history, science, the human body.

I don’t know how to help, but I hope you friends in person. Don’t put it on us.

[abigaillmartin]

Josh. I think all you need is some real life friends and some serious confidence in yourself. (Still struggling with my confidence but I’m trying every day to be kinder to myself)

You’re not going to get anywhere with letting what other people think hold you back. It is a burden more than anything else to give yourself self loathing.

[JoshRaed]

Ah, well in these short segments it reads like acerbic wit. If it's genuine then I'd have to assume autism or something else that doesn't take the conversation partner's emotional state into consideration.

Why does "You didn't ruin everything you just feel like you did" sound sarcastic here? What would she really mean? That he did ruin everything?

I can only see her saying that because she means it. The point was that she was being direct and blunt. I don't know how this reads as something else.

So... how about this exchange?

---

"I am fairly certain this is just your low self-esteem talking."

"Haha rub it in."

"I'm not rubbing anything. You did not ruin everything, that's physically impossible."

Null: Do you have to be so pedantic? Can't I just mope and hate myself in peace?

Electra: No, you can't.

Null: What the hell is your problem with me right now? Did I do something to you?

Electra gets frustrated at this point.

Electra: Argh! I'm trying to be supportive! Why do I have to specify that."

Null: Oh... I guess that makes sense.

Electra: Why would anything else make sense? How could I possibly have been insulting you?

Null: I don't know...

()

Does that work better? Or does it make the whole exchange weirder and worse? For context this emotional and social confusion is a pretty important part of her character arc.

1. Lack of personal life experience in both breadth and depth.2. Lack of media literacy outside of your preferred genre types, which exacerbates 1.

I'm going to berkeley in the fall and will have to dorm there so... I guess that will change things.

But as for fiction. What would you recommend? I know plenty of other fiction with adult conversations, like Hereditary, Alien, suicide kings, Breaking bad, Wolf of wall street, A streetcar named desire, Pride and Prejudice, and psycho. But I'm at a loss as to how to take inspiration from "A streetcar named desire" to make dialogue for my action fantasy story, especially for Null, who was inspired by sonic the hedgehog and tracer overwatch.

[JoshRaed]

If you want to be the kind of writer you say you want to be, those two elements need to be addressed. And for goodness' sake, stop getting defensive and arguing with experienced creators who you've asked for critiques from.

I don't mean to be defensive and argue. I have nothing against any of you to be angry and argue about. I don't know why I come off that way. I respect everything I'm hearing and am grateful for everyone's help. I don't know what it is about my default reaction that makes it sound defensive. Like I don't think my writing is defendable in the first place. Otherwise I wouldn't be here asking about it.

[BoomerZ]

There is a good narrative reason why Null would not call Cassandra a "hard ass".

Think you missed the point. The actually dialogue doesn't mean anything in my example. It's the lead into another dialogue counter point. You could replace "hard ass" with some other descriptive that leads to an answer. I chose that line as filler. The point was real life conversation isn't monologues. It's the back and forth, short spurts. You also miss the point about "clever" dialogue. It is not based on the intelligence of the dialogue, it's based on the interaction and response. It's a line that doesn't sound like it's from a real person but a writer. Most dialogue in every Josh Whedon script falls under this. Even the dumb people talk like no human being does.

Orion: Who was that? The tall woman.

Null: Cassandra. Caretaker of the Arcanum soldiers, and the Arcanum prophet.

Orion: Why did you surrender?

Null: You don't fight Cassandra. She beats you down. Besides, I have no right to attack her.

Orion: Why not?

Null: She's my superior in every respect, always has been and always will be. I deserve none of the kindness she grants me.

Orion: You were scared of her.

Null: I never said she gave a lot of it. But always more than I deserve.

Orion makes an uncomfortable face at that.

Null: What? You worrying about me?

Orion: No. Never

This is a better back and forth in structure. You don't want pointers on the actually dialogue so I will leave it at structure.

[Leyelle]

If you think so, again, it's your opinion. I'm just trying to offer you a suggestion. Take it or leave it.

[JoshRaed]

Sorry. I didn’t mean to be rude. I just default to saying stuff like this. Like to me it feels like saying that was a passive act of just saying the thing you say in this situation, but not doing it would be an active choice to stop myself.

[jwabeasley]

But as for fiction. What would you recommend?

College can be very formative, yes. I could give you a list of what I find inspirational, but I don't want you to be like me. I want you to be more yourself than you even realize you can be.

What I recommend is to go to an antique shop, a used bookstore, or an old library. Browse the dusty shelves in the far corners where nobody goes. Pick a book or three that stand out to you just based on their titles. Pull ten well-worn paperbacks out of the discount bin and get the ones you like the cover of. Read an interview by your favorite authors, find out who they were inspired by, then look up one of those authors and read their work. Get a popular romance novel that is NOT targeted to your demographic and make a valiant attempt at reading it. Go to a bible study populated entirely by truckers, hobos, and (former?) drug addicts. Find out their favorite books and get yourself a copy. Get weird, get real...don't lose yourself, but dip a toe everywhere, get your finger on the pulse of life down outside of the narrow straightjacket of acceptable public discourse. Do something hard, just because it is hard. Run a TTRPG campaign or ten, so you can get real-time reactions to the kinds of stories you'd like to tell.

I've been where you are, more or less. When I was your age I suffered from very similar things in my art and writing, too. It wasn't until I'd done some worthwhile suffering, and had a lot of practice, before anyone was interested in my art or writing. Don't be discouraged if you need to go through a similar maturation process to find your own voice rather than a derivative one.

[Leyelle]

well, when writing a story, you usually have to make an active choice to change the way your characters speak, or they'll all sound too similar, even if they sound exactly like the intended demographic. a good tip to live by is that most of your characters should not act like you in an easily traceable way

[abigaillmartin]

Key word is

ACTIVE

[abigaillmartin]

Honestly, I read your dialogue. It is perfectly fine.

You know what I do?

I draw the comic in a thumbnail sketch and write the dialogue in sketched out word balloons. They are always very messy. I often cross stuff out until I feel I get the right one.

Here’s an example (from an unreleased page oooooo!)

And here I what I do for the dialogue. I write it all down in one note and get it ready for pasting in the future. That way I am prepared for when I’m ready to work on a page.

(Dialogue of the specific panel shown above)

I always label it as “All Dialogue” I’ve been doing this for years. I used to improvise when I was first doing digital comics, but I found that to be tedious.

And here’s another example of written dialogue.

Most of the time I just wing it and leave in what I think sounds good to me. I just roll with it and not have a care in the world about people thinking it being corny or whatever.

It drains your energy when you spend so much time on worrying about what other people think. And with my anxiety I just learned it’s a mindset I don’t have time for. So just be yourself and don’t worry about what others think.

Take my advice or leave it. Otherwise, it was (sorta) a waste of my time.
(But I like sharing my creative process. It’s fun.)

[abigaillmartin]

I have another idea. Maybe you could join a DnD group!
That would help!

[MelancholicOtaku]

@JoshRaed Writing dialogue is something that I have trouble with me myself,especially since it involves understanding social cues and understanding the flow of a conversation. The only advice I can give you is to one listen and observe how others talk and socialize,the next one is to practice and ,ask for help from other fellow writers.

[UrMom]

Soooo a bunch of people already chimed in with really good advice. I can't say I'll add anything special, but it doesn't hurt to gather viewpoints. I do agree that your writing feels young, it has the awkwardness of a teen/tween drama, or something like Goosebumps/Are You Afraid of The Dark?. Some part of the dialogue are a little hand-holdy, like you expect the audience to not comprehend certain things, if that makes sense.

I do have my own version of how I would recreate some of the dialogue. This isn't so much a suggestion as it is just me showing how I may do it, if your current writing style is most comfortable for you I'd say to keep doing it, your story is free to read afterall. Plus, I'm not your target audience nor someone who writes a whole lot, so it's not my place to tell you what to do.

Spoiler for length

Orion looks at him with concern.

Orion: Who was that? The tall woman you saw.

Null: Cassandra. Caretaker of the Arcanum soldiers, and the Arcanum prophet.

--

His face is more stern now.

Orion: Why did you surrender?

Null: You don't fight Cassandra. She beats you down. Besides, I have no right to attack her.

Orion: Why not?

--

He looks down wistfully.

Null: She's my superior in every respect, always has been and always will be. I deserve none of the kindness she grants me.

Orion: You were scared of her.

Null: I never said she gave a lot of it. But always more than I deserve.

--

Orion makes an uncomfortable face at that.

Null: What? You worry about me?

Orion: No. Never.

Orion: Who was that tall woman?
Null: Oh, Cassandra. She's the Arcanum prophet, and caretaker for our militia.
Orion: Is that why you obeyed her?
Null: I would never win if I attacked her, also I have no desire to fight.
Orion: Why so?
Null: She is my respected superior, and the kindness she grants me is already more than I deserve.
Orion: You looked to be scared of her.
Null: Cassandra is a stern figure, she is only gentle when necessary. Still, it's more than what I person like deserves.
Null: What? Is that odd to you?
Orion: No... It's nothing.

---

I don't know the context to this, so I could be incorrect in my reinterpretation. I did find repeating Arcanum unnecessary since I imagined she wouldn't be the prophet and caretaker anywhere else, if you've already mentioned them being in this location prior you don't even have to mention it in the dialogue since your readers should the the literacy skills to figure that out on their own. The response you had to BoomerZ's suggestion was interesting. You mentioned Orion only being interested in who Cassandra was and if she's abusing this child (19 is still a child as far as brain development goes.), but asking how she's a hardass could help answer those questions. Null would logically share some info on who she is, and what she does to make her a "hardass", which could enlighten him some on her abusive nature.

---

Electra is standing there awkwardly in a leather jacket over a sleeveless shirt. Without her helmet you can see her dark skin, her deep brown eyes, and her long cornrows.
Electra: Hello. Is this the house of Penthasilea Valiant?
—
Silea: Electra!
Silea giddily bum rushes her to hug her tight, and Electra reacts to this with awkward confusion and a bit of blushing.
Electra: The answer is yes then?
Silea: Yep!
—
She pulls back and sees the bike has folded into a luggage case, and her eyes go wide and glittery in excitement, and Electra looks away blankly.
Silea: Whoa you really made that?! You're literally the coolest person who ever lived.
Electra: I am almost certain that is hyperbole.
—
She turns to look Electra in the eyes intensely with her hands on Electra’s very surprised shoulders.
Silea: Hyperbole is a made up concept invented by pussies who won't own up to their words.
—
There is a pause and Electra reacts to that phrase in a way she doesn't understand, and Silea tilts her head.
—
Electra looks out into the doorway curiously, a sweat bead on her forehead, and Silea looks out with a focused but unserious look.
Electra: Where do I put my bags?
Silea: I have no idea. We'll have to find space inside.

Electra: Hello? Is this the home of a Penthasilea Valiant?
Silea: AH! Electra!
Electra: I'm guessing that's a 'Yes'?
Silea: YES!
Silea: Amazing! You made this?! You're seriously the coolest person ever!
Electra: No need to embellish.
Silea: Embellishment is for pussies, I'm being sincere!
Electra: So, where should I put my bags?
Silea: Oh shoot! We'll have to find a space for them outside until that's sorted out.

---

Silea's dialogue seemed intentionally immature, so I tried to keep it that way while also making her come off a little older. The bit about hyperboles being for pussies who can't own up to their words was a little much, very "Feminism Girl Boss" and felt like she was reading a script, it didn't read naturally at all.

---

Then she bumped into Orion walking the other way.
Silea: Whoa! Orion. I thought you were still crying.
Orion: I was. I just… After everything that happened… I just thought we should talk about it.
—
Silea: I was actually here to talk to you about that.
Orion: Oh. You go first then...
—
Silea: Okay, so... How are you feeling right now?
Orion: Shitty. How about you?
Silea: (sighs) same, honestly.
—
Silea: Do you want to talk about it?
Orion: I think I would, actually. But... What's there to say?
Silea: A lot of things. How are you holding up after all that?

Here's another old one, which is actually pretty outdated.

He leaps off of it, lands in a roll, and spins around dramatically to face Silea as she punches a wall.
Null: What… are you doing?
Silea: I'm training.
Null: By playing bloody knuckles with drywall?
—
He comes closer.
Silea: That's how a valiant does it.
Null: What's being a blueblood have to do with breaking your fists? Orion does it too for some reason.
Silea: You wouldn't get it.
—
Null: Shouldn't you be training with your staff?
Silea: My staff isn't going to stop an army.

Silea: Orion! Are you done crying?
Orion: Yes. I just... I think we should talk about everything that just happened.
Silea: I was actually on my was over to do that!
Silea: So, how are you doing right now?
Orion: Shit, I feel like trash. How about you?
Silea: -Sigh- Yeah, same. Pretty much.
Orion: Yeah...
Silea: Would you... like to talk about it? You know, if you're comfortable.
Orion: I... think I would, actually. I just don't know where to start.
Silea: We can start from the first thing that comes to your mind. How about that?

---

I changed up the last bit since I didn't think there was a need to ask how Orion was holding up after already asking how he's feeling, it was pretty much the same question worded differently, and changing that last part seemed more productive to the story.

I didn't do that last two dialogue sequences since I'm short on time, but again, I just wanted to share how I would go about doing these scenes. I saw you talk about wanting to show the character's trauma, and it's cool you're interested in depicting that topic, but personally the dialogue was too stilted for me to really pick up on it. Everyone has already made really good suggestions for this, I would add to do a lot of psychology research on the types of trauma you're depicting. Follow therapists discussing that stuff on Youtube or TikTok, follow survivors talking about their experiences, those are really great starting points for understanding the human aspect of trauma. Also, this is a weird one, but I like watching reaction vids where people watch short films or music videos depicting trauma or mental illness. Especially reactions from therapists and survivors, they always have their own unique responses and perspectives on the videos their watching that may be helpful.

Again, I'm not trying to tell you how to write or what to do, I was sharing my viewpoint. Do what makes you happy! At the end of the day this is your story, and you're sharing it for free.