Do you find it important to celebrate LGBTQ characters in anime, manga and movies?

[DiegoPalacios]

People don’t transition to escape particularly oppression. Transpeople face huge amounts of discrimination.

True, but i've met someone who wondered if she was transgender because she was fed-up by gender roles and a friend thought he was gay after a really bad break-up with a woman.They realized it was not their case afterwards. I am not saying this is the norm or anything, only that it can happen. The path of self discovery is better to do it calmly.

Trans representation in media has nothing to do with whether cispeople find trans people attractive or not. You can still be supportive of a group of people even if you don’t want to date them. Trans rep isn’t really designed to force on lookers to transition, it’s more that trans people exist thus they should exist in media.

of course......the sky is blue, what's your point?

But by that logic, if you're a woman, and you're attracted to a cis woman, who identifies as a woman, but has a muscular build, husky voice and short hair... but who is still inarguably "a woman", you're still straight, so long as you perceive her as a man. And only become gay if learning she's a woman doesn't immediately stop you from feeling attracted to her.

Well.....yeah......it would be a silly misunderstanding, but i would still be straight.....the catfished folk who had online conversations with someone who they thought was a woman or man is still the same sexual orientation they were before the interaction.

[harlan]

I appreciate representation.

As long as it's not gaycoding a villain or "bury your gays" representation.

[JoshRaed]

a lot of us are just so tired of every story about queer characters being a coming out story where the entire conflict is based around them being gay or trans.

The webcomic jackson’s diary has a whole plot in one season about a black man, Exer campbell, trying to win the heart of a white woman, Brenda miller, in the late 80’s, before interracial marriage was largely accepted by the public. And the story never addresses racism once.

But there’s also a bisexual character, David Miller, and the story just has to make it clear that he experiences homophobia, and he’s closeted for most of the series, and his dad is implied to be homophobic, and this is largely what his character is about. Exer is also bisexual, but this isn’t even hinted at until more than half a season in, while david is presented as the token gay one in the group from the start.

Then when these two characters start falling in love in season 2, there is angst about it and stuff, and also Exer is ambiguously implied to have some internalized homophobia to work through. (“David will love you no matter what” “even if i’m a freak?”)

Like if you can just completely rewrite the 80’s as containing no racism whatsoever, why does david have to face homophobia at every turn?

[powerplantanimations]

I'm responding to this post is because I've been watching Archer recently and Ray is my FAVORITE gay character ever. Like probably the only gay person in media where his insults just... bite. A lot of shows where I see a gay person insult a homphobic person... it just doesn't have that umph? This fool's putting people down edgy homophobic people in a way that would legitimately piss them off in the real world (and I'm not talking online wise y'all, online isn't a real place).

I also love the relationship he has with his family. He was willing to save his racist drug dealing brother in the hard south despite the fact that he knew he would've never accepted his lifestyle. It was sweet that he was willing to die alongside his brother despite their differences. More stuff like that please. I get a kick seeing protagonists protecting characters that CLEARLY don't deserve it. Especially when their ideologies should never mix. He never comes out to him either. He was willing to die on the secret, which adds a bit of sorrow to the situation? I dunno. I live for complicated relationships like that in media.

Also... this guy is probably the second worst out of the group morally speaking? The show doesn't shy away from making him do bad stuff that'll make you go "WOW, okay... something's not right with him". Not going to go into detail here, but... yeah... he's a horrible person.

Anyway, I'm fine with representation in general. One thing that's bothered me is the death thing. People get mad when they just... kill a gay character off? Or minorities for that matter? I've always been of the opinion that death is indiscriminate and you shouldn't let a character live because they're a particular group (unless that's the point). Which is why I have this rule where the first person I think up of, THAT'S their identity forever (unless I'm shifting mythologies). As a minority I hate the "let's throw a bone" mindset people in the industry have. It's condescending and I'm already jaded with big companies as a whole. It feels like they're trying to get at my pockets which is why I'm ONLY okay with it when it's REALLY from the heart. Disney's been my biggest issue.

I'm also not a fan when people get their hands on a property and just... go trigger happy when changing character's sexualities. Take Sonic the Hedgehog for example! A lot of the writers there are gay from what I heard and... OH BOY. Look, I'm VERY HAPPY that they have representation. I REAAAAAALLY am. BUT I do think there's a point where you just need to slow down becaaaaaause... there is a point where you can tell the fanfic side is taking over. Not a fan of Ian Flynn's "GIVE THE AUDIENCE WHAT THEY WANT" mentality either. Especially if the IDW comics are pretty much canon in a weird way with characters being canon to the main universe.

Oh yeah there's the problem where people claim characters who were meant to be symbols of other groups. So much I can get into about this.

[Katzalcoatl]

I'm also not a fan when people get their hands on a property and just... go trigger happy

If I had to say I am actually not a fan of forced changes or forced plots. For example, I never liked when someone was fired from a show and that character just died and suddenly got replaced just to keep the balance.

A forced change or a forced plot can actually create the opposite effect of what it was intended by the author.

An example, of a forced plot that ruined a story would be "The Abandoned Empress". It is a korean novel in which the ML killed the MC's child and raped her among other things, thus when she returned to the past she had a huge trauma. The author tried to sweep everything under the rug by saying the ML of the present is a different ML from the alternate future.

Beleive it or not forced topics are not unique. In "Doctor Elise" the MC wanted to break her engagement and she succeeded but the author forced the engagement to continue with a silly explanation just that she could continue to be in contact with the ML.

There are also examples of forced plots due to authors wanting to overextend their abilities of writing. Trying to be inclusive in every way they can. An example of this being by Inori the author of "I'm in love with the villainess". The story started out great and it had a very interesting theme. It slowly started to include elements and characters that felt forced. One of those characters created a plot hole.

The heroine needed a love rival besides the Crown Prince so they added the female cousin of the FL to compete with the MC for the love of the FL. The problem is, that according to the original story, when the MC hadn't possesed the heroine the female cousin showed no interest in the FL. Even when the FL was engaged with a douche of a Crown Prince. The author didn't really concentrate on the story and they started concentrating on inclusion of multiple topics that didn't really add anything to the story.

The author even went as far as introducing an incest couple of a blood related brother and sister into the mix. They tried to kill everyone but even after getting stopped they still got financial support by the MC just because the female used to be a maid of the FL.

What the author did right was showing the struggles of a prince in the main cast. In which they felt better and more liberated by being a woman instead of a man (a whole curse was involved).

What they didn't do right however, was trying to include as many problems as posible at once instead of giving each struggle the correct amount of screentime in order to let the reader get more involved with the story. What do I mean?
There were multiple things going on throughout the story at the same time. So much so, that when it was time to talk about the MC's past you were never able to identify with her or even feel empathy for a trans bully that comitted suicide.
Suicides are a serious topic but when you just gloss things over like "I got bullied, got betrayed by friends, and years later I met my ex-bully. Ooh yeah did I forget to mention the ex-bully comitted suicide? My bad." My point being the author wrote so many things going on that when a serious topic arised you couldn't really feel any empathy towards the situation.

There are also cases in which the anime and manga are bad but the novel just doesn't get justice like the recent anime of "The Magical Revolution of the Reincarnated Princess and the Genius Young Lady"

Now that I have mentioned bad examples of what some authors have done, let's mention some examples in which the creators did a great job.

A recent original anime that added LGBT representation while not feeling like that was their only trait was "Lycoris Recoil". Nothing felt forced and the characters added so much more to the story. They didn't have only one trait that defined them.

A good cartoon series that changed the original characters was "She-ra and the Princess of power".
It was a great series (and I will never get tired of saying it) in which each character was unique but nothing felt forced. I loved the whole story and representation was just the extra flavoring, it wasn't the main course.

As I see it, representation can go good or bad but it mostly depends on how well written a story is. The same thing goes for changing a well known character be it their physical characteristics or their sexuality. It can go good or bad depending on how well written said changes are done.

[UrMom]

Well, rep is good and I certainly prefer to consume queer media over cis/het, but personally wouldn't celebrate it... because I'm not the celebratory type. Also I've grown up watching stuff like The Birdcage and Queer as Folk, as well as reading yaoi/yuri, bara and shounen-ai/shoujo-ai. It feels pretty normal to me despite it still being a minority thing that people get weird about.

Regarding corporations like Disney and such specifically I don't give them any participation points. Their rep is as hollow as when they slap on a rainbow logo during Pride Month, despite funneling money into bigoted bills and politicians during the rest of the year. If anything I give more support and "celebration" to indie creators because most of the time they'll put more effort into their rep, with little to no monetary gain, at least from my experience.

Again, we need rep. I'm just that weird queer person who doesn't attach to media like most, and doesn't get particularly excited to see "me" in fiction.

I think it's important to represent the LGBT+ community in every medium, but I hate when in a comics for example every character is queer and cis eteros are a minority or nowhere to be seen. Ok, I get for people from the LGBT it's important to see characters like themselves, but sometimes I feel like authors put them just to get more readers or that it's impossible that in a school and/or group of friends everybody it's queer at the end of the day.

People generally gravitate to others they feel comfortable with, and can relate to. Minorities especially tend to stick to their own groups because they understand eachother better than those outside their minority, and feel safe with peers who know their struggles from experience. Not to say you won't find a white guy hanging in a black group, or a cis/het person chilling with a bunch of queer people, having more than a couple just isn't common. Especially with teens and young adults.

Also while this doesn't relate to queer folks segregated schools aren't uncommon, even today where segregation doesn't legally exist in the US anymore (As far as I know.) you'll still find schools with majority POC students depending on it's location. It wouldn't be too alien of a concept for a writer to reference that for a fictional queer majority school, if they also played with similar socioeconomic dynamics it would certain make for an interesting piece of fiction.

[powerplantanimations]

Regarding the forced plots, yeah... my biggest problem is that there's people who get mad at you for pointing it out. It's like "Who cares! The end justifies the means". I feel like things are (slowly) improving, but still... these people are like... they can get difficult to conversate with. You had NO idea how happy I was when the Blue Beetle trailer came out and Mexicans were like "Oh that's... cool... anyway BACK TO DRAGON BALL!". I remember this person clearly not part of the culture tweeting out "Mexicans FINALLY have their Black Panther" and Mexicans were like... replying with images of Luchadors and other Mexican superheroes made in Mexico.

I also sort of have a pet peeve where people choose to make main characters a certain group. As I said before, I'm totally fine if the writer can't help it. Like it's subconscious. But if they outright SAY IT like it's an obligation to make protagonists a certain way then I can't help but feel the writer is limiting themselves from learning about different points-of-views. They can benefit learning about circles outside of themselves (researching about different cultures is also fun).

@UrMom THANK YOU FOR BRINGING UP THE DISNEY THING! Had to write a paper on that whole pride thing recently. Also I agree 101% about not attaching to media. I think that's like a slippery slope.

[smokesalty]

It's very important to me as a queer person.

However, I do find myself feeling frustrated when the "queer rep" especially in anime and manga is just a side character or character with little screen time that's implied to be LBGTQ+. Like I'll hear someone say that x character is LGBTQ only to barely see it when I watch/read the source material. It really can come off as the writers either unintentionally implying it, playing it off as a joke or making it so vague that it people can can interpret it as either or.

That's why when we do get representation that is unabashedly unafraid to be queer, it is really important to celebrate it. I get very excited when I feel like I can see myself on screen, which is thankfully becoming more and more common.

With manga and anime specifically, we need to celebrate characters who are genuinely represented. Characters that are represented trans, and not just cross-dressers and ""traps," Celebrate gay characters who are represented as people, and no creeps who constantly hit on the male characters, or lesbian/sapphic characters who aren't just there for male fanservice. There's a big difference between genuinely being represented and just being tossed in there, ripe with stereotypes.

So yes, absolutely do celebrate! And I will always be excited to see LGBTQ characters.

But for myself, I just cannot be satisfied with a one-off character mildly being implied to be LGBTQ in a large cast full of cishet characters like Naruto.

[Katzalcoatl]

Mexicans were like... replying with images of Luchadors and other Mexican superheroes made in Mexico.

Yeah. As a fellow mexican that sounds like something we would do.

People generally gravitate to others they feel comfortable with, and can relate to.

Truer words couldn't have been said. This applies to anything in life be it liking anime, creating comics/novels, being a cheerleader, being vegan, etc.

That being said, it doesn't mean that everyone in said group will share every opinion you have.
In some cases, your best friends can come from outside the groups you mainly hang out with.

[UrMom]

THANK YOU FOR BRINGING UP THE DISNEY THING! Had to write a paper on that whole pride thing recently. Also I agree 101% about not attaching to media. I think that's like a slippery slope.

Man, I freaken hate Disney. Such a sleezy-ass company.

Right? Like, I comprehend how important it is to have rep having seen how it affects people first-hand, but it's a hard thing to relate to personally as someone who can't see fiction past it being fiction. I enjoy analyzing fiction, and empathizing with character's feelings and situations, but that's it usually. Like, Everything Everywhere All At Once was the first movie that felt like it was made for me, not because of the queer rep, but because of what the characters were going through and how they felt with their lives. As well as the overall struggle with finding that balance of optimistic nihilism.

Admittedly I feel really weird not being able to see myself when looking at a queer character like me since everyone else can do it. (Almost everyone!) Like a piece of my brain is missing.

That being said, it doesn't mean that everyone in said group will share every opinion you have.In some cases, your best friends can come from outside the groups you mainly hang out with.

Well yeah, that's how humans work, but most people in a minority will still better relate to each other than those outside of that minority. Again, you'll get white folks hanging out in groups of black people, and cis/het people with queer groups, but they're not the majority. Unless you're heavily closeted, or live in an area where you're practically the only queer person, you're probably going to be around a lot of people who can share in your struggles and experiences as a queer person.

[Katzalcoatl]

Admittedly I feel really weird not being able to see myself when looking at a queer character like me since everyone else can do it. (Almost everyone!) Like a piece of my brain is missing.

I am in the same situation. I can't see fiction as nothing else but fiction.

I will say this, nothing is missing with our brains and you should never doubt that.
If you start doubting yourself just for being different it would be like denying your own existance.

We all have different experiences and we don't have to feel identified with every character we see, since they could be going through different struggles than the ones we experienced.

[Wingstofly]

Actually I meant all sides of the LGBTQ, I don't mean just queer people alone.

[LunarScyphozoa]

…What? lgbtq+ (or however long that acronym is now) and queer are two words for the same thing?

[Katzalcoatl]

In theory, it should be the same thing.

For context @Wingstofly, queer involves anyone who doesn't identify as heterosexual or anyone who has a different gender identity from the conventional heterosexual norms.

Queer was originally used as a derogatory term against people with same sex desires but it was later taken by the Queer Nation as a form of protest to show the people how proud said members were to be who they are.

Nowadays, it is pretty much used as a synonym for LGBTQ+. Although I don't use the word as a synonym since the Q stands for Queer/Questioning. Which is probably why you got confused thinking people were only refering to the Q.
Anyone out of the loop would easily be confused thus why I stopped using it as a synonym for LGBTQ+.

(or however long that acronym is now)

The acronym should be over 100 indentities long. So... yeah just add the + it is way easier.

[NickRowler]

…What? lgbtq+ (or however long that acronym is now) and queer are two words for the same thing?

It is interchangeable but LGBTQ is usually used in more professional settings while queer is more casual. LGBTQ is usually a collective while queer can be used as a singular umbrella term.

So you say "LGBTQ rights", "LGBTQ friendly jobs".
Meanwhile you say, "queer films", "queer characters".

I think the one that really bugs me is when people say "I am a LGBTQ person". It always felt like a weird red flag. Are you really a lesbian & gay man & bisexual & trans & questioning person? All at once? Usually just list what you are or just say "a queer person".

[LunarScyphozoa]

Huh, I always heard people calling them queer rights or the specific group it’s affecting

[powerplantanimations]

I'm more of a "I relate with the struggle" rather than a "I relate with the character" which makes it so fun when seeing characters with different beliefs from mine dealing/coping with a situation far greater than everyone. It's like the conflict is the ultimate equalizer. It also adds this meta-layer for me since I constantly ask myself "what would I do in a situation with these weirdos".

The first movie I wanna say that felt was made for me ideology wise HAS to be the newest Pinnochio (the Netflix one). After seeing what Disney had I was like "Wow... they really are worried about their image, huh?". Like they took out the scene where kids drank alcohol, something that should scare children. Meanwhile, the Netflix iteration of Pleasure Island is a Hitler Youth Camp. The kids turn into asses figuratively. I just loved how they played off of how people constantly try to put strings on Pinnochio and get him to conform. Felt refreshing seeing Pinnochio talk about religion in a positive light. Disney's been pussy-footing around that topic in a lot of their media like Moon Knight. SURE they referenced that he was Jewish, but they never elaborated on his father being beaten-up by Neo Nazis or having him talk about his faith (which is VERY important with his character)... which makes me worried for Daredevil's reboot since that was another show that felt tailored made.

Anyway, as for Disney being sleazy... did you know they tried trademarking DAY OF THE DEAD (the Mexican holiday)? They are comically evil lmao. I really hope they don't get out of their latest slump and shut-down for good.

[Katzalcoatl]

I'm more of a "I relate with the struggle" rather than a "I relate with the character" which makes it so fun when seeing characters with different beliefs from mine dealing/coping with a situation far greater than everyone. It's like the conflict is the ultimate equalizer. It also adds this meta-layer for me since I constantly ask myself "what would I do in a situation with these weirdos".

Your comment just made me remember how it was that I identified so much with two characters. It was mainly for their personality, way of thinking, and some of their struggles. They have been the only two cartoon/fictional characters I have genuinly said "hey that's me".

The first one being Amity from "the Owl House" and the second one being Susy from "Summer Time Island". I had completely forgotten about them.
I thank you.
I did however identify with the struggles Jinx from "Arcana" went through.

It is so interesting how a single comment can juggle our memory.
The reason I thank you so much is because you made me remember something very fundamental as an author.
Lately, I had been losing my spark/inpiration and just kept writing to finish my novels. But now I recovered my inspiration.

Thank you thank you thank you. Remembering those 3 things made me return to my origins as an author.

I know to you this simple act was not intended and you didn't mean much. But to me it means the world since I can enjoy writing once more. 🫂

[UrMom]

@Katzalcoatl Ah that's true, also what I said could come off pretty rude to other folks who can't attach themselves to fiction. Sorry about that!

It's easier to connect to concepts and situations, which I guess goes back to relatable experiences. Lol

@AmeTsunami Ho yeah, LGBT+ and queer are the same thing. Philosophy Tube and James Somerton have some pretty good videos on the term. The latter is a reclaimed word that some still see as offensive, but as an umbrella term it's genuinely easier to say AND type, and covers everything way more cleanly than the former. Of course, to each their own, I just personally prefer to use it over LGBT+.

I'm more of a "I relate with the struggle" rather than a "I relate with the character" which makes it so fun when seeing characters with different beliefs from mine dealing/coping with a situation far greater than everyone. It's like the conflict is the ultimate equalizer. It also adds this meta-layer for me since I constantly ask myself "what would I do in a situation with these weirdos".

AH dude, I totally get that! Relating to struggles makes a story way more engaging imo. It definitely gives a universality to a piece of fiction, and when a story can make you SO UPSET you know it's great. Like, Train to Busan will never happen, but man, that movie made me cry so hard over what everyone was going through!

Oh you're talking about Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio, I love that movie! The stop-motion was gorgeous!

Yes! Dumbest shit ever, I'm glad they didn't manage to pay their way into trademarking it. They also took Blue Sky Studios out to pasture after buying it, I assume it was to get rid of competition given how hard they fight to hold the monopoly on American animation, but who knows what the reason was. Doubt they'll ever get shutdown since they're obscenely wealthy, but it would be nice if they took a small hit from their awful live-action remakes.

[Katzalcoatl]

what I said could come off pretty rude to other folks who can't attach themselves to fiction. Sorry about that!

No need to apologize. Everything we read here should be taken with a grain of salt since we may not be able to express our ideas correctly. This can cause many misunderstandings. Especially since there is no body language or tone and we are basically all strangers not knowing each others real personality.

I have to admit I did feel a little jelly when you said that "Everything Everywhere All At Once" was the first movie that felt like it was made for you.
But as you saw, I just remembered that I did identify in one way or another with 3 characters. I just had completely forgotten about them!
It made me extremely happy to remember them.