Do you find it important to celebrate LGBTQ characters in anime, manga and movies?

[UrMom]

Well, rep is good and I certainly prefer to consume queer media over cis/het, but personally wouldn't celebrate it... because I'm not the celebratory type. Also I've grown up watching stuff like The Birdcage and Queer as Folk, as well as reading yaoi/yuri, bara and shounen-ai/shoujo-ai. It feels pretty normal to me despite it still being a minority thing that people get weird about.

Regarding corporations like Disney and such specifically I don't give them any participation points. Their rep is as hollow as when they slap on a rainbow logo during Pride Month, despite funneling money into bigoted bills and politicians during the rest of the year. If anything I give more support and "celebration" to indie creators because most of the time they'll put more effort into their rep, with little to no monetary gain, at least from my experience.

Again, we need rep. I'm just that weird queer person who doesn't attach to media like most, and doesn't get particularly excited to see "me" in fiction.

I think it's important to represent the LGBT+ community in every medium, but I hate when in a comics for example every character is queer and cis eteros are a minority or nowhere to be seen. Ok, I get for people from the LGBT it's important to see characters like themselves, but sometimes I feel like authors put them just to get more readers or that it's impossible that in a school and/or group of friends everybody it's queer at the end of the day.

People generally gravitate to others they feel comfortable with, and can relate to. Minorities especially tend to stick to their own groups because they understand eachother better than those outside their minority, and feel safe with peers who know their struggles from experience. Not to say you won't find a white guy hanging in a black group, or a cis/het person chilling with a bunch of queer people, having more than a couple just isn't common. Especially with teens and young adults.

Also while this doesn't relate to queer folks segregated schools aren't uncommon, even today where segregation doesn't legally exist in the US anymore (As far as I know.) you'll still find schools with majority POC students depending on it's location. It wouldn't be too alien of a concept for a writer to reference that for a fictional queer majority school, if they also played with similar socioeconomic dynamics it would certain make for an interesting piece of fiction.

[powerplantanimations]

Regarding the forced plots, yeah... my biggest problem is that there's people who get mad at you for pointing it out. It's like "Who cares! The end justifies the means". I feel like things are (slowly) improving, but still... these people are like... they can get difficult to conversate with. You had NO idea how happy I was when the Blue Beetle trailer came out and Mexicans were like "Oh that's... cool... anyway BACK TO DRAGON BALL!". I remember this person clearly not part of the culture tweeting out "Mexicans FINALLY have their Black Panther" and Mexicans were like... replying with images of Luchadors and other Mexican superheroes made in Mexico.

I also sort of have a pet peeve where people choose to make main characters a certain group. As I said before, I'm totally fine if the writer can't help it. Like it's subconscious. But if they outright SAY IT like it's an obligation to make protagonists a certain way then I can't help but feel the writer is limiting themselves from learning about different points-of-views. They can benefit learning about circles outside of themselves (researching about different cultures is also fun).

@UrMom THANK YOU FOR BRINGING UP THE DISNEY THING! Had to write a paper on that whole pride thing recently. Also I agree 101% about not attaching to media. I think that's like a slippery slope.

[smokesalty]

It's very important to me as a queer person.

However, I do find myself feeling frustrated when the "queer rep" especially in anime and manga is just a side character or character with little screen time that's implied to be LBGTQ+. Like I'll hear someone say that x character is LGBTQ only to barely see it when I watch/read the source material. It really can come off as the writers either unintentionally implying it, playing it off as a joke or making it so vague that it people can can interpret it as either or.

That's why when we do get representation that is unabashedly unafraid to be queer, it is really important to celebrate it. I get very excited when I feel like I can see myself on screen, which is thankfully becoming more and more common.

With manga and anime specifically, we need to celebrate characters who are genuinely represented. Characters that are represented trans, and not just cross-dressers and ""traps," Celebrate gay characters who are represented as people, and no creeps who constantly hit on the male characters, or lesbian/sapphic characters who aren't just there for male fanservice. There's a big difference between genuinely being represented and just being tossed in there, ripe with stereotypes.

So yes, absolutely do celebrate! And I will always be excited to see LGBTQ characters.

But for myself, I just cannot be satisfied with a one-off character mildly being implied to be LGBTQ in a large cast full of cishet characters like Naruto.

[Katzalcoatl]

Mexicans were like... replying with images of Luchadors and other Mexican superheroes made in Mexico.

Yeah. As a fellow mexican that sounds like something we would do.

People generally gravitate to others they feel comfortable with, and can relate to.

Truer words couldn't have been said. This applies to anything in life be it liking anime, creating comics/novels, being a cheerleader, being vegan, etc.

That being said, it doesn't mean that everyone in said group will share every opinion you have.
In some cases, your best friends can come from outside the groups you mainly hang out with.

[UrMom]

THANK YOU FOR BRINGING UP THE DISNEY THING! Had to write a paper on that whole pride thing recently. Also I agree 101% about not attaching to media. I think that's like a slippery slope.

Man, I freaken hate Disney. Such a sleezy-ass company.

Right? Like, I comprehend how important it is to have rep having seen how it affects people first-hand, but it's a hard thing to relate to personally as someone who can't see fiction past it being fiction. I enjoy analyzing fiction, and empathizing with character's feelings and situations, but that's it usually. Like, Everything Everywhere All At Once was the first movie that felt like it was made for me, not because of the queer rep, but because of what the characters were going through and how they felt with their lives. As well as the overall struggle with finding that balance of optimistic nihilism.

Admittedly I feel really weird not being able to see myself when looking at a queer character like me since everyone else can do it. (Almost everyone!) Like a piece of my brain is missing.

That being said, it doesn't mean that everyone in said group will share every opinion you have.In some cases, your best friends can come from outside the groups you mainly hang out with.

Well yeah, that's how humans work, but most people in a minority will still better relate to each other than those outside of that minority. Again, you'll get white folks hanging out in groups of black people, and cis/het people with queer groups, but they're not the majority. Unless you're heavily closeted, or live in an area where you're practically the only queer person, you're probably going to be around a lot of people who can share in your struggles and experiences as a queer person.

[Katzalcoatl]

Admittedly I feel really weird not being able to see myself when looking at a queer character like me since everyone else can do it. (Almost everyone!) Like a piece of my brain is missing.

I am in the same situation. I can't see fiction as nothing else but fiction.

I will say this, nothing is missing with our brains and you should never doubt that.
If you start doubting yourself just for being different it would be like denying your own existance.

We all have different experiences and we don't have to feel identified with every character we see, since they could be going through different struggles than the ones we experienced.

[Wingstofly]

Actually I meant all sides of the LGBTQ, I don't mean just queer people alone.

[LunarScyphozoa]

…What? lgbtq+ (or however long that acronym is now) and queer are two words for the same thing?

[Katzalcoatl]

In theory, it should be the same thing.

For context @Wingstofly, queer involves anyone who doesn't identify as heterosexual or anyone who has a different gender identity from the conventional heterosexual norms.

Queer was originally used as a derogatory term against people with same sex desires but it was later taken by the Queer Nation as a form of protest to show the people how proud said members were to be who they are.

Nowadays, it is pretty much used as a synonym for LGBTQ+. Although I don't use the word as a synonym since the Q stands for Queer/Questioning. Which is probably why you got confused thinking people were only refering to the Q.
Anyone out of the loop would easily be confused thus why I stopped using it as a synonym for LGBTQ+.

(or however long that acronym is now)

The acronym should be over 100 indentities long. So... yeah just add the + it is way easier.

[NickRowler]

…What? lgbtq+ (or however long that acronym is now) and queer are two words for the same thing?

It is interchangeable but LGBTQ is usually used in more professional settings while queer is more casual. LGBTQ is usually a collective while queer can be used as a singular umbrella term.

So you say "LGBTQ rights", "LGBTQ friendly jobs".
Meanwhile you say, "queer films", "queer characters".

I think the one that really bugs me is when people say "I am a LGBTQ person". It always felt like a weird red flag. Are you really a lesbian & gay man & bisexual & trans & questioning person? All at once? Usually just list what you are or just say "a queer person".

[LunarScyphozoa]

Huh, I always heard people calling them queer rights or the specific group it’s affecting

[powerplantanimations]

I'm more of a "I relate with the struggle" rather than a "I relate with the character" which makes it so fun when seeing characters with different beliefs from mine dealing/coping with a situation far greater than everyone. It's like the conflict is the ultimate equalizer. It also adds this meta-layer for me since I constantly ask myself "what would I do in a situation with these weirdos".

The first movie I wanna say that felt was made for me ideology wise HAS to be the newest Pinnochio (the Netflix one). After seeing what Disney had I was like "Wow... they really are worried about their image, huh?". Like they took out the scene where kids drank alcohol, something that should scare children. Meanwhile, the Netflix iteration of Pleasure Island is a Hitler Youth Camp. The kids turn into asses figuratively. I just loved how they played off of how people constantly try to put strings on Pinnochio and get him to conform. Felt refreshing seeing Pinnochio talk about religion in a positive light. Disney's been pussy-footing around that topic in a lot of their media like Moon Knight. SURE they referenced that he was Jewish, but they never elaborated on his father being beaten-up by Neo Nazis or having him talk about his faith (which is VERY important with his character)... which makes me worried for Daredevil's reboot since that was another show that felt tailored made.

Anyway, as for Disney being sleazy... did you know they tried trademarking DAY OF THE DEAD (the Mexican holiday)? They are comically evil lmao. I really hope they don't get out of their latest slump and shut-down for good.

[Katzalcoatl]

I'm more of a "I relate with the struggle" rather than a "I relate with the character" which makes it so fun when seeing characters with different beliefs from mine dealing/coping with a situation far greater than everyone. It's like the conflict is the ultimate equalizer. It also adds this meta-layer for me since I constantly ask myself "what would I do in a situation with these weirdos".

Your comment just made me remember how it was that I identified so much with two characters. It was mainly for their personality, way of thinking, and some of their struggles. They have been the only two cartoon/fictional characters I have genuinly said "hey that's me".

The first one being Amity from "the Owl House" and the second one being Susy from "Summer Time Island". I had completely forgotten about them.
I thank you.
I did however identify with the struggles Jinx from "Arcana" went through.

It is so interesting how a single comment can juggle our memory.
The reason I thank you so much is because you made me remember something very fundamental as an author.
Lately, I had been losing my spark/inpiration and just kept writing to finish my novels. But now I recovered my inspiration.

Thank you thank you thank you. Remembering those 3 things made me return to my origins as an author.

I know to you this simple act was not intended and you didn't mean much. But to me it means the world since I can enjoy writing once more. 🫂

[UrMom]

@Katzalcoatl Ah that's true, also what I said could come off pretty rude to other folks who can't attach themselves to fiction. Sorry about that!

It's easier to connect to concepts and situations, which I guess goes back to relatable experiences. Lol

@AmeTsunami Ho yeah, LGBT+ and queer are the same thing. Philosophy Tube and James Somerton have some pretty good videos on the term. The latter is a reclaimed word that some still see as offensive, but as an umbrella term it's genuinely easier to say AND type, and covers everything way more cleanly than the former. Of course, to each their own, I just personally prefer to use it over LGBT+.

I'm more of a "I relate with the struggle" rather than a "I relate with the character" which makes it so fun when seeing characters with different beliefs from mine dealing/coping with a situation far greater than everyone. It's like the conflict is the ultimate equalizer. It also adds this meta-layer for me since I constantly ask myself "what would I do in a situation with these weirdos".

AH dude, I totally get that! Relating to struggles makes a story way more engaging imo. It definitely gives a universality to a piece of fiction, and when a story can make you SO UPSET you know it's great. Like, Train to Busan will never happen, but man, that movie made me cry so hard over what everyone was going through!

Oh you're talking about Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio, I love that movie! The stop-motion was gorgeous!

Yes! Dumbest shit ever, I'm glad they didn't manage to pay their way into trademarking it. They also took Blue Sky Studios out to pasture after buying it, I assume it was to get rid of competition given how hard they fight to hold the monopoly on American animation, but who knows what the reason was. Doubt they'll ever get shutdown since they're obscenely wealthy, but it would be nice if they took a small hit from their awful live-action remakes.

[Katzalcoatl]

what I said could come off pretty rude to other folks who can't attach themselves to fiction. Sorry about that!

No need to apologize. Everything we read here should be taken with a grain of salt since we may not be able to express our ideas correctly. This can cause many misunderstandings. Especially since there is no body language or tone and we are basically all strangers not knowing each others real personality.

I have to admit I did feel a little jelly when you said that "Everything Everywhere All At Once" was the first movie that felt like it was made for you.
But as you saw, I just remembered that I did identify in one way or another with 3 characters. I just had completely forgotten about them!
It made me extremely happy to remember them.

[NickRowler]

After seeing what Disney had I was like "Wow... they really are worried about their image, huh?". Like they took out the scene where kids drank alcohol, something that should scare children.

I know this is a tangent. But some of these weird changes are caused by the fact that parent groups constantly complain that any minor detail in a film will damage the mind of their 4 year old. I hate how this has turn Disney into trying to be as neutral as possible and walk on egg shells about every issue. Also the film rating system would cause the film to be rated PG-13 or R, due to currently how strict the rating system is when it comes to smoking and underage drinking.

You may also notice other weird details in new films like how parents are no longer evil. Disney has been accused by groups of being "anti-family" so now all parents are good. Any conflict with a parent (or grandparent) gets resolved in the end. It just feels needlessly limiting.

[powerplantanimations]

@Katzalcoatl Awww no probs. Hope you make some great stories!

@UrMom It also makes you cheer for characters you never expect to cheer for. The Street Fighter (not the 1990's movie, the 1976 movie) was crazy where it made you cheer for this dude that you THOUGHT was going to be the villain, but ends up being the protagonist while also making you cheer for a dude you thought was going to be the protagonist but ends up being... well I wouldn't call him a villain. He just HAPPENS to want the main character dead for selling his sister to human trafficking.... which is a PRETTY DAMN GOOD REASON lmao. I never had a final battle confuse me emotionally as much as this movie. I was CHEERING and LAUGHING when the main character was getting beaten. I was only like "OH RIGHT, THIS IS THE GOOD GUY!" when he gets the upperhand. The movie makes a point that these two come from rough backgrounds and does an excellent job turning this conflict into some weird rat race. You also forget that the "villain" was on death row for a reason. So you're like "Wait... what did he do?"

Also yeah I heard Disney has this weird rivalry with Pixar too. I'm just happy we're getting a lot more movies winning Oscars that isn't Disney. Now they have to try (awards are ultimately meaningless, but when it comes to the Oscars, it pushes for more DVD sales).

@NickRowler Which is why I'm thankful Sony owns Spider-Man. We're getting a Rated-R Kraven film. It's gonna suck... but it has Kraven brutally biting someone's face-off. Thank da lawd.

[Iris-Grimoire]

Some non-binary people present themselves as their assigned gender, so i would argue it doesn't count if the person attracted to them doesn't know about the person's gender identity.

Also, some transgender people nailed it with their transition and may look almost indistinguishable from a cisgender person of the opposite sex of a person, so a straight person may feel attracted until they find out about the truth or notice an unexpected bulge or a lack of it.

F1nn5ter, a cis streamer who got banned for adjusting his bra, has entered the chat
It's almost like the more we accept unconventional depictions of gender, the more people get comfortable with looking at pronouns and not caring about the rest of their presentation, and maybe question themselves in a good way!

Back in the topic, I do support not tying yourself to franchises too. AAA content is gonna pander to queer people when it's profitable, and if those laws on the US get any tighter, those depictions are gonna disappear just as quickly. Lower budget is much more reliable, and we've got a whole website here of independent creation!

[SamAndFriends]

As a queer person: Yeah, it's super important to me to be represented in media by respectable (not laughable) characters. Bc the topic might be more easy to understand or to connect for cis/hetero people when they can see a character they like in a show. To understand that different sexualities or genders are valid. To see and feel what the struggles of queer people are.
Or for closeted or questioning people to see a rolemodel to help them find themselfs.
Thats why we should celebrate them.

[TheLemmaLlama]

Let people celebrate whatever they want, I say. I can certainly understand the excitement of finally seeing a portrayal of your experiences that actually feels like the author gets it, when you've seen so many others miss the mark. But I don't like saying 'it's important to celebrate X' like it's a mandate; something that people should do for the sake of advancing LGBT acceptance or something. Art is not activism. (Or rather, an individual author or fan can use use art as a medium for activism, but they shouldn't police how other fans engage with the same material!)

Besides, LGBT isn't a monolith. Just because someone falls under the LGBTQ+ umbrella doesn't mean they get excited about (good) representations of every LGBTQ+ character. I'm dying for a story that points out the difference between sexual stimulation and 'pleasure' and how weird it is that they're used synonymously, but I don't have a particularly elevated appreciation for good gay or trans characters over any other well-written character :]