Does everyone have the right to tell certain stories?

[emkay]

The tricky word here is 'right'. Technically, we all have the 'right' to write whatever we want? But like you said, should we? That's where I disagree.

I think creators need to accept that some things are off limits. You can be a white professor and spend years doing research on what it's like to, for example, be a black woman, but you will never actually know what it's like because you aren't a black woman. You do not live that reality or have that experience.

And you have to acknowledge that when you write a story about the issues black women face, that narrative consists of your opinions as a white person. And those opinions can easily become 'fact' for your readers. They will believe that your narrative is the true Black Woman Experience when it's not. And your opinions speak over the ones of actual black women, whether you intend it or not. That's part of your privilege.

That is part of how misconceptions and stereotypes are spread, which is why this idea applies to marginalized communities -- race, gender, sexuality, disability, class, etc. Regarding that one post, I don't think soldiers are considered marginalized communities. But there are certain aspects to being a soldier that are -- if they're disabled, for instance.

Many soldiers have physical disabilities and mental disorders like PTSD. There are characters with PTSD in the story I'm working on. But my story isn't about what it's like living with PTSD; that's just a part of the character's life that exists in the story as well. I would never write a story about a main character struggling with PTSD, because I'm not qualified to and I don't want to speak over the real experiences of other people.

I think people disagree because they feel it limits their creative freedom. But still, people have to realize that 'staying in your lane' isn't just to avoid controversy, it's to protect others. If there was no discrimination or marginalization, I'd say that anything would be up for grabs. But that's not the world we live in and we have to acknowledge that. =/

[LordVincent]

I think we need to recognize something real quick tho:

• Allies who don't talk over or misrepresent a community are GREAT and the stories and support they provide can be SUPER HELPFUL for our fights for rights.
• On the other hand, some people that belong to a community can actually be harmful to it. Examples: Lesbians and gays rejecting trans people from the LGBT community, trans people rejecting nonbinary people from the trans community, people with internalized sexism, racism, homophobia or transphobia harming other people within these respective communities, or in the case of trans people there are some detransitioned people who get too personal about their experiences and try to start some weird online crusades of destroying the trans community and trying to make people believe all trans people will "regret" their transitions and that it's just a "trend". Oh and then there's the whole thing where some gay people refuse to date bi people because they have some idea in their mind that they're unreliable sex monsters who wanna fuck everything in sight.

Personally I feel what truly matters, bottom line, is the respect and understanding an author has of a topic. It needs to be proportional to how deeply the topic is looked into in the story or how important it is for the plot.

[Wumbl]

A story is a story.
To say that an author has to fit certain criteria to even be allowed to tell the story they want to tell is completely unfair.
If you told a white person they couldn't write a story because a black person ought to instead that would be outright racist.
Nobody has the right to tell anyone what they can and can't write.
It's a basic human right.

[skicoak]

I had a teacher in college that made a salient point about perspective in storytelling. It's a bit simplistic but the point is valid....if you limit story telling to only those that can speak to an authentic perspective, there would be no Watership Down, no Superman, nothing but the most basic realism in storytelling. Seems silly but it makes a point that applies to all fiction.

[NickRowler]

I think if someone puts enough effort into telling a story and have good motives they should tell it.

The film Paris is Burning is about intercity drag queens with most of them being black. But the director is a white lesbian woman. she is not part of black gay male culture but she took the effort to learn and understand her subject matter.

On the other hand you have stuff like exploitation. Where someone may use a topic to profit off of it without properly representing it. I heard someone who disliked Dream Daddy because they felt it was exploitative. They felt by adding the gay and trans characters, it was pandering to a market who were hungry for anything with gay or trans representation. And they felt that Game Grumps (who are straight) were using it to just make a profit. Yes, not everyone may agree with this and yes, some gay men have praised the game, but it is something to maybe think about.

[DiegoPalacios]

As long as they understand the subject at hand and don`t touch the topic in a prejudiced way i think is okay.

[SpavVy]

Anyone can write whatever they want and should write whatever they want. This is fiction, where we let our imaginations run wild to create unique stories for us and others to enjoy without being held back. I have some characters that are lgbt, have mental illness or dissabilities and from other ethnic groups although these things are not the story's main focus. I have spent over eight years developing a cast that my readers have already fallen in love with and I will keep them as they are even if I have never struggled with what some of these issues myself. Things will not progress if we try to shut other people out, we shouldn't do that. Instead we should do our best to help educate others on said issues to give them a better understanding especially if they really want to learn and approach said issues as respectfully and accurately as they can.
Honestly I am very dissapointed to see that fellow creators would want others to "stay in their own lane" especially on a site like this...

[Vikiro_Hop]

Woof, that was one hell of a thread.

Well I am in agreement with a lot of you in this thread once again. A great writer can write almost whatever the hell they want and get away with it. Writing is a craft, and the craft will usually determine whether or not the story was shit. I think that a good writer will know their limits, but also overcome trivial matters like not being what they are writing about.

I'd argue that empathy doesn't require some magic number of oppression fun bucks or tightly woven personal history with whatever group you are trying to relate to. It requires imagination. Imagination possibly enriched by passion and research. If you care about something and get down to it's core I think you will find the same human patterns you have been going through your whole life.

I'll just wrap this up by saying nothing prohibits anyone from writing a story, and I don't think personal history with the subject automatically makes your story more valid. (In fact being too close to the material is a concept that has precedence) If you write a terrible story with flat shitty characters that offend whatever community you tried to represent then you will get shit and deserve every pile. If you do a really good job and not only move the people represented in your stories, but everyone, then you deserve praise regardless of your background.

At the end of the day we are all squishy meat sacks with electric signals and hormones pumping through us leading very different, but not all together separate lives. Our ability to empathize through suffering, pain, joy and laughter will bring us closer together than to set up arbitrary rules on who gets to do or say what.

Hail santa

[Mr_B]

I know I'm going to be reiterating a lot of points made by the awesome people posting above me, but here's my input on this:

Does everyone have the right to tell any story they want? I think so. There's no reason why I, for instance, couldn't sit down and write a story about the suffering of Aboriginal Australians. What people often conveniently forget when talking about rights, though, is that it's not a one sided coin. Every right you have comes with a responsibility that must be fullfilled in order for your right to be exercised and respected. In my example, I would be under a tacit obligation to do every last bit of research necessary in order to paint as detailed and accurate picture as possible. It's my duty to do so, and if I don't feel up to it or formally equipped to take it on, then I shouldn't.

Will that story be as good as, or better than, a story told by a person that lives it? No, I don't think it ever can be. It can come close, mind you, because there are incredibly empathetic people out there with the ability to really get into the minds of their subjects and express their emotions vividly. But, at the end of the day, they're just abstracting a story instead of telling it. Living through something arms you with a whole other level of experience and understanding that just adds a level of detail that cannot be matched. punkarsenic's comment that mentions higher resolution is a very illustrative way to explain this.

Should people be encouraged to tell their own stories? Absolutely. But, at the same time, people from outside whatever circle we're talking about shouldn't be discouraged to tell similar stories. Here's the thing: people who are hateful, who write for the exact reasons previous posters frown upon (racism, objectifying, stereotyping) are the kind of people that have no input in a discussion like this, because it implies a level of consideration and respect that is above their current capacity. It literally flies over their heads and they're going to write their horrible, horrible story anyway. But incredibly gifted, nuanced writers can act as allies, as has been said prior, and allies from outside the group can be incredibly important. When different authors from different backgrounds write about a topic, it really hammers home to observers that the issue in question is very important and that it should be discussed and thought about. Their stories cannot ever live up to the ones told by people who actually went through everything themselves, but they have their place and their value.

And, just to add a bit of footnote to this: would I ever write a story about the plight of Aboriginal Australians? No. I don't think it's my place to tell one and I don't think I'd do a good job at it. It would require incredible amounts of research that I've neither the time nor the ability to do, and this renders me unable to tell it by default. Also, I'd rather just tell my own stories, ones that speak about who I am as a person. But, that doesn't mean that there aren't people out there who aren't Aboriginal Australians who could tell an amazing, riveting story about it that can serve as a companion to the experiences of the people inside that group.

[punkarsenic]

I've held seances. I've channeled dead people, or appeared to channel dead people. I don't know that one of them died of a heart attack but I feel chest pains anyway. A widow asks me, asks her husband, why he had to go away. Another woman, I tell her without prompting that she should stop dusting my bowling trophies. Just throw them away, her husband tells her. Move on with her life. And I feel like I've loved this woman for years. And I feel like I'm saying goodbye for the last time.

That's the level of immersion I'm talking about.

okay how about this: id rather let a marginalised person tell their own story than engage in hippy dippy nonsense. your perception of the role of a writer is a lot more spiritual than mine, and that is our fundamental disagreement.

who the hell is the authority on gays? who has the responsibility to talk about women? who is the male authority? cause I have to talk to him about a story about a manly mannobody is and authority on anything,

gays are! women do! men dont count theyre not an oppressed class get with the program!

and just cause the guy from moonlight made a beautiful gay movie doesn't mean you can't make a beautiful gay movie,

you missed the entire point. never reply to me in this thread again, just reread what ive written and keep your gob shut until youre not too stubborn to understand.

People have been writing and putting gay characters in their work for years now. I really don't get why now of all a sudden you can't. Gays are as mainstream as you can get if you're talking about lgbt people lol

the point is one million billion miles over your head.

[punkarsenic]

im just gonna clarify some things:

1: i think white people should have poc in their stories, and can make stories about racism. i think straight people should have gay people in their stories, and talk about homophobia. i believe men should have women in their stories, and talk about misogyny, there are some very good examples of this, too.

2: this is less about ability, and more about responsability and respect. its about talking over and for a group that can speak for themselves.

3: its not about any old story. its about the specific narratives that are A: complicated. B: involving intercommunity conflicts, of the community you dont belong to. and C: deeply personal.

this is not 'does a straight person have the right to tell a story about homophobia?' its 'is it respectful for a straight person to write a story that delves deep into what it means to be gay in society, and provide that story as an authority on that narrative?' 'is it respectful for a man to tell a story about a woman's experience with surviving male violence?' its about the intimate, complex narratives, and whether they should be coopted for entertainment by outsiders, and what the effects of that are.

and now, really. if i post again, someone ban me because im this close to cussing someone out, and thats not good.

[joe_galindez]

I've never felt a burning need to write about Aboriginal Australians, for example, but if I did, it would mean I was personally affected in some way. Maybe I had friends among them. Maybe I lived among them. Wouldn't that mean that I became part of their story?

If I am compelled to write about them (while never pretending that I'm one of them) doesn't that mean that the story has chosen me? Maybe it's too spiritual, but I do think that stories can exist independently from writers, at least to some degree.

[Mr_B]

That really is a very spiritual way to look at it, and I guess that it makes sense that this is where we diverge. I don't think that a story can ever "choose" you, it just doesn't have the capacity. You may be inspired to write about a particular thing because you have friends or know people who are associated with it, but it is you and you alone who makes the choice whether to commit to that story. I would say that authors are vessels of stories that pop into their heads, but willingly so.

As for being a part of their story, I guess it would depend on how much you went through with them. I mean, it's possible to be closely connected to an oppressed or marginalized group without ever feeling the prejudice or mental stress they go through - it just doesn't impact you, because you are still an outsider, now matter how closely connected. Like, my closest friends know full well the realities of living as a gay person where we are and can assume that it takes its toll on a human being, but only I know the exact thoughts I get and the feelings I experience.

That's what it's all about. As I've said before, someone with high levels of empathy could probably come pretty close to zooming in on the experience, but if they never actually felt the consequences and lived with them, they're still going to be detached from it, if only a little. Doesn't mean their story wouldn't have value, though, or that they shouldn't write it. You can often learn a lot about something and see it in a new light by observing it through a different lens.

[silverraven0]

Well, uh I don't even know if I should write this but...
This is what I know.

Don't we all write stories because we love writing it or drawing it?

And plus, why does you need to live in someone shoes to write about something? It's sad, you know.

You know, where are those stories came from?
Imagination.

Without imagination, most stories would feel dead (uh, did you get the point? I don't exactly know how to explain it).

The thing is, you could write whatever you want if you have your pen or pencil or keyboard or phone if you had that one thing. Imagination.

I'm an Asian whose atm writing a story about a mute gay European (likely) prices that feel rejected (somewhat?) by everyone in some fairytale settings(no, its not up in tapas yet), which, seriously I know no s*it about.

But I do know that feeling. Rejected by society. So I did put a bit of myself inside the story I write.

You could say that I am somebody who because of... life (yeah...) couldn't go anywhere (somewhat), and don't know anything about the outside world (?).

That's why I do my research on Google, Wikipedia, yahoo answer, YouTube, random website and blog, dictionaries (yes, English based dictionaries)...

But when whatever I want to write couldn't be found anywhere online, I have to decide to wether I should take it off completely from the story where it would affect the characters, or not. If I decide to just go 's*rew it', then its time for my imagination to take over.

I have tons of writing prompts up in my binder (?) That's come from, well, my imagination.

Most of it is unrelated to me, but at some point, I understand that most of it have some part of me inside. And yeah, most if it is pretty much f*cked up stories ideas, but I have the feeling that 'I understand', if it's made any sense to you.

If there's a day when you couldn't write stories because you know nothing about since you're not 'experience' it, I would be very devastated.

The thing is, when you are a person like me who have nothing except my imagination and ms.word and medibang in my android, living s*ck. Because I have nothing. Nothing.

I'm not even a very good artist or storyteller, but I did it anyway, because in this life of mine, that's the only good things i have in my life.

I don't know if my point get crossed or not since my English is as bad as you can see but I hope you understand what I'm feeling. I'm sorry if you think I'm just ranting unnecessarily. I've been thinking too much how to write this I don't know anymore.

[IdiotWithPencil]

men dont count theyre not an oppressed class get with the program!

wow, so men don't matter, thanks for telling us how you actually feel
I'm done with this sexist argument

come back when you stop being sexist and then we can talk

also thanks for cutting out the part where I say that you where denying the director of moonlight his hard work and boil down the movies success on the fact that the director was a black gay man

I mean why should people think they can write any story if they work hard?, no only those who live and experience can write it, so let's us eliminate all movies,books and comics that the author hasn't ever personally experience

[IdiotWithPencil]

ok I'm gonna give out my closing piece and stop talking before I start a full on flame war with punkarsenic.

first, you don't need to experience something to write something, being Latino I've seen millions of movies that talk about the culture and living in Latin america and they have been respectful and authentic, the writers, actors and producers where all american, the Idea that you have to live it to write it is nonsensical, stupid and all around moronic.

now I think if you're gonna write about these subjects you need to be sure your doing it justice, research interview and empathy are your tools and you need to use them.

also helping minorities is great, but saying that only minorities should/can write about minorities is segregist and all around damaging to minorities communities in general.

we want to write our stories but we also want other people to write about us, that's how culture grows, that's how we evolve our culture and that's how we get understanding in this world, and just cause the author is from another ethnicity,race,sex, or any other bullshit, should not and is not an argument that will damage or empower the qualities of their work

cause in the end if you make a disrespectful and shitty attempt for a story, saying I'm gay or a women or a man or black or chinese or anything, you still made a disrespectful story

that is all, can we please stop focusing on what the author is and focus on what the story is?

[NickRowler]

men dont count theyre not an oppressed class get with the program!

You need to be careful how you word this. Men may not be oppressed based on their birth sex but they may be oppressed based on other factors. Them being a gay man, a black man, a disabled man, etc.

[LordVincent]

Okay everyone is throwing around harsh extreme words and we should probably calm down a bit and avoid the "black and white" mindset. The truth often lies somewhere in the grays.

I think what punk said was messily worded however you're forgetting an important part to the point: White cis straight men are NOT an oppressed class.

They matter. But they're not oppressed.
The difficulties men face are actually the result of oppression against women.

The woman often gets the kid in custody disputes: Yeah, this is based upon the historically sexist idea that the woman is best suited as a caregiver tied to the stove whereas the man is better suited for bringing her money and making a success of himself in the world outside the home.
Men aren't allowed to show feelings: This is because we as a society still associate feelings with femininity, which we by extension deem bad, dumb and weak. Men are seen as good, intelligent and strong. A man who displays feminine traits is therefore seen as a bad man.
Men aren't taken seriously when raped, especially if raped by women: This is based on the idea that women should be innocent little flowers who aren't interested in sex, and that "real" men are strong enough to defend themselves against rape. If the man isn't strong enough, then there's the whole tie again to femininity and how it's "bad and weak".

If you take away sexism, you will take away the difficulties men face because of it. And honestly, you would take away a lot of problems that gay and trans people face as well.
But the point here is: Men are not oppressed on the basis of them being men. Men who face the results of oppression face it on the grounds of treading close to the feminine and thus they get a small taste of the shitpile caused by societal sexism.

Making the comparison of "who has male authority if there is a gay authority?" was irrelevant and rather insulting. It's like saying "but the slave owner actually has carpal tunnel syndrome from all the whipping he's done! Who's gonna tell his story?!" and it's a big reason that this discussion turned so heated to begin with. It would probably be for the best if everyone, on either side, would think twice before they post. Not only about what they are intending to say, but also what it sounds like they're saying.

I'd like to restate that I think anyone can write pretty much any story, as long as they realize the responsibility this entails. I think the reason punkarsenic has such strong feelings about this is that she has seen the way lesbian media is treated, and the simple fact right now is that lesbian media is NOT treated with respect when done by cis men 90% of the time. Creators are NOT recognizing the responsibility it entails to tell such a story, and it DOES result in stereotypes being spread and enforced. It definitely hurts lesbians all across the earth.

Now I am of the belief that the solution to this is to add more media to the mix, made by creators who do understand this responsibility, regardless of who they are and what they have gone through. I do not believe the solution lies in scaring away potentially positive content just because it happens to be made by a straight person. The more helpful content we can add to the pile to push out the destructive content, the better.

Bottom line remains: Be respectful! And if you have privilege, understand and recognize that privilege. If you're told you are misrepresenting a group you don't belong to, take that seriously and have an extra look into it. That's what a creator will do if they actually care.

[ratique]

[ratique]

We are closing this thread on request. Thank you everyone for posting, it was another fruitful discussion.

Cheers,
Rat