Does your comic pass the Bechdel Test?

NagashiKhan 2016-04-12 02:05:04 UTC #41

Mmmm, lemme see..

1 who cares?
2- who cares?
and 3- who cares? You certainly shouldn't!

Now, lemme apologize for being salty, but things like this grind my gears a little, if you couldn't tell. =P

All honesty though, what a silly test. You should not ever, EVER be so concerned with such a thing in your media, unless we're talking indoctrination. And, no, we're not talking indoctrination. We're talking 'representation', which is as inconsequential as whether or not a background character has an ear piercing in his left ear. Who cares? Exactly, nobody does, and nobody should! Yet, this is a thing.

Especially considering the fact that pandering to such a... a mindset, I guess you could call it, could potentially ruin your comic/media, then why? Why does this test even exist? One would think to guilt trip those who don't pass the test for somebody's strange obsession with being represented, eh? But that's me scrutinizing, I can never say for sure why it exists in truth, I don't know Bechdel personally, hahaha.

To balance this all, I must say that there's nothin WRONG with passing this test, in fact that sort of thing could possibly enrich an artist's work. Absolutely, I'm not opposed to having interesting women characters and having them interact, in fact I feel that should be a given, which is another reason why I feel this test is silly. Why is the 3rd criteria that they cannot be speaking about another man? As if that's what creators have in mind when writing women, they just GOTTA be talking about another man, right? Lemme stop my eyes from rolling right out of their sockets.

Let creators make what they will, and let God be their judge as to whether they were being honest and true in their story telling. This test either accomplishes nothing, or it is designed to make creators feel bad about their work, whether they deserve it or not. Either way, for one to present this test makes their motives questionable, ahahaha!

Take no offense, though, this is only my two cents. I could be 1000000% wrong and wouldn't mind admitting so. Take it with a grain of salt and yadda yadda yadda, this that and the next, so on and so forth. I'm not angry, I'm just not on board, and I don't think you should be either XP

novasiri 2016-04-12 02:06:16 UTC #42

This is a hard one for Aether Eternius... really hard. Mostly due to the premise of the primary race being all non-binary with no physical genders outside of how they choose to appear. there's one established female, and one established male. Everyone else is non-binary or unconfirmed (Isilmo who is a baby dragon and Timo is a mimic.).

I have one established female character, and several who look and act female, but are non-binary. Said character is Kanami, Makumbo's older sister, fire mage, and skilled demolitionist.
Kanami does a lot of talking, and stands as one fo the three main character focuses of AE. She's easily the blunt voice of reason, or the sassy harasser depending on who's trying to talk over her/cheat her out of information.
She tends to keep her head straight and on point to the happenings around her. The last thing on her mind is men, if anything it would be on how to dispose of the body if they even touched her. She's mostly working to wrap her head around the weird world her younger sibling has dragged her into.

Bonus 4: Uhh... Does odd colored skin count (blue, green, made of stone or gemstones.. what about scales, or jelly?)? Does being a dragon or made of smoke count? I don't know how to answer this one... Kanami's race is human, but her ethnicity is unknown by pretty much everyone. And if you ask her, she'll likely set you on fire.

williamjbowles 2016-04-12 02:34:08 UTC #43

Well my comic, Outcast Kingdom passes the first two, but somewhat fails the third one (sort of). I'm only 20-something pages in, so they haven't had a lot of time to talk to each other, aside from the mission.

Actually... they don't even talk about a man, just the job they have to do. So I think that's a pass-- even if only just.

But more over, I think it passes what the test is supposed to encourage-- stories with quality female characters. (Or at least, I think it does. At least, it will once I've gotten a little farther along in the story.)

PotooGryphon 2016-04-12 03:02:58 UTC #44

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the test either so I can feel your saltiness. Honestly, I don't pass the Bechdel in real life, I'm surrounded by guys in rl.

Also, I cringe at how it's used as a yard stick in some circles to judge a story.

Agree, however, I want to also add I see nothing wrong with women talking about men. It is something that happens in real life on occasions. Girls talk to each other about their husbands, boyfriends, brothers, or father. Males do make up half of the world's population after all. Sometimes that's how two females can relate to each and form a friendships, by commiserating together on what crazy thing the male(s) in their life have done. I've never, personally, seen that as a negative to a story.

We meet more female cast members in this currently releasing issue. From issue 1-2 it was mostly from Oops' perspective and escaping the city, issue 3-5 we meet and get to know Talon and Malice, the first two females in the series. However, Talon and Malice don't talk to each other due to Malice holding a strong grudge to Talon and how the rest of the pack coddles her.

Nope... And there won't be much opportunity for Talon to talk to the new female cast members in issue 6 due to... [redacted for spoilers]

... Nope, however, if there were a scene of Talon talking with new female cast members, she probably would have to take a moment to talk about Oops since he's a mute and she'd have to help explain that with them.

hm, there's other races in Oops but I'm not sure if that fully counts. There are female elves, rock people, and humans. The elves have a darker tint to their skin and the rock people are made of, well, rocks, but they are not exactly a POC type character just a different race.

Later in the story, when it's comes naturally and fits with the progression of the story it'll gain more female diversity.

keii4ii 2016-04-12 03:47:49 UTC #45

The problem is that while it SHOULD be a given, it's rather uncommon (starting to change, but we're still not there). That's what this test is trying to prove. It doesn't say anything about any single story. It's not intended to be a yardstick for individual stories. Rather, it's all about the bigger picture.

You could fail and still have a great story with good diversity; you could pass with flying colors and still have badly written cardboard female characters. I don't think anyone here is trying to dispute that.

Depending on how strict we get, I don't think my comic passes this test at this time, and it might never ever pass it. I'm not sure. I'm not concerned. If someone tells me to change my comic to make it pass the test, I will laugh. But that doesn't mean I laugh at the test as a whole. It serves a purpose -- just not the one you think it's trying to serve.

agentfink 2016-04-12 03:58:36 UTC #46

This article is for film, but I thought it appropriate to share for this thread.
2,000 screenplays, Broken Down by Gender and Age
http://polygraph.cool/films/index.html

scythe 2016-04-12 04:08:43 UTC #47

See, I think this is a far more valuable resource with which to start a discussion than a 'test' that even the proponents of admit doesn't mean anything whether you pass or fail. Thanks for sharing.

williamjbowles 2016-04-12 04:27:52 UTC #48

I agree that the Bechdel test isn't in any way perfect, or even any kind of accurate test (many great stories, even those with quality female characters, happen to fail the test (I have watched, read, and written numerous such stories), while there are demeaning, sexist, trashy stories that manage to pass on a technicality).
But I think it has some value. It's far from any sort of real criteria for quality, but it does make a fair point about women in certain forms of media being depicted as little more than accessories for men.

Does that make sense?

Just thought I'd add my two cents.

shazzbaa 2016-04-12 04:51:08 UTC #49

Representation doesn't have to be priority number one, and you don't have to care about it if you don't want to, but the assertion that NOBODY should care seems a little unfair!

I look at the bechdel test as just a tool for thinking about something that we tend to forget to think about! Like the Mary Sue Litmus Test or the Harvey/Renee Index, it's not a judge of quality, just a way to examine trends in your own storytelling and ponder your own decisions. Did I make all these characters male just out of habit and could some of them be different, or is this a choice that serves the story that shouldn't be changed? Just because either answer is valid doesn't mean that the question isn't worth asking. ;u;

I definitely agree with you that shoving a character that you don't relate to and have no place for into a story is no good!! I'm all for just keeping eyes open for unrecognised possibilities, but always within the needs of the story.

My comic, for a long time, didn't pass at all and never would, and I was okay with that. While I was thinking about it, though, I started looking at the characters who had yet to be introduced, and literally made a pros-cons list of what it would change in the story and the character if I changed their gender. For some of them I decided, they were better off as guys. For one, I actually found the character was way better as a girl! But if none of the changes had been for the better, I would've just left everyone as-is.
If Runewriters passes now, it's probably kinda on a technicality (she's a major character, but still not one of the main three), but that's okay. I'm happy with the decision and I think it helped the story as a whole!

This is a bit of a tangent, but on a similar note -- I once read a piece of advice for screenwriters that said to go through your script, take all your Extras That Get Lines, and make half of them women, because for those roles it usually doesn't matter. It was meant for gender equality in the field of acting (it's actually harder for ladies to get background/bit parts with lines because screenwriters tend to make those parts male without thinking) but it's been a cool thing to think about while comicking, too! I have a lot of what I call "NPCs" in my comic, where they're important characters for like a chapter and that's it, and this is definitely a thought I could apply more often to them.

scythe 2016-04-12 04:57:08 UTC #50

Well, that's a bit of a problem, because this test does nothing to distinguish whether those women are indeed being depicted as accessories for men, or simply accessories for the story.

Nor does it address situations where the genders are reversed. It's essentially trying to paint a very thin, specific line, with the broadest brush possible. The only reason anyone even gives it any credence is because that thin line does exist, there are fewer stories based around groups of women than around groups of men, but is this silly, arbitrary test the way to go about talking about /addressing that?

Whenever you start with a conclusion and then formulate up a 'method' to confirm said conclusion, your process is flawed, and any data you gather from then on is at best, questionable.

Dozzer 2016-04-12 05:32:41 UTC #51

Hmmm, quite the discourse to come out of this thread. My series only passes 2 of the 3, and it passes the POC bonus question (IMO being "of color", the PCness of "person of color" feels a bit awkward).

I will say that, while this is an interesting test with lots of truth, it's probably altered my storytelling little to none. I wanna write what comes natural and what appeals to me. I feel it will, in the end, tell a truer, more convincing story. This test is good for literature study, but if it becomes a "yardstick" that alters the story's core to pass the test, the story sorta becomes a lie.

It's no accident my protagonist is a dude. I feel I can tell a stronger story (especially since my storytelling is an extension of my knowledge, experiences, and values). I'm not saying guys can't tell the story of a girl or that girls can't tell the story of a guy but, like I said, it's what came natural and what I've decided to lay out on the tablet.

Hmm, if there was a time I'd be triggered is if this test was applied in a strict, empirical way that governed content for the sake of pointing fingers at those who've never considered the test.

Just tell stories. If your core values want to shape literary discourse to be more representative or inclusive, tell that story.

maxzaguishi 2016-04-12 06:19:16 UTC #52

https://tapastic.com/series/WHITE-PALADIN-
my comic I think it passes the test
He is some youngsters with special abilities... and
has many female characters, have many conversations accounts and some funny stories that develop more the series and characters

Hannes 2016-04-12 07:09:42 UTC #53

Hi, here is my Comic: Of Stars Profaned
Ouch! I fail hard! I never even thought about this. The Comic I am working on atm does pass the test, so maybe it was just a coincidence. It's kinda interesting, anyway.
... What is this test all about, btw.? are there more tests like this out there?

jacintawibowo 2016-04-12 08:35:18 UTC #54

That is hard! I mentioned in a reply to someone else that if a character is genderless but uses a feminine pronoun then it counts (like in Steven Universe with the Crystal Gems). So I'm okay with that =)
The skin color question is hard too- I kinda lean towards that (I'll call it) "Monster skintone" doesn't count. Like, Hulk has green skin but is not a person of color, in the same way Bizzaro isn't a person of color for having gray-dead zombie like skin. However! If their features are drawn in a way that equates to an equivalent of an "earth race", then I would count it. Think of it as a character design read. Garnet (from Steven Universe) may have red/purple skin, but her features indicate a black woman's features. Hope that explains it =)

The test sheds light on a commonality that many stories can't seem to pass. Well-written women don;t have to pass the test, but doing so is certainly a step towards the right direction =) I mean, it would be nice if we get stories with more ladies in them that aren't just about us being love interests all the time!

That's cool! Thank you for sharing =)

This test wasn't to judge the quality of anybody webcomics! Like I mentioned several times by now: passing the test does not determine the quality of your story. People thinking that passing this test means "quality storytelling" or anything of "valuable resource to start discussion" is a weird tangent on their part. This test was literally to check whether your comic has more than one lady who talk to each other about something other than a guy. Anything else like dialogue, story construction, pacing, I'm not discussing.

"What comes naturally" can be quite a dodgy thing to say. Since we're surrounded by all these let's face it- white, male led narratives, when we write stories we end up writing about white male leads. I came from an international school and my mentor has observed that even if those students came from diverse backgrounds they will still write typical white male leads, because "it came naturally". All of the characters I drew in highschool were white, despite me coming from an Asian country. That too, was because "it came naturally". I think what's to discuss here is: why is it when "it comes naturally" the result is a story without more than one woman talking to each other about something other than a guy. Why is that such a low bar to meet, yet so many films and stories fail it miserably? That's what we should be talking about.

Hi there! This test came from a comic artist who was talking to her friend about films! It sparked a discussion about how women were treated in film, but it can apply to other storytelling mediums. Not passing the test brings up interesting questions, like: why do we have only one (or none!) female characters in a story? Why is it when we DO have more than one, why do they not talk to each other? And so on! It's a fun test to keep in mind. =)
Another variation is a test I heard somewhere about POC characters talking to each other about something other than a white person (though I can't remember the name of that test!)

jacintawibowo 2016-04-12 09:19:43 UTC #55

That's the thing. When you say "who cares" it shows.
It IS a silly test. That's the whole point. That it's a such a low set bar that even ten hour long trilogies can't pass. How ridiculous is that? I even mentioned this in my post: passing the test does not determine the quality of your story. Lord of the Rings is an amazing story! The only thing the Bechdel test says about it is that despite being a long sprawling epic with several intense characters, it somehow manages to fail at getting two of their lady characters to meet and talk to each other.

I care. Representation is important. Representation is what inspired Mae Jemison to become THE FIRST African American woman to travel space. She saw Nichelle Nichols on Star Trek and was inspired to become an astronaut. Gail Simone saw Yvonne Craig play as a red haired Batgirl on TV, and it inspired her to be more confident and write for comics in the future. She's now the leading lady of DC. Linda Sue Park's book, "A Long Walk to Water" inspired CHILDREN to raise money through walkathons and selling wristbands for "Water for Sudan". They raised more than one million dollars.
There are countless stories of black girls feeling ugly about themselves over their skintone and hair. A heartbreaking story I heard from my mentor was her black niece seeing Tiana the Disney Princess on TV. She was still a baby, and yet seeing Tiana on TV made her say "she looks like me!" she knew it was something special. Heck, when Avatar the Last Airbender the tv show came out, it made me actually proud to be asian. I never felt like I could be in a story because all I saw as a kid where white people in stories. But with ATLA, it showed asians could be heroes and villains too. Crazy right?
Sure, you don't care. But a lot of people out there do. We want to see ourselves in these stories. How come white men are allowed to be featured in stories countless times and women are just supposed to accept that they're always depicted as: the love interest, jobless, and having no lady friends to talk to. Why are our narratives SO interlinked with men's lives that we can't seem to talk about anything else? Why can't WE go on adventures? Why can't WE go to space? Why can't we save the damsel in distress? Why can't we be the monsters? Why are we the ones sexualized? Why do women actors at the age of 30 begin to lose their career because "nobody wants to write about 30 year old women"? Why is it so hard for actors and actresses of color to find acting jobs in the US beyond racial stereotyping? Probably because people don't care abut us, right?

I never brought up pandering. This isn't about target audience. And yet again, I am not judging quality of storytelling. That is a tangent you decided to bring up (there's even a disclaimer up there in my original post, guys!)

Also, why does this test exist? Lemme grab a quote from Escher Girls because they sum it up nicely:
"Escher Girls, The Bechdel Test, Bikini Armor, etc, are all catchy terms, and great things to keep in mind when writing fiction with women in it, but it’s not as simple as just “not doing this one thing”. These phrases and ideas are meant to highlight specific issues about the way women are written and drawn in fiction and to open up a discussion about the larger picture of how women are portrayed. The Bechdel Test is meant to point out how few women have roles and how even fewer of them have stories of their own that don’t revolve around men. Escher Girls is about showing the prevalence of female characters being contorted or dressed in ways that maximize titillation over function. They are symptoms, not the cause, and addressing just one of them once doesn’t fix the underlying issue. Change comes by challenging ourselves to not just settle at “my princess punches people before being captured” or “the male hero’s love interest talks to her female friend about dogs at one point”, but to be willing to examine the overall way we’re depicting women in our fiction, how many there are, and how they’re situated. Centaur women, battle bikinis, and the boobs and butt pose are the beginning of the discussion, not the end."

I'm not guilt tripping anyone! I even wrote a little disclaimer saying that if you didn't pass the test, it's okay. I never said anything like "IF YOU DON'T PASS THE BECHDEL TEST MAY HELLFIRE RAIN DOWN ON YOUR WEBCOMIC". Not at all, this was just something I wanted to check out.
Also: "strange obsession with being represented". Wow. Just wow. I vaguely mention being sad that I don't see my race ever depicted in media and apparently I'm "obsessed". Wow.

Actually! Scripting classes used to teach their students to "not write about women having conversations with other women" and that if they do, "it has to be about men" because if they don't, "the audience will get bored." So yes, they were actually thinking about it.
We may not have been in these classes but we are affected by the stories that generation created.
The third criteria measures how the women in stories are often interlinked with men's lives. We're always the girl friend, the wife, the sister, the mom, what have you. How come men can be talking to each other about something other than a woman, yet whenever women talk, it's about men? Why can't we talk about stealing the declaration of independence? We don't talk about boys all the time!

jacintawibowo 2016-04-12 09:34:02 UTC #56

I never said there was anything wrong about talking about men! Funny how you assume that.
What the Bechdel test is addressing is why women's lives seem to revolve around men to the point that whenever women speak, it's about men.
Also saying stuff like "I don't pass the Bechdel test in real life" is a poor argument. In stories, we can have dragons, gryiffins, fairies, hobbits,and a bunch of crazy things that don't happen in real life. Yet when we talk about women talking to each other about something other than a guy, our imagination goes at a blank. How come you don't bring this question to dragons?
Also girls talking to other girls about something other than guys does happen in real life. I've seen it, I've been a part of it, so there ya go! I'll serve as proof to that!

I've mentioned to another user that what I'm gonna call "Monster Skin" doesn't count. Only if the features are humanoid and relate closely enough to a POC human race (like Steven Universe Crystal Gems) will I count that more closely as a pass.

That's good! I'll be looking forward to that. I think adding POC characters and women is a good thing to think about. Especially in kid-lit and all-ages stuff, it's a very influential time to talk about this.

jacintawibowo 2016-04-12 09:35:18 UTC #57

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this!

and that's perfectly fine!

jacintawibowo 2016-04-12 09:46:08 UTC #58

I'm going to post this quote again because it explains it really well (this is from the blog Escher Girls):
"Escher Girls, The Bechdel Test, Bikini Armor, etc, are all catchy terms, and great things to keep in mind when writing fiction with women in it, but it’s not as simple as just “not doing this one thing”. These phrases and ideas are meant to highlight specific issues about the way women are written and drawn in fiction and to open up a discussion about the larger picture of how women are portrayed. The Bechdel Test is meant to point out how few women have roles and how even fewer of them have stories of their own that don’t revolve around men. Escher Girls is about showing the prevalence of female characters being contorted or dressed in ways that maximize titillation over function. They are symptoms, not the cause, and addressing just one of them once doesn’t fix the underlying issue. Change comes by challenging ourselves to not just settle at “my princess punches people before being captured” or “the male hero’s love interest talks to her female friend about dogs at one point”, but to be willing to examine the overall way we’re depicting women in our fiction, how many there are, and how they’re situated. Centaur women, battle bikinis, and the boobs and butt pose are the beginning of the discussion, not the end."
You can't put the entire weight of gender-equality writing on one test. This is just an opening to a larger discussion.

thumbsup!

That's interesting! There was this experiment done too at one point where they filled a room with men and women 50/50. They asked the men how many women they perceived to be in the room and the men said it was over 50%. When the women were deducted to be less than half of the men, they asked the men again how many women they perceived to be in the room, and they felt it was half.
Also cool writer Jim Zub talks about this too: http://jimzub.tumblr.com/post/117986754960/id-like-to-think-that-im-sensitive-to-the

zetina 2016-04-12 10:44:50 UTC #59

That's.... so real...
It reminds me of this one awful thing, which I imagine applies to a lot of people of all genders. Somehow, when putting together a cast, having the ladies outnumber the dudes is... Not balanced? Basically, the "man is default" mindset. I had this mindset for a long time and it's so strange. I've shed it by now but mmm~

People forget how much representation matters. Media is often the only thing that introduces us to a foreign concept. If it gets portrayed poorly, we'll live with that impression, sometimes without ever challenging it. I have an example about sumo wrestling.

What images of sumo wrestling are in your mind? Fat people fighting, eating a lot cuz they just need to be heavy... Or so the jokes in cartoons go (I can only recall an episode of Ed, Edd & Eddy where they train Johnny to be one atm). So, starting to read a sumo manga was an interesting experience. It was tough to get used to the whole loincloth thing, to take them seriously. But you know what? Sumo is intense. And that manga is really friggin' good (Hinomaru Zumou if you wanna give it a chance). I love it a lot for giving back this sport its respect.

jacintawibowo 2016-04-12 10:50:46 UTC #60

Exactly! I had that mindset way back when too. I was surprised looking back at my cast of characters and seeing how predominately male they were. I did that all without even thinking! We grow out of these mindsets when we're exposed to different stories and discussions.

That's a great example of representation in media! That's how stuff like "sassy black friend", "asian karate kid nerd", "hot asian girl student", "hot hispanic", and "nerdy indian" can be so damaging to our perception of others. It's awesome having stories now that challenge these thoughts, especially in webcomics where we take all the risks!