Does your comic pass the Bechdel Test?

NagashiKhan · Apr '16

Mmmm, lemme see..

1 who cares?
2- who cares?
and 3- who cares? You certainly shouldn't!

Now, lemme apologize for being salty, but things like this grind my gears a little, if you couldn't tell. =P

All honesty though, what a silly test. You should not ever, EVER be so concerned with such a thing in your media, unless we're talking indoctrination. And, no, we're not talking indoctrination. We're talking 'representation', which is as inconsequential as whether or not a background character has an ear piercing in his left ear. Who cares? Exactly, nobody does, and nobody should! Yet, this is a thing.

Especially considering the fact that pandering to such a... a mindset, I guess you could call it, could potentially ruin your comic/media, then why? Why does this test even exist? One would think to guilt trip those who don't pass the test for somebody's strange obsession with being represented, eh? But that's me scrutinizing, I can never say for sure why it exists in truth, I don't know Bechdel personally, hahaha.

To balance this all, I must say that there's nothin WRONG with passing this test, in fact that sort of thing could possibly enrich an artist's work. Absolutely, I'm not opposed to having interesting women characters and having them interact, in fact I feel that should be a given, which is another reason why I feel this test is silly. Why is the 3rd criteria that they cannot be speaking about another man? As if that's what creators have in mind when writing women, they just GOTTA be talking about another man, right? Lemme stop my eyes from rolling right out of their sockets.

Let creators make what they will, and let God be their judge as to whether they were being honest and true in their story telling. This test either accomplishes nothing, or it is designed to make creators feel bad about their work, whether they deserve it or not. Either way, for one to present this test makes their motives questionable, ahahaha!

Take no offense, though, this is only my two cents. I could be 1000000% wrong and wouldn't mind admitting so. Take it with a grain of salt and yadda yadda yadda, this that and the next, so on and so forth. I'm not angry, I'm just not on board, and I don't think you should be either XP

novasiri · Apr '16

This is a hard one for Aether Eternius1... really hard. Mostly due to the premise of the primary race being all non-binary with no physical genders outside of how they choose to appear. there's one established female, and one established male. Everyone else is non-binary or unconfirmed (Isilmo who is a baby dragon and Timo is a mimic.).

I have one established female character, and several who look and act female, but are non-binary. Said character is Kanami, Makumbo's older sister, fire mage, and skilled demolitionist.
Kanami does a lot of talking, and stands as one fo the three main character focuses of AE. She's easily the blunt voice of reason, or the sassy harasser depending on who's trying to talk over her/cheat her out of information.
She tends to keep her head straight and on point to the happenings around her. The last thing on her mind is men, if anything it would be on how to dispose of the body if they even touched her. She's mostly working to wrap her head around the weird world her younger sibling has dragged her into.

Bonus 4: Uhh... Does odd colored skin count (blue, green, made of stone or gemstones.. what about scales, or jelly?)? Does being a dragon or made of smoke count? I don't know how to answer this one... Kanami's race is human, but her ethnicity is unknown by pretty much everyone. And if you ask her, she'll likely set you on fire.

williamjbowles · Apr '16

Well my comic, Outcast Kingdom passes the first two, but somewhat fails the third one (sort of). I'm only 20-something pages in, so they haven't had a lot of time to talk to each other, aside from the mission.

Actually... they don't even talk about a man, just the job they have to do. So I think that's a pass-- even if only just.

But more over, I think it passes what the test is supposed to encourage-- stories with quality female characters. (Or at least, I think it does. At least, it will once I've gotten a little farther along in the story.)

PotooGryphon · Apr '16

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the test either so I can feel your saltiness. Honestly, I don't pass the Bechdel in real life, I'm surrounded by guys in rl.

Also, I cringe at how it's used as a yard stick in some circles to judge a story.

Agree, however, I want to also add I see nothing wrong with women talking about men. It is something that happens in real life on occasions. Girls talk to each other about their husbands, boyfriends, brothers, or father. Males do make up half of the world's population after all. Sometimes that's how two females can relate to each and form a friendships, by commiserating together on what crazy thing the male(s) in their life have done. I've never, personally, seen that as a negative to a story.

We meet more female cast members in this currently releasing issue. From issue 1-2 it was mostly from Oops' perspective and escaping the city, issue 3-5 we meet and get to know Talon and Malice, the first two females in the series. However, Talon and Malice don't talk to each other due to Malice holding a strong grudge to Talon and how the rest of the pack coddles her.

Nope... And there won't be much opportunity for Talon to talk to the new female cast members in issue 6 due to... [redacted for spoilers]

... Nope, however, if there were a scene of Talon talking with new female cast members, she probably would have to take a moment to talk about Oops since he's a mute and she'd have to help explain that with them.

hm, there's other races in Oops but I'm not sure if that fully counts. There are female elves, rock people, and humans. The elves have a darker tint to their skin and the rock people are made of, well, rocks, but they are not exactly a POC type character just a different race.

Later in the story, when it's comes naturally and fits with the progression of the story it'll gain more female diversity.

keii4ii · Apr '16

The problem is that while it SHOULD be a given, it's rather uncommon (starting to change, but we're still not there). That's what this test is trying to prove. It doesn't say anything about any single story. It's not intended to be a yardstick for individual stories. Rather, it's all about the bigger picture.

You could fail and still have a great story with good diversity; you could pass with flying colors and still have badly written cardboard female characters. I don't think anyone here is trying to dispute that.

Depending on how strict we get, I don't think my comic passes this test at this time, and it might never ever pass it. I'm not sure. I'm not concerned. If someone tells me to change my comic to make it pass the test, I will laugh. But that doesn't mean I laugh at the test as a whole. It serves a purpose -- just not the one you think it's trying to serve.

agentfink · Apr '16

This article is for film, but I thought it appropriate to share for this thread.
2,000 screenplays, Broken Down by Gender and Age
http://polygraph.cool/films/index.html4

scythe · Apr '16

See, I think this is a far more valuable resource with which to start a discussion than a 'test' that even the proponents of admit doesn't mean anything whether you pass or fail. Thanks for sharing.

williamjbowles · Apr '16

I agree that the Bechdel test isn't in any way perfect, or even any kind of accurate test (many great stories, even those with quality female characters, happen to fail the test (I have watched, read, and written numerous such stories), while there are demeaning, sexist, trashy stories that manage to pass on a technicality).
But I think it has some value. It's far from any sort of real criteria for quality, but it does make a fair point about women in certain forms of media being depicted as little more than accessories for men.

Does that make sense?

Just thought I'd add my two cents.

shazzbaa · Apr '16

Representation doesn't have to be priority number one, and you don't have to care about it if you don't want to, but the assertion that NOBODY should care seems a little unfair!

I look at the bechdel test as just a tool for thinking about something that we tend to forget to think about! Like the Mary Sue Litmus Test or the Harvey/Renee Index, it's not a judge of quality, just a way to examine trends in your own storytelling and ponder your own decisions. Did I make all these characters male just out of habit and could some of them be different, or is this a choice that serves the story that shouldn't be changed? Just because either answer is valid doesn't mean that the question isn't worth asking. ;u;

I definitely agree with you that shoving a character that you don't relate to and have no place for into a story is no good!! I'm all for just keeping eyes open for unrecognised possibilities, but always within the needs of the story.

My comic, for a long time, didn't pass at all and never would, and I was okay with that. While I was thinking about it, though, I started looking at the characters who had yet to be introduced, and literally made a pros-cons list of what it would change in the story and the character if I changed their gender. For some of them I decided, they were better off as guys. For one, I actually found the character was way better as a girl! But if none of the changes had been for the better, I would've just left everyone as-is.
If Runewriters passes now, it's probably kinda on a technicality (she's a major character, but still not one of the main three), but that's okay. I'm happy with the decision and I think it helped the story as a whole!

This is a bit of a tangent, but on a similar note -- I once read a piece of advice for screenwriters that said to go through your script, take all your Extras That Get Lines, and make half of them women, because for those roles it usually doesn't matter. It was meant for gender equality in the field of acting (it's actually harder for ladies to get background/bit parts with lines because screenwriters tend to make those parts male without thinking) but it's been a cool thing to think about while comicking, too! I have a lot of what I call "NPCs" in my comic, where they're important characters for like a chapter and that's it, and this is definitely a thought I could apply more often to them.

scythe · Apr '16

Well, that's a bit of a problem, because this test does nothing to distinguish whether those women are indeed being depicted as accessories for men, or simply accessories for the story.

Nor does it address situations where the genders are reversed. It's essentially trying to paint a very thin, specific line, with the broadest brush possible. The only reason anyone even gives it any credence is because that thin line does exist, there are fewer stories based around groups of women than around groups of men, but is this silly, arbitrary test the way to go about talking about /addressing that?

Whenever you start with a conclusion and then formulate up a 'method' to confirm said conclusion, your process is flawed, and any data you gather from then on is at best, questionable.

Dozzer · Apr '16

Hmmm, quite the discourse to come out of this thread. My series2 only passes 2 of the 3, and it passes the POC bonus question (IMO being "of color", the PCness of "person of color" feels a bit awkward).

I will say that, while this is an interesting test with lots of truth, it's probably altered my storytelling little to none. I wanna write what comes natural and what appeals to me. I feel it will, in the end, tell a truer, more convincing story. This test is good for literature study, but if it becomes a "yardstick" that alters the story's core to pass the test, the story sorta becomes a lie.

It's no accident my protagonist is a dude. I feel I can tell a stronger story (especially since my storytelling is an extension of my knowledge, experiences, and values). I'm not saying guys can't tell the story of a girl or that girls can't tell the story of a guy but, like I said, it's what came natural and what I've decided to lay out on the tablet.

Hmm, if there was a time I'd be triggered is if this test was applied in a strict, empirical way that governed content for the sake of pointing fingers at those who've never considered the test.

Just tell stories. If your core values want to shape literary discourse to be more representative or inclusive, tell that story.

maxzaguishi · Apr '16

https://tapastic.com/series/WHITE-PALADIN-1
my comic I think it passes the test
He is some youngsters with special abilities... and
has many female characters, have many conversations accounts and some funny stories that develop more the series and characters

Hannes · Apr '16

Hi, here is my Comic: Of Stars Profaned1
Ouch! I fail hard! I never even thought about this. The Comic I am working on atm does pass the test, so maybe it was just a coincidence. It's kinda interesting, anyway.
... What is this test all about, btw.? are there more tests like this out there?

jacintawibowo · Apr '16

That is hard! I mentioned in a reply to someone else that if a character is genderless but uses a feminine pronoun then it counts (like in Steven Universe with the Crystal Gems). So I'm okay with that =)
The skin color question is hard too- I kinda lean towards that (I'll call it) "Monster skintone" doesn't count. Like, Hulk has green skin but is not a person of color, in the same way Bizzaro isn't a person of color for having gray-dead zombie like skin. However! If their features are drawn in a way that equates to an equivalent of an "earth race", then I would count it. Think of it as a character design read. Garnet (from Steven Universe) may have red/purple skin, but her features indicate a black woman's features. Hope that explains it =)

The test sheds light on a commonality that many stories can't seem to pass. Well-written women don;t have to pass the test, but doing so is certainly a step towards the right direction =) I mean, it would be nice if we get stories with more ladies in them that aren't just about us being love interests all the time!

That's cool! Thank you for sharing =)

This test wasn't to judge the quality of anybody webcomics! Like I mentioned several times by now: passing the test does not determine the quality of your story. People thinking that passing this test means "quality storytelling" or anything of "valuable resource to start discussion" is a weird tangent on their part. This test was literally to check whether your comic has more than one lady who talk to each other about something other than a guy. Anything else like dialogue, story construction, pacing, I'm not discussing.

"What comes naturally" can be quite a dodgy thing to say. Since we're surrounded by all these let's face it- white, male led narratives, when we write stories we end up writing about white male leads. I came from an international school and my mentor has observed that even if those students came from diverse backgrounds they will still write typical white male leads, because "it came naturally". All of the characters I drew in highschool were white, despite me coming from an Asian country. That too, was because "it came naturally". I think what's to discuss here is: why is it when "it comes naturally" the result is a story without more than one woman talking to each other about something other than a guy. Why is that such a low bar to meet, yet so many films and stories fail it miserably? That's what we should be talking about.

Hi there! This test came from a comic artist who was talking to her friend about films! It sparked a discussion about how women were treated in film, but it can apply to other storytelling mediums. Not passing the test brings up interesting questions, like: why do we have only one (or none!) female characters in a story? Why is it when we DO have more than one, why do they not talk to each other? And so on! It's a fun test to keep in mind. =)
Another variation is a test I heard somewhere about POC characters talking to each other about something other than a white person (though I can't remember the name of that test!)

jacintawibowo · Apr '16

That's the thing. When you say "who cares" it shows.
It IS a silly test. That's the whole point. That it's a such a low set bar that even ten hour long trilogies can't pass. How ridiculous is that? I even mentioned this in my post: passing the test does not determine the quality of your story. Lord of the Rings is an amazing story! The only thing the Bechdel test says about it is that despite being a long sprawling epic with several intense characters, it somehow manages to fail at getting two of their lady characters to meet and talk to each other.

I care. Representation is important. Representation is what inspired Mae Jemison to become THE FIRST African American woman to travel space. She saw Nichelle Nichols on Star Trek and was inspired to become an astronaut. Gail Simone saw Yvonne Craig play as a red haired Batgirl on TV, and it inspired her to be more confident and write for comics in the future. She's now the leading lady of DC. Linda Sue Park's book, "A Long Walk to Water" inspired CHILDREN to raise money through walkathons and selling wristbands for "Water for Sudan". They raised more than one million dollars.
There are countless stories of black girls feeling ugly about themselves over their skintone and hair. A heartbreaking story I heard from my mentor was her black niece seeing Tiana the Disney Princess on TV. She was still a baby, and yet seeing Tiana on TV made her say "she looks like me!" she knew it was something special. Heck, when Avatar the Last Airbender the tv show came out, it made me actually proud to be asian. I never felt like I could be in a story because all I saw as a kid where white people in stories. But with ATLA, it showed asians could be heroes and villains too. Crazy right?
Sure, you don't care. But a lot of people out there do. We want to see ourselves in these stories. How come white men are allowed to be featured in stories countless times and women are just supposed to accept that they're always depicted as: the love interest, jobless, and having no lady friends to talk to. Why are our narratives SO interlinked with men's lives that we can't seem to talk about anything else? Why can't WE go on adventures? Why can't WE go to space? Why can't we save the damsel in distress? Why can't we be the monsters? Why are we the ones sexualized? Why do women actors at the age of 30 begin to lose their career because "nobody wants to write about 30 year old women"? Why is it so hard for actors and actresses of color to find acting jobs in the US beyond racial stereotyping? Probably because people don't care abut us, right?

I never brought up pandering. This isn't about target audience. And yet again, I am not judging quality of storytelling. That is a tangent you decided to bring up (there's even a disclaimer up there in my original post, guys!)

Also, why does this test exist? Lemme grab a quote from Escher Girls because they sum it up nicely:
"Escher Girls, The Bechdel Test, Bikini Armor, etc, are all catchy terms, and great things to keep in mind when writing fiction with women in it, but it’s not as simple as just “not doing this one thing”. These phrases and ideas are meant to highlight specific issues about the way women are written and drawn in fiction and to open up a discussion about the larger picture of how women are portrayed. The Bechdel Test is meant to point out how few women have roles and how even fewer of them have stories of their own that don’t revolve around men. Escher Girls is about showing the prevalence of female characters being contorted or dressed in ways that maximize titillation over function. They are symptoms, not the cause, and addressing just one of them once doesn’t fix the underlying issue. Change comes by challenging ourselves to not just settle at “my princess punches people before being captured” or “the male hero’s love interest talks to her female friend about dogs at one point”, but to be willing to examine the overall way we’re depicting women in our fiction, how many there are, and how they’re situated. Centaur women, battle bikinis, and the boobs and butt pose are the beginning of the discussion, not the end."

I'm not guilt tripping anyone! I even wrote a little disclaimer saying that if you didn't pass the test, it's okay. I never said anything like "IF YOU DON'T PASS THE BECHDEL TEST MAY HELLFIRE RAIN DOWN ON YOUR WEBCOMIC". Not at all, this was just something I wanted to check out.
Also: "strange obsession with being represented". Wow. Just wow. I vaguely mention being sad that I don't see my race ever depicted in media and apparently I'm "obsessed". Wow.

Actually! Scripting classes used to teach their students1 to "not write about women having conversations with other women" and that if they do, "it has to be about men" because if they don't, "the audience will get bored." So yes, they were actually thinking about it.
We may not have been in these classes but we are affected by the stories that generation created.
The third criteria measures how the women in stories are often interlinked with men's lives. We're always the girl friend, the wife, the sister, the mom, what have you. How come men can be talking to each other about something other than a woman, yet whenever women talk, it's about men? Why can't we talk about stealing the declaration of independence? We don't talk about boys all the time!

jacintawibowo · Apr '16

I never said there was anything wrong about talking about men! Funny how you assume that.
What the Bechdel test is addressing is why women's lives seem to revolve around men to the point that whenever women speak, it's about men.
Also saying stuff like "I don't pass the Bechdel test in real life" is a poor argument. In stories, we can have dragons, gryiffins, fairies, hobbits,and a bunch of crazy things that don't happen in real life. Yet when we talk about women talking to each other about something other than a guy, our imagination goes at a blank. How come you don't bring this question to dragons?
Also girls talking to other girls about something other than guys does happen in real life. I've seen it, I've been a part of it, so there ya go! I'll serve as proof to that!

I've mentioned to another user that what I'm gonna call "Monster Skin" doesn't count. Only if the features are humanoid and relate closely enough to a POC human race (like Steven Universe Crystal Gems) will I count that more closely as a pass.

That's good! I'll be looking forward to that. I think adding POC characters and women is a good thing to think about. Especially in kid-lit and all-ages stuff, it's a very influential time to talk about this.

jacintawibowo · Apr '16

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this!

and that's perfectly fine!

jacintawibowo · Apr '16

I'm going to post this quote again because it explains it really well (this is from the blog Escher Girls):
"Escher Girls, The Bechdel Test, Bikini Armor, etc, are all catchy terms, and great things to keep in mind when writing fiction with women in it, but it’s not as simple as just “not doing this one thing”. These phrases and ideas are meant to highlight specific issues about the way women are written and drawn in fiction and to open up a discussion about the larger picture of how women are portrayed. The Bechdel Test is meant to point out how few women have roles and how even fewer of them have stories of their own that don’t revolve around men. Escher Girls is about showing the prevalence of female characters being contorted or dressed in ways that maximize titillation over function. They are symptoms, not the cause, and addressing just one of them once doesn’t fix the underlying issue. Change comes by challenging ourselves to not just settle at “my princess punches people before being captured” or “the male hero’s love interest talks to her female friend about dogs at one point”, but to be willing to examine the overall way we’re depicting women in our fiction, how many there are, and how they’re situated. Centaur women, battle bikinis, and the boobs and butt pose are the beginning of the discussion, not the end."
You can't put the entire weight of gender-equality writing on one test. This is just an opening to a larger discussion.

thumbsup!

That's interesting! There was this experiment done too at one point where they filled a room with men and women 50/50. They asked the men how many women they perceived to be in the room and the men said it was over 50%. When the women were deducted to be less than half of the men, they asked the men again how many women they perceived to be in the room, and they felt it was half.
Also cool writer Jim Zub talks about this too: http://jimzub.tumblr.com/post/117986754960/id-like-to-think-that-im-sensitive-to-the

zetina · Apr '16

That's.... so real...
It reminds me of this one awful thing, which I imagine applies to a lot of people of all genders. Somehow, when putting together a cast, having the ladies outnumber the dudes is... Not balanced? Basically, the "man is default" mindset. I had this mindset for a long time and it's so strange. I've shed it by now but mmm~

People forget how much representation matters. Media is often the only thing that introduces us to a foreign concept. If it gets portrayed poorly, we'll live with that impression, sometimes without ever challenging it. I have an example about sumo wrestling.

What images of sumo wrestling are in your mind? Fat people fighting, eating a lot cuz they just need to be heavy... Or so the jokes in cartoons go (I can only recall an episode of Ed, Edd & Eddy where they train Johnny to be one atm). So, starting to read a sumo manga was an interesting experience. It was tough to get used to the whole loincloth thing, to take them seriously. But you know what? Sumo is intense. And that manga is really friggin' good (Hinomaru Zumou if you wanna give it a chance). I love it a lot for giving back this sport its respect.

jacintawibowo · Apr '16

Exactly! I had that mindset way back when too. I was surprised looking back at my cast of characters and seeing how predominately male they were. I did that all without even thinking! We grow out of these mindsets when we're exposed to different stories and discussions.

That's a great example of representation in media! That's how stuff like "sassy black friend", "asian karate kid nerd", "hot asian girl student", "hot hispanic", and "nerdy indian" can be so damaging to our perception of others. It's awesome having stories now that challenge these thoughts, especially in webcomics where we take all the risks!

elixiadragmire · Apr '16

yeah it wasnt long, it was a good morning scene, a little talk at the dinner talk and trying to calm her down after her father leaves ^^;

Yeah this character i made a while ago and the more I got to know him to more it stuck me he was little autistic.

alaingrey · Apr '16

Whoa thanks for all the replies to my thought, guys.

It seems most people's opinion is 'If your story can be the same with women as men, then why not have more women?" and I totally agree. And maybe I'm mistaken but I don't think it works in every case, and that's ok. If your story is a Vietnam War story, I would definitely expect more men. If your story is a women's prison story, I would expect more women! And I think those gender ratios are important to the story and the issues that are being brought up.

I'm not surprised or upset that my comic colossally fails this test! My comic is about growing up gay during the AIDS crisis. It's a small cast, and therefore the ratio is 3:1 in favor of men. Yikes! When I started the comic, I really felt bad about this, and I actually thought about this particular test a LOT, so I came up with a plan. My main characters are in a band, so I decided, why not have them friendly with another band that's all women? I love girl bands! ... I scrapped the idea. It felt to me too much like Alvin and the Chipmunks vs the Chipettes. Like, here's the 'normal' band, now have the Girl Version! and it seemed really demeaning and not at all the Girl Power vibe I wanted :"D

So in the end... why not make the comic an 80s lesbian comic? Because 1. It's already been done (read Love and Rockets!! ) 2. As a gay dude I just have 0 personal investment in lesbian stories and I want to draw guys in those 80s workout shorts with those bad moustaches and tube socks and 80s gay fetish gear and... ahem.. 9 _ 6;; 3. It would actually significantly change the whole AIDS plot because that's not really a women's issue and I decided that those things were more central to the story than a need for more women.

That was too much rambling about where I'm coming from in my story even though it totally doesn't matter. the short version is, i think some stories can colosally fail.... I can fail the test big, but in the end still have done the best to make empowering women happen on the page.

jacintawibowo · Apr '16

That's a wonderful rant! And very relatable. A lot of us have gone through a variation of your journey and it's important to acknowledge that.

jacintawibowo · Apr '16

Hey Guys! How're you doing? Just wanted to give you an update on things. I've read all your responses, and I'm totally delighted to find that a lot of you guys passed the Bechdel Test! Congrats! For the folks who didn't pass (unintentionally or not) that's okay too!
I won't be responding as frequently on any further replies to this topic because I feel like I'm starting to repeat myself quite a lot. If you guys want to know more about the Bechdel Test (or the Bechdel-Wallace as it's recently being called) you can look at the responses in this thread (maybe someone has voiced the same concern as you! It's gotten to the point I see the same concerns resurfacing) that way we can learn from what's been said already. Also there's plenty of resources on the web (both directly related to the Bechdel test and are branching topics that closely relate to it) that talk about this issue in greater detail than I could ever write of it at the moment. Here's some resources to start you off (feel free to add if you have more in mind):
-"It's not about Race it's about Imagination" speech by Idris Elba2
-Jim Zub response to diversity question1
-Escher Girls quote I mentioned in this thread.
-Why film schools teach screenwriters not to pass the Bechdel test4
-Issue vs Incidental Diversity
-"My Least Favorite Trope1" by Elizabeth Bear
-#whitewashedout hashtag on Twitter (Asian creators share their experiences and thoughts on the continued whitewashing of Asian characters in media)
-The hidden message in kid's movies by Colin Stokes Ted Talk (This talk is a bit outdated, but it's a good talk to keep in mind of when writing stories)

My schedule doesn't currently give me the time to fully devote to this discussion and I've given it the ol' best try already.
Don't worry if your story doesn't pass the test, it doesn't have to to be a good story or have good female leads and supporting characters. Do keep this test in mind though as a symptom to a larger issue being addressed.
Thank you for your understanding and thanks so much for your contribution! <3

muhdreams · Apr '16

lmao no I don't think my comic passes any test

Unless there's a test for people with perspiration problems, then I pass that with flying colours and probably more.

dragonfly_kites · Apr '16

Lets see Kings is still fairly new...

I have three female characters so far one child one adult, and one old lady. Oma and Astrid are the only ones with a spoken names and they both have spoken lines.
Not yet
Both time they have spoken it hasn't been about a dude so does that count?

Kamikaze · Apr '16

The comic my team and I work on Kamikaze1, is set in a desolate future, were feudal corporations hoard the last patches of fertile crop land. A young courier is unwittingly thrown into a life or death game of espionage and sabotage from which she may never escape.

Thankfully we DO pass the Bechdel test, but...only just. Not for lack of trying, but currently in the story the two leading ladies who spend a lot of time together haven't gotten to that point in the story. :/ The conversation our lead Markesha has with her land lady Alice, is a set up for stakes, letting the audience know just how much trouble Markesha's in...

Unfortunately it's a short scene, but more in depth ones are coming up quite soon.

Good news is, our story is stuffed to the brim with all sorts of diversity, including our lead! So we definitely pass your 5th requirement @jacintawibowo!

NagashiKhan · Apr '16

Herein lies the problem-

Representation should not be important to anybody because it is a shallow, self- absorbed way to look at the world. If you cannot relate to a character on a personal level, regardless of race, gender, or religion, then I think that is something far more worth addressing than this silly litmus test. If only the whole world could hear me say, race and gender does not matter! It doesn't define who you are, it only adds to it! So why are we so absorbed in it?

However, you DO make a good point, and I'm glad you made it.

This is interesting- it's not surprising that "the industry" would teach such things, because the industry is about nothing but money. They look at the numbers, see the trends, and teach them as facts and rules to go by. Just because a chart says such and such, doesn't mean the audience will always get bored when it's not about men. This is what the industry doesn't understand- in fact, many people don't understand that "the numbers" only observe something under the specific conditions of a test, one should never live and/or create according to the numbers. It's about principle.

So, yes, were you speaking to a student of a scripting class, yes, this test doesn't seem too absurd, because those people have been indoctrinated. In that case, yes, we are talking indocrtination. However, have you read half of the comics on Tapastic? Do these creators look even close to indoctrinated to think of women as accessories to men? Hahahaha! Maybe you haven't been here for long, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find somebody here who think of women as just an afterthought.

Despite this, I must also mention that, in response to @keii4ii, exactly what century are we speaking of when we say "it's rather uncommon"? Have you seen the bigger picture? Or do I just never pick up a piece of shit book/movie? It's hard to say whom of us really have the bigger picture, because as far as I can tell, women in media are enormous, fantastical, and pivotal. I can't even think of a current age book, movie, show or story where women are used as an accessory, or are treated as second to men. It's possible that I'm the one that is short on his media consumption, or maybe I'm just never drawn to media that is like this?

Either way, I would say a plethora of media outlets get this right. And please don't say "not enough do", because it's honestly not about the numbers, it's about the concept. Would the thirst ever be quenched, were we to take to the numbers? I believe the honest answer to that is no, but that's just me. There are many many many many many creators who get this right, I promise you. It's enough to make the world go 'round.

(As a side note, when I do write a comic that has a story line, you bet your bottom dollar that it'll pass this test, and by no means on purpose, lest I be a shallow, pseudo-righteous man of little substance)

keii4ii · Apr '16

We still live in an era where something like Mad Max: Fury Road stands out as an exception. I've come to expect accessory women characters as the norm, that during the first half or so of the movie, EVERY TIME a new young female character showed up, I caught myself thinking, "oh, is that gonna be the main dude's love interest?" That's saying something.

I can certainly think of shows/movies where the female leads take the spotlight. In fact, it's very easy to think of some. Why? Because they're exceptions, and that makes them easier to remember. Whereas if you asked me to name a few movies where the guy takes the spotlight, I'd be like, "ummmmmmmm... I dunno, a lot of them?"

Harry Potter, for instance. Hermione and Bellatrix are important characters who accomplish a lot of things. But at the end of the day, Hermione still isn't Harry, and Bellatrix still isn't Voldemort. I don't want that to change for that particular series, because that story is fine the way it is. But if that's how it goes in the majority of the stories out there... that's pretty skewed, isn't it? I'm saying that as far as I can tell, that is sadly the case.

And that's just for female characters, who arguably don't have it as bad as certain other groups.

NagashiKhan · Apr '16

I don't really see how this holds water, because I, on the other hand, would NOT think that. Like, ever. So is that not saying something? That's just a matter of your mind set, how you percieve and break down a piece of media you're consuming. I wouldn't say that really makes an objective point about the state of current age media, I'd say that's how you've grown to observe it, not necessarily how it presents itself.

Hmm, yes, I can see how this makes sense. I was thinking of this as I was writing, I'm glad you brought it up. But is this test about simply who stars in the story, or how men and women are represented? Like, the Transformers movies for example- this is one of the easiest to think of when it comes to NOT passing the Bechdel test, because you can tell Bay is just an industry guy, just another bag of d***s basically tainting this world with it's clear "male lead female accessory" model. But say Castle, for example, also does not pass the Bechdel test- I don't THINK (I haven't seen enough of it, but of what I have, it wouldn't seem so), yet Castle does not at all misrepresent women- in fact, I think their female lead is bomb. This may be a weak example, but even yet it was off the top of my head. It's not an exception, but it still sticks out, I think.

But putting Harry Potter into this equation is very strange, especially considering Rowling's record of being super open about her books- like, this isn't an industry case, this is an author who really portrayed what she wanted in her story. And honestly, what does "she's not Harry Potter" even mean? Who gives a crap about Harry Potter? Hermoine was why we watched the movies, Snape was why we watched the movies, good 'ol McGonnogal was why we watched those movies, not Harry, not Voldemort. I mean, right? Is Harry your favorite character? Is Harry even relatable??

But lemme stop crashing this party, I think this, with any response made,would be a good conclusion to this discussion. People who visit this Topic, who are honestly interested in seeing whether they pass the test, pointless or not, should do so. And thanks for being reasonable @keii4ii, I like having discussions with you, you handle yourself very well <3

dratinigirl · Apr '16

ElectroMania does! Even though the main characters are a man and an agender person, there are an equal number of women to men in the story. (Three men, three women, and the nb person) The antagonist is a woman, and two of them, a white woman and black woman, are girlfriends that obviously speak to one another a lot. All of them have names and are critical to the story's progression! Though most of the time they aren't having a conversation to themselves, but are present with other in a room and talking to each other and men as well. Of course, I sadly have yet to draw most of these things in, but this is all established within the first chapter and a half 8*)
Here are my girlies if it's ok to show you:

I kind of had in mind from the start that I wanted there to be people of color, and an equal number of men to women. It leaves a wider margin of interest, I think :> and it's fun to draw different types of people!

apocryphagraphics · Apr '16

Not sure the Bechdal test is a remotely good test of a comic or author's attitudes toward females, but Heroes for Ghosts passes with flying colors. Over half the characters so far are female. Nearly all are people of color/mixed race and of course they talk to each other. They are all strong, intelligent, badass women. It would probably shock some that with 63 pages out there isn't a single romantic line uttered by a character female or male. The ladies may be talking about men at some point, but it's not going to be about how hot they are or how they got their hearts broken by them. Heroes for ghosts is a story about warriors and that's what the ladies are-- extraodinarily powerful people.

Inspector_Spinda · Apr '16

My comic is titled Mercenary Inn and it is about an amateur mage who joins a group of mercenaries as they try to prove themselves in a world of superior magic.
1. One of the main characters is a female (named Eris). The mother of a secondary character who is planned, but not introduced (the comic is in its early chapters) as well as the main antagonist will be female.
2. Obviously Eris and the antagonist will talk, and the mother will as well to a lesser extent.
3. The mother I want to be a damsel. But in an extreme way. Like Bella Swan 10x except in sort of a sympathetic villain role. So she will mostly talk about her husband. Eris will talk about her grandfather. Does that count? I never really understand this. Talking about PEOPLE is important in characters. And not talking about men is just cutting out 50% of conversation. It should be changed to not talking about men in context to romance or lack thereof. Eris also talks about strength, and people she hates cause they look done on her (not for being a girl though). The villain talks about SPOILERS, but it's not a guy, also Eris, her backstory, and a minor antagonist who is a guy, but they are not romantically connected.
Bonus: idk. What does this really mean in a fantasy world anyways? The villain has purple hair and Eris's hair is red. They are pale skinned, but so are Asians and they are not white, so does that make them a person of color? Despite her red hair I thought of Eris as half Asian, half white (but it is a fantasy world so Asia is not a real thing).

I want to add my favorite manga here if I might:
It is called Lupin III and it about a thief and his companions and the cop who is after them. Basically an episodic heist comic.
1. Lots of girls, but it is episodic so there sort of has to be. 90% have the same name (fujiko mine). She's a play on the bond girl. In every chapter she has a different backstory and bit different personality, but she's always Lupin's rival. The rest of the girls are antagonists with different names.
2. Fujiko is usually the only antagonist whenever she shows up so she doesn't talk to any girls, but in some chapters there are criminal gangs with lots of women who talk.
3. Lol. They talk about MONEY like 99% of the time. It is so tongue in cheek.
Bonus: It's manga. Does Japanese count? If so everyone is of color

successkid2014 · Apr '16

Frankly, it doesn't matter if it follows these rules or any rules. As long as it expresses creativity and is an overall good story. Hell, I have a test of my own called the BBQ Test.

Step 1. Is the story original? If not, make it original. If unable to make it original, then make something else.

Step 2. Is the story good? No? Then return to step one.

Step three is optional, it's just eating some grilled pork, beef, or chicken. Or any meat really, but make sure it's nice and coated with barbecue sauce and grilled to perfection.

Rinse and repeat, my comrades.

demthorshie · Apr '16

Cosmos Song1 does have more than one female character, the main character actually being female herself. There are currently 3 female characters with speaking lines in the story and more of them will appear later on, as the comic is still very young.
Roxy hasn't really had a lot of interaction with with the rest of her tribe members yet aside from her cousin Kai and his kids (Phona and Zeo) since Ron's appearance in the story for obvious reasons. She will be interacting with another character soon (who has not been introduced in the story yet.)
Roxy has not yet spoken to anyone else about the Ron incident yet aside from the chief, who is pretty much trying to cover it up. Since the story is only 34 pages in, not every female character has been introduced yet and there will be various times where Roxy does speak to the characters about something other than Ron (even though admittedly he will come up quite often regardless of the gender she's interacting with because hey, foreign! xD)
1. The main character of Cosmos Song is in fact a woman of color! Considering the comic primarily takes place in the tropics, 90% of the cast are actually POC.

jacintawibowo · Apr '16

Is there a reason it doesn't pass the second but passes the third? I'm curious! Was it the time limit constriction for the second rule? If the convo is not about a dude, then it counts =) preferably not throwaway comments like "catch this!" or "pass the ketchup", but they count as "somewhat passes" =)

I've so been meaning to read this series! <3

It totally is <3

Congrats for passing so well! And of course this test doesn't show the author's attitudes towards ladies, never said it was. Just a test to see if two ladies talk to each other about a non-dude topic =)

Sorry, talking about male relatives doesn't pass the test. The third requirement is to test if your lady character's life doesn't revolve around male characters to the point it's the only thing they talk about. Even non-romantically.
Men don't take up 50% of conversations! There's plenty of conversation topics aside from men: food, other ladies, talking about "the girl herself", the environment, morals, the government, the apocalypse, your rent, a videogame you were playing, war plans, etc. lots of non-dude and non-people topics!

(I used to be confused about this too) Think of it as a character design. If I put your character on a flashcard and showed it to an average person, will they be able to tell that your character is not white? For example, in a fantasy setting if I take Legolas from Lord of the Rings film, he's clearly a white elf. But if I take Gwendolyn from Saga, she may not be human, but it's very clear she's not white either. Same with Garnet from Steven Universe (I use her as an example a lot because of her purple/red skin) she's a rock from space, yet we know from her character design that she's not white. So if the intention of the design is to portray them as POC in a fantasy setting, then it's a pass!

Ooh I always wanted to watch it! I love the style and the charisma the characters seem to have! And yes, usually manga have all Japanese characters, which counts as a pass.

I never said the Bechdel test was a judge of quality or original storytelling. You got to that conclusion on your own. This test is literally just to check if you have two lady characters that talk about a non-man topic. It's a very low bar to pass, and yet many stories don't pass.

Cool!

Inspector_Spinda · Apr '16

oh, i see. well in that case they do talk about some of things you listed. as for non-white characters. all my characters so far have white complexions. but if what they wear and the culture they follow count my MC is not white.

jacintawibowo · Apr '16

In a perfect world, race, gender, and religion, shouldn't matter. We don't live in that world. Regardless of you feeling that way, it doesn't change the world we live in. That's ignoring the problem. We are not shallow for wanting to be seen and acknowledged respectfully in film. You say we should "relate to a character" on a personal level regardless of race and gender. We've been doing that with white male leads all the time. How is it when we ask for an asian or a black character lead, it's "why can't you relate to our precious white male characters? You should be able to relate to people regardless of race and gender!" My response is: why can't you relate to people regardless of race and gender? Is it because you don't find asian or black characters relate-able? Sounds like a double standard.
Literally just this past week two big budget films (Dr Strange and Ghost in the Shell) are white washing Asian characters. This is widely being talked about in creative circles. This is still a problem today. Even if you don't see that.

That's...why I made this thread. To ask people in the community if they passed. Don't get me wrong- I anticipated that most people would pass. Webcomic artists are diverse individuals who don't have to appeal to an editor, middle man, or industry to make stories. They make the strangest stories I've ever read with plenty lady leads and characters of color. I was simply curious about this community in general.
Also I'm not saying anyone's being indoctrinated here. I'm saying that there's an understandable chance people are being influenced by the stories of a previous generation of creators. The unique stories we find here are the result of people being aware of the problem and actively avoiding those cliches. Some comics here do it, some don't. That's just how it is.

Thanks? I guess. People will appreciate that. Though you really shouldn't call them "pseudo-righteous or shallow". That's...really mean.
Great that you're making stories, creativity is cool and all... just don't be mean about representation. It's a really hot topic in comics and a lot of people care about it. Don't be calling them names for...adding women and POC characters in their story.

demthorshie · Apr '16

I'm scratching my head at this somewhat. How can adding POC and women in to a comic be considered pseudo-righteous and of little substance? Are you saying these groups can only be "the other" and not the default?

bakasama25 · Apr '16

I think he's talking about putting in minority characters for the sake of "diversity" over such basic things like well plotted stories or character development.

Does your comic pass the Bechdel Test?

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