Everyone should make a DooM level - a few thoughts about action and environments

SpectreFirst · Feb 16

Some time ago I was watching a video about DooM level mapping3 and after getting back to constructing my comic I realized something – why does almost every discussion here is focused on characters? Character is just one of the cogwheels in a story-telling mechanism so why does everyone always focuses on that rather than other important aspects like world logic, environments and action choreography?
Why do I mention DooM in the first place? Because its levels are essentially an amalgamation of everything you need to have in your work – a mixture of specific and abstract designs which provide creative freedom but serves a particular purpose, a choreographed action based on character’s and monster’s traits and most importantly, a quest – a specific set of objectives which provide a sense of progression for the plot and action itself. Constructing a DooM level is not just about drawing random walls and placing monsters and ammo, it’s about handling many critically important aspects of a story at once, balancing, refining and converging these aspects while choosing the one right path from an endless number of possible solutions, something that, according to artists, is extremely easy and can be done in “less than a week” regardless of length and complexity.

Anyway, practically every topic I see here is always about characters, character's grandma’s maiden surname, character's armpit hair color, character's favorite socks length, character's favorite junk food, character's favorite Chia Pets, character's favorite sleeping pills, how many hours a day your character spends watching paint dry, the first time your character kissed its own elbow (“sfw only” of course!) and many other extremely interesting topics, yet nobody seems to acknowledge the fact that even if you have the most “interesting” and/or “relatable” character in the world, you will not be able to make a good story if your character has no purpose and has nothing to do; general plot and script only sets a general direction of events but once your character sets foot on the ground it’s the world logic and environment that determine its actions and consequentially, the actual “meat” of the story.

When people are talking about environments and backgrounds they tend to call both of them backgrounds but these two things are different: background is, just as the name implies, is a backdrop behind the characters and just like in a theatrical play is not (or minimally) interactive while an environment is something that surrounds the characters and plays a critical role in a story when characters actively interact with their surroundings. There were several discussions on how “detailed” your “backgrounds” should be but nobody seems to acknowledge that environment is not just a decoration that you can skip whenever you like and replace it with a gradient limbo, it’s an essential part of the story-telling mechanism and a separate “character” which tells its own story via environmental story-telling.

As for the action scenes, there were also a few discussions here and again, I see people demonstrating their characters in one panel shooting… Umm… Somewhere off panel followed by a panel of someone else being hit… Umm… Somewhere else and we have absolutely no idea where these two characters are in relation to each other, what’s going on around them and what’s going on in general, not to mention another half a dozen characters politely waiting for their turn just outside the frame. Even the original DooM comics, both the “Rip and Tear!” one and the DooM 2 RPG comic, have exactly the same problem in that regard.
Just as Civvie said in one of his videos, properly built action scenes must be as unbroken and clear as possible, and in order to do that you have to have a properly built and thoroughly planned and tested environment and not just a rough script of what your characters are supposed to do and a gradient backdrop.
And on a separate note, why the hell do you even have an action scene if your main character have a 100% accuracy rate and so much plot armor that it can take an artillery shell to the face and survive without any meaningful consequences? This is not a power fantasy, this is a juvenile fantasy because I’m not talking about specifically constructed semi-abstract “game” logic here, I’m talking about world logic that is supposed to look more or less «realistic».

So, here’s some of my thoughts as I’m slowly gathering data about environment and action scenes construction and I’m genuinely surprised that most of the information is scattered all over the place and no-one seems to bother, but is your character’s eye color more important than its actual traits that can only be depicted in action, are endless close-ups more interesting than fully constructed environments with spatial depth and atmosphere and the last but not least, why the hell do we need to sit through thirty pages of history lesson infodump if none of that dump will play any actual role in your story? I genuinely don’t get it.

stiatent · Feb 16

1st time they kissed their elbow 🤣
Yep I'm interested in checking out this Doom vid, the amount of cool and wild mods people been making from it, thanks for sharing Been dabbling in Unreal Engine on the side, planning to migrate the comic over there also, but also looks like fun to try out the doom level

OG Doom was b4 my time but the additional game mechanics/ puzzles and narrative easter eggs environments offered throughout my life as a gamer have been an influence.
Also awesome seeing the number of Little Nightmares theory videos out there, that assume greater plot just from the game's detailed environments. A short and tastefully linear game yet lived on for much longer on the internet just because of this.

Speaking from my own journey,
[It would be unfair of me to judge others, as everyone else has different tastes, target demographics and methods of production, and time available].
As you said, yep, I just didn't want the environment to be a backdrop or a decoration either.
As someone fairly new to making comics, I first went in with the thought of the background as a way to hint the ongoing mystery, imply the character's mental state and plant red herrings to trick the audience and it just kept evolving from there.

Regarding environments and combat, it was during one episode that it became a clear decision to always "design the environment first then come up with the fight 2nd". It's during an episode where the MCs battle an infected Pig (1st boss battle), one of the MCs starts displaying his parkour skills, so it made sense the environment should dictate his actions.

Because I made the environment 1st it also inspired a situations where the battle splits into 3 layers;
" (1) MC1 floating around like a ghost in first person while looking for a tool within the backyard to aid him
(2) MC2 fighting a bunch of infected that stormed the 'boss battle'
(3) the monster pig seen in background also fighting off the infected as the two MCs keep an eye."

Following this, I've always designed the environment first before writing the battle! Saves me time making unnecessary decisions and the creation process feels far more natural vs trying to fit/force ideas

Not to slam all the premium comics but there were a few I've read it's hilarious seeing stuff like "the Mc works at Company A" 🤣 The little effort put into some just make them forgettable and boring after reading 1 or 2 episodes to me honestly. As you mentioned info dump, general plot, and plot armor:
Some of the premiums I've read are guilty, seen characters begin to say weird stuff to carry the plot or show 'how perfect the MC or love interest is' due to lack of environment detail. Likewise the author missing an opportunity to do a "Show don't tell". XD

I also understand some comics are meant to be quick read, side hobby, learning process since its mostly people doing it on their own limited schedules etc so It's not my place to judge. I'd imagine many comics here cater for the guy/girl on the buss trip home looking for a simple and quick read (in defense of those few premiums too, and fair enough not everyone wants an intricate series either).
Speaking on myself however, I just wanted mines to recapture the feels I got playing AAA games and Films. It's been a learning process as I go but yep strong environments is key for me

That's awesome your gathering data on action and environments and look forward to whenever you share more on here. I'd suggest you also create threads that will encourage other authors to respond about other details in their series outside the 'usual character posts' as you said.
I have fun doing the character ones on the forums likewise, so I can't complain about those.

Wishing everyone success on their creative journey

jwabeasley · Feb 16

I generally agree. I think most artists that go into comics are coming from a place where they like to draw a lot of OCs and people showing emotions more than they like doing environments. Just see the plethora of comics using cheap premade background assets or edited stock photos instead of doing something more unique.

It's how we get comics written by an American that take place in fantasy-modern Europe but somehow they look like they're in a Japanese high school from the 90's, or how a bum's apartment in rural Oregon looks like a pristine Seoul middle class studio apartment inside. I see this even in professional manga and often find it frustrating. Dear Manga/Manhwa artists, I recognize Buckingham palace and Westminster. Don't try and tell me they're just generic school buildings or palaces in your otome setting. At least pick something more obscure from Austria or Poland.

I've always held that the background is a character.

When I put a prominent building in the comic, I think about story needs first (mood, scene needs, lighting, functionality) but I then go and generate the whole history of the building. Who built it first? What function did the building have before it was what it is now? How do those changes reflect on the building as we see it today? Why does it use the materials it uses, what temporary decor would it have, and so forth. If I'm successful, you'll get a solid idea of place and a sense of history that lend verisimilitude to my story, even if I might never get to put those notes into the story in a direct way.

For action sequences specifically, I don't have as many in Etherwood (it's not an action comic, really), but I have a similar background from running TTRPGs for well over a decade - interactable, specific set pieces just elevate encounters so much. It's just fun to see characters creatively use their environments to seek advantage rather than just spamming their abilities like a video game mob.

DokiDokiTsuna · Feb 17

I agree with some points in the OP...but I must say a lot of it feels like a good-old fashioned paradoxical "why does no one ever think about [insert thing that every creator complains that no one ever thinks about]" rant. ^^; Which is fine, I guess, but...as a mature creator, I've heard all this before. And I'd offer two responses, straight off:

1) People spend a lot of time talking about characters because it's one of the few things that every comic is basically guaranteed to have. Not every comic will have fight scenes; not every comic will even have environments (yes, abstracted/character-focused comics do exist). However, 99.99% of comics WILL feature an entity doing a thing. It's really as simple as that.

2) If you want to see certain discussions on a forum, you need to start them. =T It's kinda how it works.
People have spoken about these things here before; I know for a fact that I've participated in discussions about fight choreography and environmental storytelling. But not many people start them, and not many people contribute to them, so you don't see many of them.
If you're frustrated with all the "stuff about your character" threads (btw, most of those are created by the same person...we know exactly who you're talking about; you can't vaguepost on a forum this small ⚆_⚆; ) you should put your money where your mouth is and start coming up with discussion topics that invite people to share their thoughts about other things. Otherwise this whole rant rings pretty hollow...it's easy to complain about a community; it's a lot harder to actually push it in a new direction.

So this point specifically...again, I agree with some of it. Like, yes, backgrounds are important elements of visual storytelling; if you're going to use them you should try to have fun with them and get the most out of them, rather than treating them as lifeless obligations.

But...I mean...let's be real here...the background is not always a character. o_o The environment in which the characters are standing is not always 'essential'. Sometimes the same interaction could easily be happening in multiple locations: the dramatic confrontation between two classmates could be happening at the bus stop, or the school hallway, or at the mall. The newest member of the adventuring party could join up at a pub, or a busy marketplace, or on a ship headed out to sea.

And a lot of the time, choosing which location to add into the story can simply boil down to what inanimate objects you want a character to be fiddling with or leaning against while they talk. Whatever you think would be fun to draw; whatever you feel you can handle that day. And there's...nothing actually wrong with that. :T If the comic artist would rather focus on other things, that's fine. I see no reason to judge them for not making their environments viscerally important in every single scene.

And maybe this is a hot take, but I think you can 1000% absolutely skip out on a background whenever you like. When it's done well, the reader will not notice or care (unless they're one of those people who pedantically insist that the background must always be present and consistent down to the minute details because 'realism'...that's a reader you can afford to lose, imo).

The reason many comic artists 'replace things with gradients' (outside of valid stylization) is not because they are lazy; it's because making comics is HARD WORK and you can easily put more effort into a panel that needs it when you save that effort on the panels that don't. The same goes for animation-- you'll see these shortcuts appearing in any medium where an artist will have to make thousands of drawings and spend years of their life just to tell a single story.

And yeah, some artists don't take shortcuts; some will be willing to trade more years of their time for the extra detail, and the level of meticulous work that they want. But at the end of the day it's their choice. And whether or not that choice harms their work should be based on more than just 'they omitted something'. Every artist who doesn't work in photorealism chooses to omit something; in and of itself it's not a fault, and pointing it out is not a real criticism.

I hope I don't sound angry or offended, I'm really not. I'm just pushing back against what feels like an unfair overgeneralization based on a wobbly argument. Like...it seems to me that you simply have a preference for comics where environments are more important-- i.e. action-heavy comics with lots of (grounded) combat. But you've overlooked the fact that they're just not as popular, especially not here on Tapas...and thus, you've conflated "other people aren't using the same elements of visual storytelling that I use" with "other people don't care as much about VITAL elements of visual storytelling as I do".

Those are not the same thing. ._. And I really think you should keep that in mind.

SpectreFirst · Feb 17

First of all, let’s make a few things clear:

This topic is not about a universal rule which must be applied in 100% cases and I have never said that it should, it’s specifically about constructing action scenes and establishing shots where creating a fully functional environment is a requirement because it determine action sequences, create a much more natural flow of events and make your narrative clear and coherent by providing proper context. If your comic is just a gag strip with two characters in front of a backdrop talking to each other then of course you don’t need an environment because it will add nothing to the narrative and is not needed for constructing sequences.
Environment is not always interactive so of course it can also act as a non-essential backdrop and of course you don’t need to reconstruct every single detail every single time but only if skipping it doesn’t critically affect the narrative and spatial perception.
Working around your limitations and cutting corners is always essential in any complex long-term work, but cutting corners should not harm the final product more than is absolutely necessary; there is a big difference between being efficient and being lazy.

it's easy to complain about a community; it's a lot harder to actually push it in a new direction.

That’s not the point, the point is why people are overly focused on one aspect of a story-telling mechanism instead of focusing on several more important aspects which are much more difficult to handle. I get it, people are endlessly chewing character traits because it’s easy, obvious and pretty much self-explanatory but that is also my point – what’s the point of endlessly discussing the same obvious things when there are much more difficult, interesting and important topics to handle?
Again, not everyone needs a proper action choreography or complex narrative construction but I highly doubt that 90% of authors here create gag strips or make their comics in a Watching-Paint-Dry genre which have essentially no plot and where nothing is going on.

Kelheor · Feb 17

It's mostly a forum full of newbie creators, a lot of them haven't even draw a proper background till five days ago. Most of us draw our characters for many, many years before we start drawing a comic and with it, backgrounds.
Even in the pro scene, you will find little to no information on them - a lot of artists you will find are drawing "landscapes" to their heart's content, it's nigh on impossible to find a profound topic on creating and drawing proper environment. Is it because people are usually more interested in the characters? Or because drawing environment is inherently more difficult? Maybe all of it. Anywho if someone has the idea of creating entertaining and educational threads on the topic - by all means, they are welcome to do so, people will be happy to learn something.

SpectreFirst · Feb 17

Anywho if someone has the idea of creating entertaining and educational threads on the topic - by all means, they are welcome to do so, people will be happy to learn something.

Hmm, it’s actually a lot harder than it seems because when I try to fit all of my notes into a topic it quickly becomes a ten page essay so let’s try to make something succinct:

So the topic of the day is:

What is your method of planning and constructing an environment?

Following the video I’ve mentioned at the very beginning, it was said that you can just start drawing random shapes and eventually it will magically transform into a complex level with an interesting walk-through, properly balanced combat and everything but in my experience this is like saying that if you want to fly a commercial airplane you just have to hop into the cockpit and start mashing buttons, it simply doesn’t work. In my experience the most efficient method is something like this:

Establish the general world logic that will determine character’s and enemies traits and behavior.
Establish the general type and style of your environment such as a tech base, a dungeon, an open or semi-open environment.
Establish the general type of combat which is actually a pivotal point for the whole thing: long- and middle range combat require long empty spaces between elements, combat against many dumb enemies like in DooM require many interconnected areas so your characters can be attacked from many different angles and elevations, combat against sentient enemies when characters and enemies are roughly the same require many loop-arounds that will allow characters to maneuver. Close-quarters combat can be drastically easier to construct because characters will be right next to each other most of the time, however, if you are planning to create a stealth sequence you will have to spend a lot of time planning routes and hiding spots.
The next most important step is to construct a quest – a set of Resident Evil type puzzles that will guide your creativity as well as guide your characters around the area. For example, your characters pass a closed door so they’ll need to find a key, then they find out that they need a generator to power up the lift which requires a battery, a duct tape to cover a security camera, a rope to descend somewhere and so on.
Construct a principal scheme by using a pathway method: add basic rectangles for rooms and corridors that will establish the general walk-through for your characters, add markers for key items and events.
Design each area separately and treat each area as a micro-quest: what will happen in this room, how combat is going to unfold, which items to place and so on.
Replace and recombine areas into one single level. Modular design is a key because it allows more freedom without having to worry about adjacent areas and you can always change the flow by repositioning areas.
Finalize the layout and add details.

In reality you have to handle all of these aspects at the same time and converge them together; this topic only covers the general process of construction without diving into the process of choosing which particular elements to use for your designs. This is one of the many things I have encountered during my research.

SpectreFirst · Feb 17

Topic number two:

“The dreadful first (and oftentimes the last) room”: How do you choose elements for your designs?

“Oh just look at references and do the same!” - we all heard that stuff a million times and I think at least some of us have already found out that again, it’s like mashing buttons in an airplane cockpit, it never, ever works unless you know exactly what you are supposed to do. If you “just look at references” you will inevitably copy all or most of their elements, consciously or not, and what about random and insane stuff like Ren and Stimpy or Twisted Tales of Felix the Cat, how do you construct something that doesn’t have any clear references at all? In reality my research went something like this:

First and foremost you must learn to analyze things – that is, to disassemble references into elements and study how and why these elements work.
If there are many references, consume as much as you can, break them down into elements and form a pool of elements in your head. Later when you’ll start constructing your own stuff your head will automatically pick elements from that soup and recombine them into something new. Every time someone says "I just start making random shapes!" in reality is never fully random, they're just using their subconscious to pick and combine elements.
If there are no clear references, analyze good and bad examples and then try to figure out a design pattern – a set of elements that makes particular work what it is. The original DooM, as strange as it may seem, also falls into this category because there are hundreds of thousands of drastically different maps so the best way to analyze them is to figure out their general design patterns.
Use randomizers to guide you – there are 2D and 3D inspiration generators which output random splats or shapes, you can also be more specific and use Inkscape’s Spray Objects tool to do the same but with more flexibility.
Randomizers can also be tremendously helpful when you have to design many similar things like sci-fi machinery – you can use some primitives or form a kit of elements and do some kitbashing, I prefer not to use someone else’s kits but it’s still a legitimate way to do it.
Sometimes you just have to sit down and doodle some random splats yourself, it may not serve well as a randomizer but it will help you to tune your head into the right state.
Use iterative workflow as much as possible but if something doesn’t work at all put it aside and save it for later.

So as we can see, in reality “Just look at references!” is a multi-step process and while everything I’ve described may seem obvious, there are lots of people who use references just for copying\tracing\remodeling without even trying to properly analyze them. Copying\tracing is a very important part of learning process but once you need to design something of your own, direct approach will only allow you to make a copy or something very similar to the original while proper analysis will give you a basis for constructing something more or less unique.

stiatent · Feb 17

You're right, it might be a challenge, and yep notes can be overwhelming for the majority of creators on here, considering hobbyists and those who prefer to learn at their own pace (most here I’d imagine do their series as an escape after a long day at work, while the kids are asleep etc). I’m guessing if you plan to reach a large number on here, maybe it’s coming up with small activities eg. quick questions based on your environment notes: where those who have might be happy to join, those who never knew might either find it inspirational or not bother at all (that choice being theirs).

It’s relatable to me because while studying game design the lecturers presented topics like this.
But seems the average creator browsing forums might feel they're being preached to if its longer than a few sentences and too instructive.

It seems to me that’s why the ‘Character question threads are successful’: a short activity, no one feels like they’re being told, no obligations and it allows people to express themselves: So you’ll probably have to borrow some of those strategies and mix 'very small doses' from your topics, according to how far you want to go with it.
Maybe you can always add a url for your notes on those 'short threads' giving participants the option to look further?

You and I may think in terms of video games (to me it's the greatest form of reference in so many ways for my genre & as you also showed in your notes) But video game examples won't appeal to everyone (unless your target audience on the forums are creators who are gamers/game devs). To me, it seems the majority here are romance writers with few action sprinkled here and there with film, animation and novels being their inspiration.
If I asked my mom or aunt about make a level in Doom they’d prolly be like “no!” So I'd imagine the same for other none-gamer creators on here too, of various ages and influences and career paths XD

All the best and keep up the research and hopefully some of this can be useful in your strategies

kyupol · Feb 18

I hate drawing backgrounds to this day...

Obviously I started out with focusing on characters during the very early stages...

In this example, the only way you can tell they're in a classroom...
- because it's explicitly mentioned
- what the characters are wearing
- the desk and book

Other than that... you have no clue where these two are fighting... are they in school? A park outside the school? In a dark back alley? In the mall parking lot (some of those have nearby trees)?

stiatent · Feb 18

@kyupol Nice, yea I feel it was the same in high school drawing characters first, think it's only after going game school the other stuff had an impression on me. Do you still hand draw stuff for is it all digital now? TG with digital you can recycle backgrounds.
Nina kicked the teacher's AZZ is the most epic opening Wedge lookin awesome rockin them trench coat n shades
I got to look around to find my old high school stories sometime speaking of for some good laughs too I remem also using lots of cuss words too for no reason lol.

SpectreFirst · Feb 18

But seems the average creator browsing forums might feel they're being preached to if its longer than a few sentences and too instructive.
You and I may think in terms of video games (to me it's the greatest form of reference in so many ways for my genre & as you also showed in your notes) But video game examples won't appeal to everyone (unless your target audience on the forums are creators who are gamers/game devs). To me, it seems the majority here are romance writers with few action sprinkled here and there with film, animation and novels being their inspiration.

And what would stop them from using the same general principles and pipelines in their own works to maximize efficiency? Video games are the one of the most, if not the most, efficient ways of story-telling, so it's not just about making a certain level for a certain game, it's about finding and using the most efficient pipelines in your project and if these pipelines come from a gamedev field then why shouldn't we use them? I hear all the time that making comics is "hard work" and how "it takes a lot of time", but any hard work that takes a lot of time involves learning, research and developing pipelines, no? And wouldn't it be a lot easier to learn from someone else's mistakes than to painstakingly making your own, especially when it's not really needed? I did my research because, as I've mentioned before, I wasn't able to find any clear guides or pipelines that would suit my needs so I had to assemble my own but when someone essentially gives you a guide on how to do your stuff more effectively, why would you treat it like "preaching"? This makes no sense to me.

SpectreFirst · Feb 18

It may sound strange, but this is very similar to alcoholism – many people don’t stop drinking not because they can’t but because they don’t see a reason why they should stop drinking. Your work seems to be focused on close-quarters combat where only a couple of characters are involved at a time so you don’t feel the need to add an environment because it won’t add anything useful and only add additional workload, but can you imagine the same scene as a Jackie Chan’s movie where these two characters are running around and actively using furniture and other things around them? Wouldn’t it be a lot more interesting than two characters just hanging around near each other?

kyupol · Feb 18

It's all digital now.

And I do understand that if I "reload" the stuff I did in high school with my current skill level, it would be far more popular than my current work.

Just need to cuss for no reason just to show the world how much of a tough guy I am... You know, I'm a 10th Dan black belt in the secret ninja martial art of kii boar do... The ultimate art of the keyboard ninja warrior

stiatent · Feb 18

Yea i hear you and yea I am aware the principles are universal, and yep clearly if one desires to push their craft further it requires research. And yep some people complain 'hard work' but that's on them to choose if to sit around and complain, do their own research or yep take an easy path based on another's' research already laid out

I guess if it were a course someone signed up for they would make a commitment to read it (because their grade depended on it) but for an open forum like this where people just drop by with zero commitment, even if it is valuable information, they're likely going to assume 'preachy' without even attempting to read it. (sort of like how most people would react to the door salesman automatically assuming the worst, and the fear of being taken out of 'your comfort zone')

Seems like most to come to the forums to promote their series, show a new art they did or catch up with friends on forum (zero commitment stuff) [can maybe research the forum and make a better assessment]. Think its about meeting those people halfway, mixing their interests with a bit of your own (provided how wide of a demographic you're going for).

It's also to avoid your own burnout too, your time and effort making informative threads, and worse if no one bothers. So smaller doses can probably help you test the waters with people on here, and overtime, people wit interest become accustomed to you as you frequently post bits. Till they're eventually like "oh look it's SpectreFist posting some more interesting facts about designing comics". By the time you feel like you're getting better feedback/ audience, maybe then you can start posting the more 'instructional' stuff".

Think of it like foreshadowing, "one of those props in your comic's environments, starting in the background and popping up frequently, first teasing the viewer as hints, till they become aware it overtime, by the time it takes front stage the viewer naturally accepts it!"
(I tried to be a lil dramatic there XD but in RL, seems the same goes for people to grow accustomed overtime or them feeling like they earned 'your trust' lol)

I have more familiar with Tapas but there's also Voyce.me that seems to be more into the action comics, you can probably check them out too?

stiatent · Feb 18

Nice!
Yep you got it much easier now then with the digital

Don't worry im sure your current work will kick butt too,
guess if you ever find inspo to reboot it those random inspiration always snap when you least expect it, it seems XD

Exactly the same logic back then XD Look all these bad words I know lol
Now I know you're a 10th Dan black belt in the secret ninja martial art of kii boar do
Tryin hard to keep up with your keyboardo awesomeness but the 5am sandman strikes
And I'm here like a vampire past my bedtime, my new years resolution to sleep early failed lolz

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