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VibrantFoxRegular
Aug '21

I'm probably gonna get shxt for this and i don't really care but i think we gotta fix our mindset on "hard work" being the be all, end all method to success

So reiterating what the title already says HARD WORK IS A JOKE. Not so much in a literal sense but more in that it does not matter how much effort you put into something because in many cases the amount of effort your put into something will not matter.

To elaborate a little the phrase "work smarter not harder" doesn't exist for no reason at all. I'll use art as an example as that's what's most relevant to me. For instance in the art community there's this split that exists where some folks think you're not a real artist if you're not drawing everything from memory and completely on your own while industry folks and folks who've been doing art for years are begging folks to realize that shortcuts and references are not only okay but highly recommended. You wont know how to draw something if you've never seen it. You can't really nail some stuff down without looking up proper reference. "You've got to know the rules to be able to bend and break them"

So what does that have to do with hard work? Everything! I got to a point where I was burning the wick at both ends spending hours on art, wearing myself out mentally and physically and causing myself such burnout that I started to hate art and in the end all that effort kind of amounted to nothing. Yes I absolutely managed to gain a little something but the reality was I was wearing myself out for next to nothing. Which is my whole point.

You shouldn't have to kill yourself with overwork just to succeed. You shouldn't be doing that period. There was someone who phrased it kind of well in that it's not about hard work but more in how you allocate your time and resources. So like yeah you can put effort into things (you wanna paint the mona lisa go ahead) but that's not the issue the thing is that you've gotta pay attention to where and how you put effort into things.

Also I'm aware this is probably all over the place but I genuinely wish we could better phrase the advice we give especially when sometimes what is thought to be good advice really isn't. Plus no one is obligated to agree with me if you've got a counterpoint I'm open to hearing it out at least but I really do think that there's too much emphasis put on volume of work and what it's supposed to earn you in turn. There's also so many other elements I could drag into the conversation of what plays into opportunities for success but I don't think this is really the place for those kinds of subjects :slight_smile:

Anyways if you managed to make it through all my ramblings what's your take on "hard work"

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FafasMcMelt
Aug '21
1

Working hard only gets you so far, working smart only gets you so far. If you're ok with being just ok, then by all means go for it. If you wan't to be great, then I disagree, hard work is a must

joannekwan(ง ˙o˙)ว here to help~
Aug '21

Yeah I agree.

I've always believed hard work can only get one so far. Yeah it's good to keep practicing and so forth, but often times it's not enough. Other factors aside, simply doing the labor isn't a guarantee for success.

Also some people are highly motivated to put hours upon hours into studies and so forth, they are energized from it. Whereas for others, all that work just kills any enjoyment. People ought to understand that everyone functions differently, just as how there are introverts and extroverts. What one person can accomplish with grinding away at their art could make another person crack and break.

I always rather encourage people to go at their own pace and to try to enjoy what they're doing. These things we create aren't a guarantee paycheck, so why break yourself trying to chase something that might not be there.

VibrantFoxRegular
Aug '21
FafasMcMelt

like i said i don't think there's zero value in the amount of effort put into something but rather how that effort is allocated and where focus is put.

I still put a lot of time and hard work into my art even if people may not see that in the final pieces that I share but I also know to balance the amount of work i'm putting into things because I refuse to break myself in the name of striving for success.

Plus I also mention that there are far more elements at play than just the amount of hard work someone puts into things but again I really don't feel like this forum is the place to discuss some of those things.

SleepingPoppy
Aug '21

I think you set it up like you were being more controversial than you really are. Because you're not actually saying hardwork is a joke, you're just saying it matters how you attribute that effort. Which is completely true.

And I would still agree that working hard is just a slice of the puzzle regardless, because depending upon what area of art you're in, there are many factors at play. How we attribute that effort is just the thing most within our control.

My only addition is just that context matters. Depending upon the conversation and relationship, its not always relevant to explain the nuance behind a piece of common advice like "work hard". Unless you're actually telling someone to go at it like they're running into a brick wall. But having conversations about those nuances is a helpful way to get that info out there, so people have the chance to think about their process, so it's still good.

(also references are the best and a I love how much smoother they make the process of soooo much art)

DiegoPalacios
Aug '21

Working hard is useless if you don't work smart. Some of the tasks are more important for success, so focussing of things with low impact is often a waste of time.

If people ask between working hard and working smart my answer is:

HGohwell
Aug '21

I have always hate the response "well just try harder" because if you haven't worked yourself to death, you haven't tried hard enough. You've got to give everything your literal all or you've not tried hard enough, and if you're still not where you want to be, you clearly didn't try hard enough. Sure.

Things like luck, platform, timing of release, trends, audience, luck, style, luck and LUCK all come into these things as well as hard work. Most things. Art, comics, novels, sports, life, jobs, everything. The idea that "just work hard" is the way to get through anything always seems so reductive and so insulting, actually. Like the idea of someone asking for advice and getting "just work hard" as a response is sorta like saying "idk how hard you are working now, but it's not enough" even though that's (probably) never the conscious meaning.

DiegoPalacios
Aug '21

"Work hard" is way too vague.....work hard in what?
character design?, world building?. marketing?, etc.....

even the points i already mention have many variables.

thecrystalrook
Aug '21

You're not wrong, comrade. Some of the hardest working people have very little to show for it while those who don't work so hard have quuuuuiiite a bit.

EncryptedWriting
Aug '21

I think you're definitely onto something. Honestly, a hard work ethic is a great thing, but knowing how you allocate that work ethic and doing so in a way that isn't demoralizing nor over-tiring is key.

VibrantFoxRegular
Aug '21
DiegoPalacios

I would say in all areas. obviously there's some nuance to specific areas of work or life or in even more specific areas of art writing and so on but again i think there's more to it than just "hard work"

as i'd mentioned there's very specific elements that play into individual success beyond the amount or time, effort or labor put into a thing but i don't want to tread too far into what some of those are as topics containing those subjects don't do well here

But_a_Jape
Aug '21

I think the reason why "work hard" is such a common piece of advice is because it's really the only actionable piece of advice you can give. It's true that most, if not all, success is ultimately more attributable to luck than effort, but you can't do anything with that. People ask, "How do I be successful?" seeking some sort of miracle answer that they can actually implement in their life, but there is none. Even successful people don't have the answer to this, because no one can comprehend the full scope of their life, decisions, and circumstances to really identify, "This is how I got where I am today."

But no one wants to hear that when they ask how to succeed, they want to be told what to do. You can't do "Be lucky." You can't do "Come from a wealthy and supportive home environment." But you can do "Work harder." It's less a formula for success and more of a coping mechanism for maintaining the illusion of control in one's life.

And "work smarter, not harder" isn't necessarily actionable advice either - it's tantamount to saying "Come up with a good idea." Well, if you were able to do that, you probably would have already, wouldn't you? Hell, maybe you already have but you just haven't seen the fruits of your idea take shape to prove you did, in fact, know what you were doing.

The way I see it, success in a field like art is essentially the same as winning the jackpot. Odds are slim and there's no such thing as a tried and true strategy, but your odds are reduced to zero if you don't play at all. So continuing to work is the same as continuing to play. And your ability to continue working is the same as still having enough money to make bets.

jmhenry
Aug '21

Kinda hard to disagree with the 'overwork is bad' message, we all agree there, don't burn yourselves out for your dreams. I think the problem most of us are having though is we're conflating the message of "success takes hard work" with "work yourself to death for no reward". We can mind our health and go at things at our page and also realize that some of the goals we set for ourselves in life require more than just our bare minimum to achieve. Hard work, in my opinion, is going jus a level or two beyond your minimum effort. If the thing your trying to achieve is something you absolutely care about, you're probably working at that level without thinking about it anyway

HGohwell
Aug '21
But_a_Jape

Tbh I wouldn't call "work harder" any more actionable than "work smarter". Say I'm already working all the hours I have spare, I'm putting hours into improving and lessons and still nothing seems to change in my popularity or readership or whatever my art goal is? Is "work harder" actually something I can do compared to more practical advice like "have you considered using X shortcut to make it easier on yourself so you have more time to look at marketing"? I don't think anyone would disagree that effort is important to an extent, but the idea of something as generic and vague as "work harder" isn't really an answer you can act on either and can easily become toxic.

I mean, saying all this, it's pretty obvious the problem is less the actual advice and more the plastering of generic and vague phrases and ideas and quotes as the ideal solution to individual situations without taking said situations into account but that's probably an entirely different discussion on the one-size fits all attitude people have to advice and progress.

rajillustration
Aug '21

I mean there comes a point where you have to get paid. Thing about webcomics is it's a huge investment of time and recourses--so like...yeah you work hard but there will come a point where you have to stop if the compensation never arrives. And this is true of any entrepreneurial venture. And it doesn't mean that you "didn't work hard enough" if you decide to step away and focus on things that can give you more compensation and appreciation without destroying your hands in the process.

Like when I sold handmade there were a lot of artisans who could make immaculate jewelry, but they took so long to make and they were so difficult to source their recourses, it could not maintain a business. Instead, it was those who were able to simplify their creations and their process while still making beautiful things who were able to thrive. You have to do the math to see what's sustainable in the long term. And that's different for every person and each unique comic.

MissFester
Aug '21

I agree for the most part.
I think a good way to sum it up is "hard work doesn't guarantee success."

But_a_Jape
Aug '21
HGohwell

I wasn't trying to suggest "work harder" was actually good advice, just trying to explain why it's so commonly given. And in regards to how "work harder" is more actionable than "work smarter," I meant that more in terms of how people could probably think of far more ways they can "do more work" than "do smarter work" - regardless of whether or not those actions actually produce results.

And as far as what the "obvious problem" is, I don't actually think it is people giving broad advice to individual situations, because the context in which I hear these sorts of discussions never seem to stem from a creator saying "Here are my life circumstances and this is the problem I need solving. With this context in mind, how can I address this issue?" The inciting question always boils down to "I'm not successful. How do I be successful?" and such a general question can only ever be given general answers.

If there is an "obvious problem," in my view it's that people are trying to find an answer to a question no one has ever actually solved: "How do I guarantee success?"

jermajay
Aug '21
rajillustration

I don't see why you would have to stop if you aren't paid? It's just a hobby, like anything else. Hell, it's a pretty cheap hobby if you actually think about it. Most sportspeople spend a lot more money and time on their hobbies, for a much lower chance of compensation.

rajillustration
Aug '21

@jermajay Depends on if it's a hobby comic or not, which depends on the person. That and like...art is really hard, we're offering comics for free. That can get really draining after a while if no one is looking.

And like I'm assuming that this thread is about the pursuit of comics as a career or a stepping stone towards other art careers.