Honest discussion about "UNPAID collabs"

[Rasp]

I know this feeling. I'm sadly not a very social person most of the time I don't know many people... I do have a small library of work to point to as evidence I can get things done but I lack the sort of professional relationships that come so easily to others. As a writer the spotlight in all on me. I always have to prove I'm not the same as the rando johnny who don't understand or appreciate the hard work they have to do to make something worth reading.

Artists can simply draw something to show what they're capable of - most people with functional eyes can recognize quality artwork.... Writers cant do that so easily. You can throw together a writing sample I've done countless. Nobody reads them. Most of the time it feels pointless and its far FAR easier to fake being a good writer in short form than it is in long. Even those with the patience to read your sample few will read it if its terribly long.

Hell it feels like I MUST have artwork or something beyond just my words.... or nobody is going to care.

[skicoak]

Or at least show a page of scripts or a small idea and ask if anyone has interest.

I think beyond a lot of these appeals just being folks with very little to show...expecting them to relinquish the "power" of picking/choosing their own team would break the illusion of their dream.

If they had to seek out the individuals and ASK... that puts them in the vulnerable position of rejection and reality.

[skicoak]

exposure).

I feel like suggesting a potential revenue split if the comic makes money is worse that just writing unpaid because it could trick inexperienced artists into projects for free as there is no way to guarantee that a comic will make money. Artists who would have so much more to lose in terms of time they could be spending on their own work or paid commissions, while the writer even if they don't make money they gained a drawn comic.

I agree. That's why on other threads I always suggest if it's an unpaid split that it's heavily weighed to the artist since they assume the greater workload sacrifice/loss.

[deltastic]

It sounds like you must be doing something right, because what you wrote in the pullout quote and your ideas about how to work with artists all sound spot-on to me

Maybe it can be harder for a writer to "snag" someone, than with "shiny" artwork in the same way that can be seen at a glance, but I think if you stick with it, people will take notice. Just finding people who you click with and who have similar interests to you, might be way more important than writing that perfect attractive blurb or snippet that will get people to flock to you.

I think that a lot of that writer-vs-artist warring comes from that fact, that art at a glance can be consumed and judged instantly, and that writing requires effort. It's like a blessing and a curse, but it's also the way the medium works. In the same way, writers can express so much more and more quickly than someone ever has hope of drawing to the speed of. I'd urge you not to despair, but rather to keep at it! Just keep creating what you enjoy sincerely, and attract the people who enjoy it.

[ar-ninetysix]

it's kinda disheartening to see so many threads with people from our own community trying to get free work without really even understanding how much time and effort goes into making comics.

That's exactly it, people just have no reference of how much effort goes into it. I know I certainly didn't! The screwed up thing is, I have a 12-year-old sister who draws in her anime style and it can take like 2-4 hours draw a full color piece she's satisfied with. So, while I have that reference in mind, I still just took the artist's labor for granted. I just expected people to wanna help me on a webcomic back then, not thinking anything of how much work goes into a comic for some reason.

I would hate for an artist looking for more comic experience to get roped into working on someone else project that could be like 100 chapters long, with nothing to gain.

That's essentially what I was trying to do back then without realizing it. There's no immediate frame of reference for how much goes in to those 100 chapters for the general public, and I don't think that first-time writers (which is like the usual people asking for unpaid 100 chapter ventures) feel like they need one on hand. I know I personally underestimated the process, man. I thought it'd be as simple as finding someone who was just as invested.in my idea and continue working on it with me on a long-term project. Not so. Even just doing it for fun, that's a crazy amount of dedication to put on someone to keep drawing for you.

These are just my thoughts on the topic, I'm interested in hearing what you think?

Honestly, there's a slew of first time writers who assume that their story is going to be flawless, and like they deserve someone who wants to be as invested and help them. They see art as another basic creative skill like writing. They don't consider how much goes into the artist getting to the level they're at, and consider it easy. The type that thinks "I wanna see this and this and this happening over this and that" is easy to draw in like 10 minutes.

It just boils down to either these writers just wanting to own an IP, or just asking people if they want to be an art slave without them realizing it. The latter is exactly what I did, and I'm not too proud of that. I get where they're coming from, but I do think the majority of them having unfinished projects or having no previous work really stops them from getting the help they want. Couple that with wanting to keep the original idea from being stolen. "Can't show it to people, they might steal everything I worked for-" Yeah, no, everyone's basically busy with their own. Get over yourself lol

All in all, it makes me sad, to be honest. Not only to see artists treated that way, but to see potential writers give up on their ideas when they find out how difficult the process can be and part of that can be other artists hounding them down for not respecting the potential partner's work. Some of these guys just don't know that that's what they're doing, and had they known, they might've gone about it differently. I try my best to point stuff like that out in a polite way, and to see some of them (away from my personal experiences) stay stubborn about their awful offer sucks.

Also if you have collaborated on an unpaid project I'm interested in hearing your experience with it, whether you are a writer or an artist.

With all that said lol I made an unpaid offer for a one-shot (which could've been a potential series) and made it a point that the story could be changed on the behalf of the artist. Found someone interested (shoutout to the lovely Kaetana!), we talked it over, she asked for a more detailed script, and I sent it. She said I should turn it into a novel because she saw some skill in my writing. And she wanted to still be a part of it while she was working on her own comic! So, we worked out a better deal and now she's in it for the long run. The overall dynamic and nature of the project itself changed, but I think it happened for the better.

If these people were open to keeping their ideas small, and changing the overall nature of it, I'm positive they'll be a in way better position to ask for that kind of help.

[deltastic]

I think beyond a lot of these appeals just being folks with very little to show...expecting them to relinquish the "power" of picking/choosing their own team would break the illusion of their dream.

Oh no it's too real. LOL. I laugh at how much these creative partnerships are so much like online dating. If you put your real self forward or a photo you're giving power to the other person... so legit. But being real and vulnerable is the only way to true connection...? or rich and famousness? :I If you don't give a little how can you expect a stranger to throw themselves at your mercy? ahaha! You get it~

[Rasp]

In truth a lot of what I have a passion for... feels like something only I would be interested in. I mean I wrote a whole visual novel about the relationship between a lesbian cop in an underground cyberpunk city where its always raining and her wife a doctor who is currently on parole for domestic abuse.

It's not really something that's been done before that I know of.

Hell the comic I'm working on now Red Lilies? That started with the idea of an Empress of a recently defeated nation rising to power and trying to fulfill her dream of a harem of beautiful brides while contending with the affairs of state and a war brewing.

I dunno where to begin finding people with common interests and believe me I've TRIED. I feel like part of the reason I'm motivated to make these is because far as I can tell only I have both the ability and inclination.

[Rhonder]

I feel like suggesting a potential revenue split if the comic makes money is worse that just writing unpaid because it could trick inexperienced artists into projects for free as there is no way to guarantee that a comic will make money.

This is more or less my stance on the matter. I think that unpaid collaborations aren't (necessarily) bad conceptually, but sugar coating it with "well I can't pay you now... BUT WHEN WE HIT THE BIG TIME I WILL" somehow feels deceitful xD Would rather just be told "unpaid, we're doing this for fun" and make a decision based on that (since that's what it comes down to either way). Quoting my reply on a similar thread from earlier this week:

"As long as artists (and writers!) are smart and only enter into collaborations that involve projects that they feel are worth their time, everyone wins :> The flip side is if you feel as though the project is only valuable as a paid work (aka commission) and you're being paid nothing or less than your worth for the work put in, don't accept."

This is a great way to put it, actually. The problem with most of these collaboration proposals is that many of the people proposing them aren't pitching a story that will actually attract an artist to work on it by their own interest, but also lack the funds or want to just make it as a commissioned work, so they pass them off as "collaborations" instead with the splashed in "exposure/future profits" as a way to soften the blow. It seems as though in a true collaboration where both parti…

[Croik]

This is more or less my stance on the matter. I think that unpaid collaborations aren't (necessarily) bad conceptually, but sugar coating it with "well I can't pay you now... BUT WHEN WE HIT THE BIG TIME I WILL" somehow feels deceitful xD Would rather just be told "unpaid, we're doing this for fun" and make a decision based on that (since that's what it comes down to either way).

Definitely this. Especially if someone comes to Tapas looking for a partner, with the intent to post ON Tapas. Unless you're specifically intending to pitch for Premium or Incubator, it IS dishonest to suggest that a first time collaboration on "community" Tapas is going to make a good profit, at least within the first few years. Everyone will tell you that ad revenue here is basically nothing and tips require a lot of extra incentive for anything equal to an artist's actual per-page rate. Better to go in with the expectation that you're here to have fun, get experience, and engage with the community.

[Karmillina]

I for one would never ever draw for a stranger without any sort of payment involved. Working for strangers for free sounds like horrible trouble: you are potentially spending time, energy, resources, with someone you do not know how they work, how trustworthy they are, with half-assed generic pitches or no pitch at all.. They don't feel like a team because they have nothing to start with. also, I have never seen a collab like that that has taken off, let alone started... seems like empty search. simply put, I have never seen them work at all. A 50-50 split also is not fair. Story is important yes, but drawing takes an extremely long amount of time. I have been asked to participate in collabs with not even a pitch, people trying to get free art from me, and I wonder: if I barely have time for my own comic, what makes you think I want to work on yours with no pay? It might sound awful, but I do both write and draw, and I have a day job to keep, and my own aspirations to work on. If I collab for free and for fun, it will only be with people I wholeheartedly trust. People posting these unpaid ads need you much more than you need them.

[AmysGames]

My opinion on the "unpaid collab" threads that pop up all the time (and maybe this is inaccurate) is that most of them are from users who created their account yesterday and have posted like twice ever, so uh. I don't usually pay them much attention lol.

That said, I agree that I think I would only do unpaid work for someone I know and trust. And even then, it depends on how much work is involved/how invested I am in it personally.

[joannekwan]

is that most of them are from users who created their account yesterday and have posted like twice ever

This is sooooo true!!
Like they didn't even bother setting up their avatar!

[ratique]

I've worked with a writer before, technically for free. Difference being, I was the one who picked him because I liked his work.

Free work is never advised unless it's a project you love and truly want to do. Then it can be a very fulfilling experience.

I believe most of the 'unpaid collabs' threads don't go anywhere. People rarely reply with much other than questioning the lack of information or pay. I'm just ignoring them at this point.

[Luminosophy]

All I can think of now is if someone were to proposition an artist to be "paid in exposure" for their work, the artist should demand a mathematical proof that meets a requirement of 5,000 exposure a week. You said you were "paying" with it, so show me how you'll do it.

[Hodge]

I still do unpaid collabs, but its really just me wanting to draw something pressure free. I keep them casual and writers don't usually mind since I'm hands off with the story while they get some artist to draw their stuff for free. Its just a quick (relative of course shit still take a long time) easy project and at least I'm making something to put in my portfolio or gain fans or practice. Basically I'm using a writer to scratch an itch, so don't really care if its just 50/50 unpaid. I think of it like fulfilling art requests or the like (which I've done countless on this forum). It's fun, lighthearted, and mainly for my own enjoyment.

However, I have tried to seriously do the super long epic fully colored comic collab with a writer (unpaid of course). And he was a pretty good and involved writer that I didn't mind 50/50 much. I took it serious but after a few months it was just too much for free. Took a lot of time and effort. After making 70 panels for free and really good initial reception you'd think some payment, any really, that wasn't way way off in the future would be a reasonable expectation. Its easy to get drawn into the initial excitement of a project, but ya gotta keep long-term in mind.

[monotone_ink]

I believe unpaid collabs are fantastic when both parties have a common goal they are seeking to achieve.

With how unpaid collabs are sought in this forum, both parties are practically strangers to each other - thus, there's a sort of disconnect, and it's likely that the project never takes off.

However, when both parties are practically friends, it is more likely that the work takes off and goes smoothly - this is because both parties communicate with one another much closely, and have equal levels of input and control throughout the entirety of the project.

When it comes to participating in unpaid collaborations, I think the best way to do so is to only go into projects that are simple, small, and within the scope of both parties' abilities (e.g. It's something you could finish in a few months or something).

Take a look at the inspiring story of this vocaloid artist named ryo - he made his success purely through collaborating with various artists and making something both parties equally contributed to:

Also, this video would be helpful for most people on this forum.

[fuyudust]

I think unpaid collabs are fine if the thread starters took it seriously and had their plans ready, not just some rough, general idea in their head.
When I click on one of those thread, I'm expecting information: their name, gender, job, nation, languages, old works... Then their story genre, summary, character bio, and at least a script/storyboard of the first episode. And one or two pictures of the artstyle they are looking for.
I would totally interested in working with someone that decent enough to provide those information directly on the thread (ofc they can hide the privative information that they feel uncomfortable to be public, but I would like to know how many time and mind they can pour in the project ).
Too bad all the threads these days are just "hey I have an idea in my head and looking for someone to make it real together, dm for more details", I would just ignore those.

[amortelito]

I think that unpaid collabs are totally fine if both people get similar benefits and put an equivalent amount of work into it. I think the problem is that many posts are NOT asking for a collab.

-Free labor request: Hey, I get to decide what we are going to do, you have to adapt to my style, you have no say on the manuscript just shut up and make those sketches as I ask you to. Send your curriculum, I'm very picky even though I'm not paying you. (yes literally something like this was posted a month ago).

Make my dream manga: Hi, am a kid with no skills for drawing or money. I often fantasize about a story I have not written. Can you make a full manga about it? I would somewhat tell you some scenes.

Let's become famous! : I have this winner idea for a comic, I have the script, I have the idea of making a youtube channel and merch and amazing stuff!! We will share the profits...Of course, we are relying on the idea of the project becoming instantly popular and we will be rich! For now just draw everything for free.

[fleohr]

What bothers me most is that most of the writers who ask this are recently new users like, they just created an account to find a free labor, not even interact with people to gain trust or something. It makes me wonder if they are all the same person

And some create a post and never returns to this forum to see if someone is interested lol. My OCD can't handle these "collab" threads

[kip]

Hey.
If you've been looking around the 'Collaboration' forums, you've probably seen me.
While comics are my hobby, in terms of art most of my time goes on paid commission work. I've also worked (and am working) on paid comics work. I've also done non-paid comic work collaborations with friends and my comic group, as well as with The Comic Jam project.

Personally, I love unpaid collaborations.

I feel like we've been pushing for artist to get payed properly for years and it's kinda disheartening to see so many threads with people from our own community trying to get free work

I completely agree with this statment, but it's importnat to understnad that's not what all unpaid collaborations are. Most of these people are kids, unexperienced, unable to pay, and probably with a pretty shoddy unoriginal high fantasy idea about 4 kingdoms and their epic battle. (Not to say that kind of genre isn't with it's own merits, Avatar tla was great, but at some point you notice a pattern.)

Many of them were passion projects where everyone who participated were highly interested in the final product、

Thiss is what we should all be looking for. Projects we love aren't work for us, just like the comics we write outselves. Working with other people is fun, it's motivating, there's no reason we, as artist, should look at that as work-only. A poject can, without a doubt, gian from having an experienced writer and an experienced artist working together, and both doing it because they love & believe in the idea.

How to know which collaborations to avoid? (general guidelines, none of these are a must)

• Can't say how long the collbaoration is
  (seriously, you'll see me bring this up every time, if your wrtier can't tell you if a comic is 10 or 1000 pages that is the biggest red flag)

• "I won't say my idea because you'll steal it, PM me for more details"
  (Usually comes from extremely young artists covering their magnum opus, you do not want to go there, will cover later)

• We split profits 50/50
  (the chances profits will even be split-able is so low, if your writer is focusing on that you probably want to avoid working on the project. Not to mention, 50/50 is far from fair)

• Incomplete ideas
  (if the writer is only pitching you a worldbuild rather than a plot. Using my own comic as an example, if I said, "it's a story about a guy who hallucinates he's an angel" vs "It's a story about a guy who beleives he's an angel, following his attempt to get professional help during a portion of his life where the hallucinations seep into other people in his life and affect his relationships with them, eventually resulting in a violent response from him to try and understand what's going on in his life.")

• Inexperience.
  (If your writer has never finished a manuscript before. Be it a novel, comics, or something else completely, if your writer is unable to put in that last sentence and call the piece done, don't trust they'll be able to with your story either)

• Self Deprecation
  (This isn't a must, but each coin has two sides. just like artists who're sure their ten-million page comic is going to be the next lord of the rings in comic form, if the writer's going to type up a paragraph about how imperfec they are and how bad their writing is but please work for them anyway, you're likley looking at a bed you don't want to put your head into. the line between self hate and modesty is THick, don't miss it)

• Adaptation
  (the novel is already complete, now the writer wants someone to illustrate it. That's not a collaboration, it's free work, and you shouldn't do it.)

• Magnum Opus
  (touched on this before but here it comes again; don't work on someone's magnum opus. The peice of their life, their big passion project, the script they put 15 years into. Most of the time, magnum opus stories aren't actually good- they're overdone and overthought and overworked, they're long as hell, and the writer has such a stong image in their head everything you'll do will seem like compromising. Don't put yourself in that position)

• Don't overwork yourself.
  (calculate how long the project is, if the writer is asking for 150, 350 pages and you've never worked with them before- don't do it. You're risking months, sometimes years, of your life for a script you don't know you'll be able to go through with and you don't know the wrtier will be able to go through with.)

How do I know which collabs to join? (general guidelines, none of these are a must)

• You want to join a collaboration
  (this isn't for everyone. if you're coming into this thinking 'gosh i can't believe im doing free art for this thing', or 'id rather work on my own projects' you're probably not suited to work in an unpaid collaboration, in which case this thread is pretty irrelevant to you and you're better off saving the heartache for you and the writer)

• Everything I said shouldn't be missing before, exists

• Know who you're working with
  (check out their work, check out their involvment in the forums, ask for their discord and just get to know eachother for a week -and yes, iv'e personally done this. Get to know who you're going to be spending your time with.)

• Communication!
  (the most important part of any relationship. make sure the two of you can talk, about the collab, about the work, figure out your battle-plan, because different artists want different things, and different writers want different things. there is no cookie cutter solution here, so make your own collaboration work for you)

• Take a look at at least portions of the finished script
  (I've personally agreed to work on a project i thought sounded amazing, but then when i read the first few paragraphs i realized- this is not what i had in mind at all. even though we both loved the exact same niche-as-fuck genre and made a solid idea together, in the execution the writer focused on everything i disliked and threw away my favourite parts. this doesnt mean it wasnt a good story, just that it wasnt a good fit for us to work togehter. you can't really know what something will look like..till you see what it looks like)

• Bonus:

• Writer is also an artist
  (this is a BIG non-must, but ive seen that collaborations work a lot better for me when the other person is an artist as well. artists tend to know better what a panel will look like -for example, ive had writers tell me what a room smells like-, how hard something will be to pull off, how much details and conversation can go in one panel. The technicalaties. And sometimes can even help with thumbs, chararacter design, etc)

• Don't join out of necessity.
  (this is a bit hard to figure out but... if your writer is picking you becuase you're the only one willing to join, not because they actually enjoy your work, you're both probably gonna find yourself a bit unsatisfied)

So all of that said, I wish all of you good luck finding your dream projects,
and if you're a writer who went through all those comments and you're looking for an artist..
hmu.