How do y'all feel about people direct messaging you asking you to subscribe?

[abigaillmartin]

What’s the AF Tournament?

[king-goldfish]

Well I would be the first to say I am absolutely not the only one who gets anything lmao. I do understand how hard it is trying to find the "right" ways to market. Marketing altogether feels a little slimy to me, but as independent creators, we don't really have a choice in the matter. If it's between feeling slimy and never getting a pair of eyes on my writing, I'll be straight-up Moo Deng. But I do try to keep in mind how the way I'm promoting myself might make other people feel. And I think that's what rubs me the wrong way about directly DMing people, after subbing to their project, to ask for them to sub back. It's the guilt-trip aspect of it. I think if someone DMed me WITHOUT subbing to my novel first, and just straight up asked me to sub to theirs, I'd respect that more. Do you know what I mean? It's the trying to weasel you into sub4sub you didn't agree to that annoys me. It puts the person who receives that DM in an uncomfortable situation.

I'm definitely not trying to roast anyone in particular for doing this, though. I'm not out here naming names lol. I honestly wanted to ask what other people thought about the tactic because there have been a few times I committed a Tapas faux pas without noticing it (I didn't realize the comments section in people's novels/comics was not really for critique until someone told me writers/artists will directly ask for feedback if they want it--otherwise keep your critiques to yourself), and I wondered if this was one of those things that's normal and acceptable, and I just didn't know.

[king-goldfish]

The Action-Fantasy tournament going on right now. Here's the details: https://www.creators.tapas.io/tapas-af-tourney

[BreeBaxter]

I think the way you frame the situation can make all the difference. Like, when you say DMing people after subbing is 'weaseling into sub4sub,' it already sets the tone that something shady’s going down, ya know? But what if we flipped it?

Maybe instead of seeing it as a guilt trip, it’s just someone hoping for a bit of reciprocity in this wild creator hustle? It’s not inherently a bad thing, but I totally get why it feels a little awkward!

It’s interesting how just tweaking the language around it shifts the whole vibe. We can feel frustrated about a tactic without assuming the worst intentions behind it, you know?

[joannekwan]

It's a spam tactic, like getting junk mail. They try to cast a wide net and hopefully get a couple of bites.
It was common several years ago but more veteran creators had the time and patience to educate the newbies that this was a bad look for their series.

Currently in the past couple of years there has been a great influx of new creators (especially if the promo threads are any indication) and some get the idea that direct DMs are a good marketing strategy. But there are fewer veterans around now as they have moved on or simply have redirected their focus from the community.

[axelruler]

The problem for me is this: readers don't come to the forum, writers do. I've only been here for a day and I've already noticed the flaw in the forum's dynamics, we're all writers competing for readers.

Well, I'm a guy who studies a lot of things and normally I wouldn't stop to read other people's stories, because I don't have time, but I read some stories by others and like them.

[axelruler]

Hi Joanne, don't you think the forum dynamics could be improved a little? We are all writers competing for readers, and readers have no reason to come to the forum, I think this detail could make a lot of difference.

[vapidink]

Nope, sorry, but no one should have to watch how they frame things to avoid hurt feelings when they have a valid complaint they're voicing. Especially when no one is being named and no one is being overly harsh and many others have voiced the same feelings.

Personally, I don't care if people do sub4sub, you do you and I even think it can be good for creators starting out who need a little boost. But it's distasteful when it's done for a contest entry and especially when it's unsolicited. In that case, I think their intentions are clear, especially when they're literally saying "I subbed to yours, now sub to mine" to people who never asked for that. To me it's just a way to guarantee I never look at your work.

[king-goldfish]

But is it honest reciprocity? You can see the time stamps on people's subs/likes/comments--if someone subbed and liked three chapters all in the same minute, what are the chances they actually read anything? It strikes me as dishonest, but perhaps you're right, and I'm reading into it too much. Maybe the person doing it assumes the creator they're DMing to ask for sub4sub knows sincere reading/engagement is not expected in this transaction.

I don't think it's wrong to look for reciprocity at all. I've made a lot of friends on this site from reading and commenting on stories written by people who were reading and commenting on mine. I've certainly commented on stories I admired, hoping that the author would want to read mine, too! But I think there's a difference between putting in that effort to build the basis for a reciprocal relationship and... spoofing engagement, I guess, for lack of a better way to phrase it.

And I get we all have limited time. You can't read every novel and comic on Tapas. You can't honestly engage with everyone who drops you a like. It's worth considering that maybe the people DMing asking for sub4sub aren't expecting you to be fooled by the sub/likes but just to appreciate your numbers going up enough that you'll make their numbers go up, too. But what's really the point of the numbers going up if they don't reflect people actually enjoying the things you've created?

Well, I guess I have my answer to that part, anyway, and it's that there's a tournament going on right now that's encouraging people to get their numbers up by any means necessary. So, that's understandable.

[joannekwan]

But there isn't really a way to get readers onto this forum.
Tapas has tried to make threads in the past for readers during reading events, but they will just make one response post and don't really stay to check out the rest of the forum and other threads.

I've seen the occasional reader make threads to fan over a series they like, but those threads get 0 traction with no responses.

[itsforevermonday]

Something with the contest I think messed up a lot was this in the rules pages

I feel like those words give writers the excuse to slide into the DMs of other writers. I understand what Bree was trying to say, and it's a really valid point, but don’t feel bad for speaking up or voicing your concerns. I was literally blocked from the Discord after I spoke up about how other writers were treating smaller creators trying to make it. It left a bad taste in my mouth about the company, but also it did not make me quit writing my story or the contest since I already have readers looking up for the updates, and if I need to keep doing it, I will. It's just that a lot of things are not helping right now.

[conventurecomics]

Hey I'd love that to be messged privatly for me to subscribe it could be both ways they subbed and haven't gotten a sub back in return. I do that to especially when I'm a fan of a creator's work when they say they sub back if you sub me then they don't. Also when they subscribe to your work and you don't sub back they may message you to sub. As long as they are not spamming or just taking your sub then don't sub back. It works if they will stick around while subscribing to your work.

[king-goldfish]

I was literally blocked from the Discord after I spoke up about how other writers were treating smaller creators trying to make it.

Oh yikes, that sounds awful! It does feel a bit high school popularity contest, doesn't it? I'm sorry that happened to you.

I'm making myself get more comfortable with social media and self-promotion, because that's the world we live in, but it doesn't mean I have to like that that's the world we live in lol.

I hope your novel does well, and I'm glad the experience didn't make you give up, though I totally understand it souring you on the company.

[joannekwan]

I was literally blocked from the Discord after I spoke up about how other writers were treating smaller creators trying to make it.

On the Tapas Discord? I don't recall any official action by the mods against an account for an instance like this. If you would like to message me about this, my DMs are open here and on Discord.

[itsforevermonday]

Thank you, but no worries! I'm glad I have a thick skin, but I'm sad for those who don't.

[itsforevermonday]

Sure, I will be happy to!

[diamantecreate]

I feel the pressure. I'd rather they just said hi and didn't tell me they liked it so that I would subscribe. You don't have to 'like' something to like it. It's just a button if they don't even read it.

[BreeBaxter]

Look, besties, I’m not here to argue or, like, change your whole worldview or whatever. I respect your opinion, for real.

But, just to be clear, I wasn’t telling people to sugarcoat things just to avoid hurting feelings. What I was saying is that the way we frame stuff can, like, sneak in the conclusion we want people to draw—and that’s basically just playing word games.

All I was trying to say is that the people being demonized are still, you know, real humans. If that’s too spicy for some, then, well... sorry, not sorry.

[irr11tauthor]

(post withdrawn by author, will be automatically deleted in 24 hours unless flagged)

[irr11tauthor]

I'm sorry, but that is not what happened in the discord. A very civil conversation about sub4sub culture was happening, mostly BY small creators about the people with huge sub4sub numbers, and you came out an accused me, personally, of a lot of untrue things and incredible rude and hurtful words were tossed around to people trying to defend me. But that's not for here.

Normally I would ignore and not speak up, but as I am the person you came after in that conversation, I fear for false information about me to spread, and about others in that conversation who came to my aid. Please keep the drama between the people involved. There is NO need to involve the people from outside the situation.

Thank you