How many of you practice the art fundamentals and do studies?

[joannekwan]

I mean, I don't do studies anymore really since I did all that in college in my art courses.
I suppose if I were trying to nail down a particular lighting scenario or something I would.

But keep in mind a lot of people here are just starting out on their art journeys, perhaps they are doing studies outside of their comics or planning to do so. Maybe they can't afford to take a month off JUST to do studies and comics are really only a hobby for them, just something fun to make to destress from life.

[punkarsenic]

you dont really see many topics about studies.

huh. i guess so... there used to be a lot of conversations on the forums about fundamentals in various different contexts, and youll find a lot of artists on here are practising the fundamentals in their own time. sometimes things people talk about a lot on the forums just fluctuate based on whos on and where theyre at, dont take it as much of an indicator for the community at large.

that said, id love to see some more conversations about, say, colour theory or anatomy resources, or somewhere to share their latest studies. could always set them up yourself?

style should be the very last thing on the list.

ehhhh

like, i agree, but also dont think thats a pragmatic approach. a lot of people making comics here are teenagers (c'est moi) or in their early 20s, very much still figuring things out, and i think its something you can parallel run. you can be developing a style, and developing your understanding of the fundamentals. if we create a belief that you cant get started on actual comic making until youve got all these fundamentals down, many people will just never start.

i find, that when it comes to fundamentals and studies, a lot of younger people dont do them, and dont take them seriously. but theyre in their first few years of their craft, and very soon they will realise the value of fundamentals. id just give them time, and the resources and information to get there maybe a little sooner.

[Luminosophy]

I try to leave my studies to "outside" work if that makes sense. My comic is where I bring everything I've learned together, the pure "style" aspect. If there's anything I noticed I struggled with in particular, it's just something to beat into the ground in sketches because I want everything in my comic to be consistent. Experimenting is left to speedpaints and the like. I've felt I'm at the point where if I stopped studying for a while I could feasibly get away with it (been drawing for what... 24ish years now?), because I want to spent more time improving my writing ability. I might work with one but having both people understand it is just... better.

Granted I will say nothing has improved me faster than doing comics. I would make significant leaps in just 3 months compared to a couple years when I only did illustrations. Though I do think there is something to be said for trying difficult subjects without always defaulting to tools like sketch up. I found that it's actually faster to draw environments without it once I just got into it enough.

[orchidesyl]

Me! There's a lot of learning and improving you can get from doing studies and learning the fundamentals, and it helps if you can't think of anything to draw or don't know how to fill a sketchbook.

Though, I only recommend it if you have the time and or desire to improve or do studies.

[Hodge]

I mean . . . like every day haha, but I suppose I tend to be rather ambitious with my art. It's kind of a problem, since comics aren't really about making every panel a masterpiece. I have other online communities for more art focused kind of stuff, though I wouldn't mind discussing art more often here. When people have posted things for an art critique they generally receive great advice, but it takes a bit of courage to ask, and fundamentals are important but can be rather boring.

I enjoy the drawing challenges or draw your oc kind of threads, so maybe we could try to make something similar in combination with art studies.

[BloodOgre]

Ah I remember you, you're the one with the insane work ethic. Why don't you do studies anymore if you don't mind me asking? I believe they're highly important throughout the lifespan of an artist. You look at michelle czajkowski(Ava's Demon) and WLOP(Ghostblade) and hell Ilya Kuvshinov (Chromatiq) who have worked tooth and nail on their comics and studies continuously and look at where they are now. I realize that these guys are also considered to be cream of the crop in the artworld right now, but it also isn't by chance.

I'm not saying everyone should take a long hiatus to just practice studies, that's just for me personally, all the same I believe people need to practice these fundamentals like crazy if they are serious about making comics. Just my perspective, I know a lot of people here are young and just getting their legs in art but fundamentals are called the fundamentals for a reason, they are where you start or rather where you're supposed to start.

[joannekwan]

Well, as I said before, I've done all the hard-core studies during college. We spent hours in life drawing just focusing on different body parts and such, and we had gesture study homework in drawing class, and lighting studies in painting. I've already done it. I don't feel like doing MORE unless I absolutely have to.

And just because your art looks fabulous doesn't mean you have a good comic. I'm not disregarding the artists you've listed, their comics just aren't for me story-wise. Some of my favorite comics have more "basic" art, but that's because writing is HALF the comic. Like American Born Chinese, Gene Luen Yang's art is in a fairly simple cartoon style, but that story resonated with me. I'm also a fan of Gipi's work, reading it is like watching one of those movies where it doesn't make grand statements or is particularly showy. But it's a movie that's more contemplative and showcases the lives of the characters in it. The art style probably isn't the most widely palatable either, but I really like it. There's a raw energy to it that fits the characters well.

So long story short, I'm not trying to have the most jaw-dropping art in the world, I know my limits of what I can and can't do within my lifespan. I just want to make a good story with art that complements it and I feel I am capable of that with what I can do right now with my skills.

[BloodOgre]

At the end of the day, non-abstract art is very pragmatic everything we do in art that isn't abstract comes from a place of realism in some form. I'm not asking or saying that people sacrifice their creativity for the sake of being better, a lot of times studies can and will kill that sense of fun and self expression if gone about the wrong way.

[BloodOgre]

There's also the fact that this guy's art is great, guaranteed you'd dock some points, if this guy's gesture, proportion and lighting were off, but those aspects of the art are great and he's incorporated a sketchy style into it because he's learned those fundamentals fairly well. I'm not talking super rendered and polished art to be great, just an understanding of a few fundamentals can make your art pop.

As far as writing goes, that's a different subject that is probably way more complicated than practicing fundamentals artwise. There's a lot more planning on top of that, another reason why making comics independently is such a disciplined hobby/profession if taken seriously.

What limits? With your work ethic you can be godlike.

[joannekwan]

Eh, just don't wanna.
I'm not the most driven of people. Like I see this one person in one of my circles do as you said, take a month off, go back to fundamentals (since they never took formal art classes), and they've grown a lot. Me, I can't drive myself like that. I would burn-out too quickly. I can only do it in do or die situations, like for a grade, or immediate money.

I'd rather do things my own pace.
I see everything I produce as a step forward. I leave experimenting to my stand-alone illustrations and those have gotten better in my eyes especially looking at my past art summaries. I mean, every day that I draw I AM still practicing the fundamentals, implementing all that I've learned and a lot of it has gone into my subconscious; like how to make things flow or make a panel more dynamic compositionally. It's second nature. I'm just not actively seeking to learn or study a particular subject at the moment.

[BloodOgre]

Thanks for your great replies!

[fleohr]

I have seen lots of very good artists making comics, but most of them deleted/are on hiatus, because of the struggle to make the story interesting. Or even keep going with a veeeery slow pacing trying to maintain the quality of the art, but this way the story gets boring and readers can get frustrated... That's why if you want to have consistent updates, you have to drop the quality and leave the good art for patrons/comissions

When I'm working on a webtoon, I usually start writing the plot before thinking of drawing my OCs, then after writing lots of events and a good prologue (after lots of research about the idea I had), I start some experiments to find an art style that I think matches with the story and genre, only after I find it that I start drawing profiles and panels. It does take lots of time and patience, especially for those who are still learning how to draw humans...

[SleepingPoppy]

but style should be the very last thing on the list.

Why? Obviously if you're in a life drawing class and ask to do a drawing from life, that's not the time and place for style. But nothing about studying precludes one from also drawing whatever nonsense they want. I think this way of thinking discourages young artists.

Like, would you tell a ten year old trying to draw in the style of her favorite cartoon that she should only be drawing from life? How many great artists were inspired from anime and used that as a jumping off point to become better?

I've been told by a stranger on the internet (as a high school student) that I needed to stop drawing in my style and learn my fundamentals instead. Totally ignoring that I was in art class, pursuing art classes, and doing plenty of life drawing in RL. You know who has never questioned my personal drawings? My art teachers.

Support what artists are passionate about so they love drawing, and maybe they'll want to do those studies and become better.

So it begs the question of why focused practice isnt brought up more as well.

I feel like it's brought up occasionally? And I actually think art fundamentals are brought up more often then style. Though I can't say I've ever counted or kept track, that's just my impression from frequenting the forums. There's also a number of topics that focus specifically on the art of crafting a comic, as that's it's own very challenging beast and tends to be something universal in a community of people trying to make comics. (The Nitty Gritty Tips threads were great, and I hope there's more in the future!)

[punkarsenic]

i dont know what youre trying to say here?

[BloodOgre]

Style at the end of the day is breaking the rules of fundamentals for your own signature mark. I'm glad you brought up cartoons, because they break most fundamental rules but the most prominent one is anatomy. Popeye for instance, his forearms are the biggest part of his body. This is a stylistic choice. In anime they distort the face completely in way for style. Why wouldnt I tell a ten year old to draw from life instead of cartoons? It will help them way more than learning their anatomy and proportions from anime and cartoons. When we think about great artists we think about Leonardo Da Vinci who as a child only did life drawing, now granted it was basically all he had to draw, but the proof is in the pudding on why he got to be so stellar. Look this topic is only an argument towards working in a different way than you would normally to progress faster, you'll progress either way, but one is a lot slower than the other. I get it. Studies are often boring and not what you would like to be doing for sure, I only speak about this because I know there is growth in discomfort especially in drawing.

Another thing, most highschool art teachers arent gonna really go into fundamentals it's highschool. Sure they'll touch on it lightly, but highschool art classes in general are more about exploration of mediums and adhering to projects. The nitty gritty stuff like anatomy, values, form studies, how light works, construction, proportion, color theory, composition, etc all gets touched on lightly each year. But they never go in real depth, because at the end of the day it's highschool. Highschool is meant to let you dip your toes in subjects. Your highschool teachers can only critique your work so much.

Industry professionals and various art books by people at the top of their field pour over fundamentals.

[BloodOgre]

Ah I misread what you were saying. What I should have said was, it's a really pragmatic approach. To put it simply, first you learn the rules of art (fundamentals) then you break them(style). There are undeniable issues in people's work when they break the rules by jumping to style out of the gate like everyone usually does. I.e. they learn to draw faces from anime art or cartoons. They learn from an artist that has processed their own view of something irl instead going after the real thing and studying it.

This process of learning fundamentals doesnt have to be unfun either on that note.

[punkarsenic]

look, i agree that you should learn the rules before you break them. but i also disagree that people have to go through a whole picasso arc, mastering the fundamentals, before they stylise. you can parallel run. you can work on cartoon styles while also doing life studies.

and i agree, learning the fundamentals can be a lot of fun. i love life drawing, i love doing studies. but i cant just do studies until i reach some level of quality, and then stylise - id never stylise. id just keep working and working and never find my own unique angle.

when you place a 'you need to be x good at y' barrier on getting started on just doing it, you discourage a lot of people from ever doing it. not because getting there is boring or painful, but because theyll always be stalling themselves with the belief they need to get better at z and get better at w before they can even try.

EDIT: also, im not sure if youre aware that youre coming across as kinda condescending? i understand that when your eyes are first opened to the fundamentals, it can kinda feel like everyone elses eyes are glued shut. but youre talking to people who get what youre talking about, and (certainly in joanne's case) might even know more than you.

[BloodOgre]

Nah this is just a controversial subject in the art community is all. I wanted to talk about it, I'm not trying to be condescending just trying to have a discussion. But maybe I should just stop here, because this is getting gradually more and more hostile.

[punkarsenic]

im sorry if i came across as hostile, ill check that, but you have been coming across as condescending, so check that as well.

thing is, i dont think it is a controversial subject. i think there are people who dont see the value in fundamentals, but those people are new and will learn, and theyre not actually the majority.

that said, it is an issue that a great many art schools these days dont teach the fundamentals, or much practical at all. for the price of art school, i think thats bullshit.

[Kura]

Well comic are a lot more than art especially when you're doing it on your own like most web-comic artists are. There are more than just art fundamentals that need to be learned, as for me art is not the most important thing that the comic should be focusing on. Anything tied to readability should be the main focus, and these things can be tied in both art and writing. Typesetting, story-boarding, layout, flow and producing pages or episodes at consistent scheduled are going to be the biggest thing you want to focus on when coming to comics, because that's what determines if readers can easily read your comic.

As for art fundamentals, yes, they are important and you should know them before starting and improve them gradually when you can, but also I don't think that should stop you trying to make a comic? As everything is a learning process, so why not start as soon as you can and improve as you go?

I also don't think that the majority of artists are ignoring them, comic artists in general just have so many process to go through, many of which are also in the learning process, so the progress is slower depending on where it is on the list of priorities.