I heard something about 'Dead Subs'

[michaelson]

I kinda wonder... Do I need to feel bad for using subbing as some kind of tbr pile? Wouldn't it be better for Tapas then if we had a feature that would serve exactly that purpose – only without adding dead subs? Is that something the team might consider, @michaelson?

Hm, readers can always bookmark a series using their preferred browser instead of adding a series to their library. Having a different subscription based feature doesn't really make a lot of sense to me since it over complicates the process.

[keii4ii]

Hm, readers can always bookmark a series using their preferred browser instead of adding a series to their library. Having a different subscription based feature doesn't really make a lot of sense to me since it over complicates the process.

I don't have a horse in this race, and I don't feel super strongly either way. But just offering some points from the other side of the fence:

• "People can always bookmark it" defeats the point of Tapas for some folks. The whole point of using this platform is everything is built in. And unlike bookmarks, subscriptions notify you of updates, reminding you that hey, this comic you are interested in exists.

• Readers may not be aware how much dead subs hurt the comic's visibility. They may not be aware there's ANY negative effect.

• For some creators, dead subs can feel extremely discouraging. Even if the staff decides not to make any changes to address it, I do wish you guys understood this more, and communicated your understanding. "We get you, but despite serious effort, we've been unable to find an elegant solution" is meaningful. "Why are you even complaining about this???" is alienating and dismissive. (Not saying you're saying the latter, just giving a very clear example)

[michaelson]

"People can always bookmark it" defeats the point of Tapas for some folks.

I think the important part is "for some folks"; we're talking about implementing a system that attempts to standardize reading behavior when reading behavior and publishing behavior vary significantly. Some readers check-in daily, other readers check-in weekly, some readers check-in once a month. It's almost impossible to track this type of behavior and add any type of weight to that in our currently existing algorithm.

For some creators, dead subs can feel extremely discouraging. Even if the staff decides not to make any changes to address it, I do wish you guys understood this more, and communicated your understanding. "We get you, but despite serious effort, we've been unable to find an elegant solution" is meaningful. "Why are you even complaining about this???" is alienating and dismissive. (Not saying you're saying the latter, just giving a very clear example)

We do understand this and have made adjustments to the algorithms to be more accommodating over time. I'm not really a fan the way this is framed. While you're pointing out that you're not accusing me of being alienating or dismissive, you highlight an example that is incredibly alienating and dismissive for reasons that are beyond me.

I got tagged in this topic, and tried to clarify on alternative options or reasoning behind not building a requested feature. Again, the difficulty in all of this is creating a platform that is able to highlight and surface series that is indicative of what people are reading and engaging with in the present moment. While it is a far cry from being perfect and unable to take into account subject qualifications (such as quality of comments), we are actively trying to make improvements that aren't aimed at punishing creators.

While I am hesitant to disclose further information on how the algorithm functions, inactive subscribers does not negatively penalize creators to an extent that we should be investigating alternative subscriber methods.

[therealbereth]

Thanks for taking the time to humor one of my spontaneous ideas, as always. xD

While I am hesitant to disclose further information on how the algorithm functions, inactive subscribers does not negatively penalize creators to an extent that we should be investigating alternative subscriber methods.

That's interesting! I wonder where the idea comes from, then, that dead subs hurt a series, algorithm-wise. If that's not the case, it really only leaves the factor of discouragement, and that hardly seems like something the team should be expected to assuage, considering that it's a very personal feeling for us.

[vothnthorvaldson]

From the "not [...] to an extent that...", I understand that it DOES hurt the series, but not significantly. From that, I would indeed guess that it means that having (or being!) a few random dead subs should not be too big of a worry. But I would also understand that strategies that produce a lot of dead subs should still be avoided, as the slight negative effect is likely additive.

[michaelson]

That's interesting! I wonder where the idea comes from, then, that dead subs hurt a series, algorithm-wise. If that's not the case, it really only leaves the factor of discouragement, and that hardly seems like something the team should be expected to assuage, considering that it's a very personal feeling for us.

I did mention in the past that doing sub4sub style promotions on the forums wasn't beneficial to getting a series on popular or trending since the algorithm does place a weighted value on active readers against the subscriber count. I think since that was some of the only information put out in regards to how the algorithm functions, people naturally placed a lot of emphasis on that aspect.

I should have at the time clarified that it doesn't penalize creators to that significant of an extent, that was my fault.

[keii4ii]

While you're pointing out that you're not accusing me of being alienating or dismissive, you highlight an example that is incredibly alienating and dismissive for reasons that are beyond me.

I know it's not what you are saying. I'm saying it can seem like that to some people. I see people talking shit about Tapas in other places, people taking extremely negative interpretations of anything the staff says or does, and it really bothers me every time I see it. While some of those people will never be pleased, I do believe there are ways to better communicate with the others.

I do apologize for using a harsh example (ironically while discussing better communication). Again, not saying that was what you said. If I thought that was what you meant to say, I would not be posting this. I'm here because I believe the Tapas staff in general mean well, and I want more people to recognize that. There are changes Tapas can make to that end, is what I'm trying to say.

[therealbereth]

Ah, then thank you for clarifying this now. :3

My conscience feels better already.

[ZombieOwl]

I don't think dead subs "hurt" a series, but they don't help them get views. If you've unlocked ad revenue and tipping, it's thanks to subs. Even if you have dead subs, your active subs will help you by reading and/or tipping occasionally.

I can imagine dead subs unsubscribing doing more damage (like, maybe you lose ads and tips?).

I've been a dead sub for a few series before. I talk to people in the forums or see an interesting "thank you" card on a profile, so I sub and check things out. If I'm not too interested, I'll stop reading and try again later to see how the story develops. If it's not what I'm into, that's when I unsub.

[skicoak]

since the algorithm does place a weighted value on active readers against the subscriber count.

If an active reader has a positive affect on the algorithm, then it's just word games to say inactive/dead subs don't "penalize" you. They might not represent a negative number in the equations, but it's just mathematically comparing zero to any positive number.

Because the algorithm has to be protected at all times, all we can do is interpret from the vague explanations of how it works.

[KRWright]

I was told by Tapas that number of subs versus likes, comments, etc. doesn't make a difference for Popular, which only takes into account activity on your work in the last 24 hours (but obviously, the more subscribers you have, or gain, in a period will also lead to more likes and views). So maybe this was true of the algorithm once, but I don't think it's as true now?

[OttoGruenwald]

I feel as if it depends on your personal case with tapas. Most of my views don't come from tapas users, so I get views above my sub count so I can effectively eat any dead sub vote in views from off-site users.

[skicoak]

Most of my views don't come from tapas users, so I get views above my sub count so I can effectively eat any dead sub vote in views from off-site users.

I'm not saying they are or they aren't, but you're assuming unsubscribed views count the same as subscribed views. Because the algorithm is a big unknown quantity, we don't really know. But you got to figure that the existence of an algorithm is to weigh stats to the site's benefit.

[OttoGruenwald]

You got a good point there.

[ivanskilling]

I'm relatively new to Tapas and so this is my first time hearing about dead subs. I was wondering about why the number of subs don't correspond to my chapter views too! I'm guessing they just binge read later.

I was wondering whether Tapas could actually improve their library organization though. Instead of having a separate submission system which I understand is overhead work, maybe just allow people to have two different folders in their library : active reading, and to be read.

[beta1042]

Lack of engagement really only hurts the series if you NEVER plan on reading it.

If you're the type who wants to read a series but you can't find the time right now, or even weekly, here is what you should do if you want to help the creator: Read it when you can. Then pick a high traffic time of day (like US time zones- Evenings) and go back and heart every episode in one go.

The sudden influx of hearts and views will push them up in ranks and the algorithms will boost their series to get more visibility.

[nostalgicroxas]

That's assuming you're an informed reader, or an informed creator. Honestly, I just pop in and read whenever I have the energy and time. If that's at 3am my time, then so-be-it. If that's a "poor" time for the algorithm I don't care. That's when I'm free.

Someone mentioned before that supposedly the system code pulls from only the most recent 24hrs. I think that's true and not... I think it's weighs 24hrs, past 7 days, and past 30 days or current month.

[beta1042]

I'm not saying you read it at a good time, I'm suggesting you hold off giving hearts until you build up a lot and then give them ALL at once ideally at a good time. I also said this is if you want to help the series. Y'know for the people saying they feel guilty for being a dead sub for so long, you can turn it around and still give them a boost in the algorithms.

[therealbereth]

That's such great advice, thank you for sharing. <3

Hearts and interaction have really helped me gain traction in trending more than once, and that was with just two or three active people! So I'm sure your observation holds true, no matter how little impact we think we have.

[Lucca_Vendramel]

If you wanna help, actually read the comics and like/comment on them. That's takes the algorithm's attention much more than subbing.