I made a video on why you should work for free (sometimes)

[skicoak]

Me not sure what you mean by publisher not seeing value either. Do difference in value not exist between bad writing and good writing? How about good writing and better writing?

When folks make the argument that writing can be just as time intensive as art... they always lean into the idea of extended amounts spent "crafting" the exact prose. This both discounts the idea of good/great writing occuring at a quicker pace...and that they're not artists much slower than average because of extended time also "crafting".

In terms of value to the publisher, say Random House contracts me to write a novel. The contract will be reflective of the quality/marketability of the novel... based on my previous efforts or pitch. They will NOT pay me MORE if I take longer to write it .

[vothnthorvaldson]

Intrinsic value =/= market value.

Intrinsic value is also difficult to estimate, while marker value is relatively easy to determinate at a time t.

Most of my favorite writers were very inefficient. I love reading their works, but I would not have hired them. It's very sad, but it's what it is.

Although if I had tons of money, I would totally be interested in large scale patronage, but that would not to pay for a result, but to provide to a creator the right environment to create, whatever the speed or the type of creation. It's a very different vision on my opinion.

[33rdCenturyCaveman]

They will pay you based on the quality of your previous efforts and however long it took to write them.

I'm not saying that prose writing is normally as time-intensive as illustration. You can pack a lot more information into a picture without worrying about audience fatigue. I'm saying that prose-writing can be as time-intensive as illustration because words allow for at least as much subtlety as images do.

[Cavechan]

It's a bit off topic, but not really. The universe my comic takes place in is our own but with fantasy elements in it. e.g., ancient aliens, but everything else would be the same so I did want to keep it as close as possible to reality.

I'm just not an expert so I did the best I could with what's available online. It was online for one chapter, so I felt what I had was sufficient for it. I can see how someone doing an entire story would have to spend longer and possibly consult experts though.

[vothnthorvaldson]

I should really read your story. I have it in my list of things to read and will eventually come to it. To be entirely honest, I first did not want to read it because the style of drawing is not my cup of tea; BUT in a year and a half in the webcomic community, my tastes expanded so much. That's one of the best things about drawing webcomics for me. How much we change when we know a bit how they are made. Also, seeing how styles that I associated with certain kind of stories are not anymore, because of the big reshuffling that does the webcomic community

[Kelheor]

peeking in the thread every half an hour to get adrenaline rush

[vothnthorvaldson]

I'm kind of lost. Why? (Candid question I swear).
It's not bad!? No one is insulting the other!?
It's just a normal discussion!?
Am I that Latin?

[Kelheor]

Nah, it's just kiiinda became the same thread artistsvswriters all over again You guys are doing great without insults, of course :з

Am I that Latin?

Also I do not understand this reference, sorry

[vothnthorvaldson]

Ah yes, you are EXPECTING some mess to occur

Well Latin people may have a bit of a blur between what's discussing and what's fighting Got quite the shock when I immigrated to Canada, and still, I grew up in the, more toned down, Germanic-influenced part of France (but have a Latin family culture on the other side).

[33rdCenturyCaveman]

It hurts my feelings when the people who work with words and pictures downplay the people who work with just words. Like writing isn't its own complete art form, or that it isn't capable of amazing things. If it seems easier or faster, there could be lots of other reasons for that. Don't dismiss people for whom "writer" is a core part of their identity.

[rajillustration]

Eh but in the case of comic book collaborations?

If you want to write slower and more methodically on your own terms, power to you, we all love books like that. But if it's a project with someone else, that's not your time anymore. I would expect my writer to write a lot faster than I draw (and personally I would expect them to write a lot faster than I can write, which is another story.) If you can't fit that budget, it will be hard to collaborate.

Which was the original point this thread was trying to make, the value of working with other people. Personal projects can take forever, but part of why buddy/buddy collaborations work, is if you can divvy up the workload and get polished work out faster than if you did it alone. We see a lot of cool comics where people have worked together, and since it's not in a professional publishing setting, they do informally share both hats. Authors doing artwork like storyboarding, color blocking, and polishing scans. Artists doing historical research, bouncing off ideas, and checking the spelling and stuff.

And honestly, the cost split would be done project to project anyway. It's not always 25%/75% author to illustrator, especially if the author is willing to do more than write.

[33rdCenturyCaveman]

And I disagree with none of those points.

[AVXP]

I knew we would get here- eventually. And I'm kinda glad we did.
a) All these arguments boil down to how many of each in the room. Get a lot of artists together and artists are the most important thing to a project. 'We can always "art our way" past the bad writing.'

b) Put a bunch of writers together and artists are a dime a dozen and easily replaceable.

c) The universe says- We can reuse a great story forever- in different mediums, for the current generation. Anyone think their comic book or art style is being used for webcomics today, but SOON! it shall be used for a grander purpose! -? Writers think like that.

d) Hourly rates are almost a moot and mute point. Who decides the rate? Ultimately, whoever is paying. When hours scale up or become too hard to reliable calculate, they switch to an exact fee for the work. No one lets your story/anecdote decide your pay. [see f further down]

e) You can easily 'story you way' out of any industry or viable reality. Every industry has a delivery rate. No matter what you want to do (hobby or living) there is an expected time frame- for all works considered. Any serious discussion has to assume that standard is being met.

f) Your research, years of training, experience, cost of tools, etc.....ALL OF THAT is WHY you are worthy of being PAID at all and has NOTHING to do with how much your work or time is worth. You value is determined and understood by how much MONEY is being made from the work(s) that's generated.

g) What goes here (instead of monetary compensation) is emotional satisfaction. There's no putting a price on that. By the way, that's also where exposure and 'for the fun of it' kicks in.

h) Exploitation is a 3rd party concept and never determined by those involved. You can agree to a contract and even negotiate and still be exploited in the end. It has nothing to do with feelings.

We're arguing because there is a fine line between g) and h).

[skicoak]

It hurts my feelings when the people who work with words and pictures downplay the people who work with just words. Like writing isn't its own complete art form, or that it isn't capable of amazing things. If it seems easier or faster, there could be lots of other reasons for that.

You're over thinking it mate.

One stop creators (artist/writers/ect.) are uniquely in a position to weigh in on workload balances in a comic's creation. Hell, I could attack the 50/50 formula just based on the devaluation of the art of lettering and the role of the letterer in the process. And I'm a GARBAGE letterer! But having to do it all the time, and understanding it's artistic value in the medium, I'm qualified to argue it's value in the process.

This industry is built on 5 stages of creation (Writing/Penciling/Inker/Colorist/Letterer). It's profoundly illogical to suggest Writer=Individual(s) executing the rest of the process.

If arguments against the 50/50 split make those who are only doing the writing feel undervalued...then they might want to flip that mirror around and address how they evaluate inkers, colorists, and letterers.

[SleepingPoppy]

It hurts my feelings when the people who work with words and pictures downplay the people who work with just words.

Where has anyone actually downplayed the artistic value of writing?

Like writing isn't its own complete art form, or that it isn't capable of amazing things.

Ski is specifically talking about the roles that go into making a comic. Not all writing verses all art.

If it seems easier or faster, there could be lots of other reasons for that.

There is a large degree of individuality to it, but on average, I think writing a script, in all its complexities, and I do agree there are complexities, is a faster process than completing the art for a comic. I also, and this is personal, think writing is way harder than drawing. This is because the drawing part comes more naturally to me, and has nothing to do with value at all.

I think you are assigning meaning to others words that isn't there. No one is arguing writing is a less valuable aspect to creation process. It's more about division of labor. And while I personally prefer a 50/50 split (depending on circumstances), I still think Ski's argument against it is completely valid and doesn't devalue writing?

[SleepingPoppy]

Get a lot of artists together and artists are the most important thing to a project.

Friendly reminder that the vast majority of comic creators on this forum are both writers and artists, yet are lumped into the "artist" category anyway! ^^

[nostalgicroxas]

g) What goes here (instead of monetary compensation) is emotional satisfaction. There's no putting a price on that. By the way, that's also where exposure and 'for the fun of it' kicks in.

I've been taught that even those artists/writers/creative people who "do it for the fun of it" should still not do it for free. If they are, they are communally devaluing their peers. ie if SakimiChan starts doing her commissions for free, suddenly her art style (that a lot of people have put effort into copying by the way) and other artists in her "tier" should, by extension, all do it for free. Or the people who "are good" do artwork for free because: they're bored, don't care about the money, have loads of free time, or these are just "crap sketches and not finished pieces so I don't care", are also the people who are devaluing their peers, by devaluing themselves.
I've seen an article that compared that last example to grocery store workers and the stuff drawn on their windows in washable markers. Someone has to draw that. And it can by done by "one time fee" or "you're an artist right? can you do this instead of the other parts of your job I hired you for?" And apparently, it happens more that it's "do this for free because you're an artist and we need it done" which equates to devaluing. If you as the artist refuse to do it for free, they just find someone else who's "an artist" to do it for free, so it gets done regardless.

[AVXP]

Are you actually saying WRITERS and ARTISTS or are you saying they write their own comic books?
There's a difference.
That combination is usually termed a cartoonist.

And if it was reversed, sure I'd agree that a writer who does their own book covers doesn't quite mean they are suddenly an artist. They would be a (full) artist who also does their own book covers.

So I think, unless you have writing outside of your comic book(s)...oh you get my point.

[nostalgicroxas]

Do cartoonists do the entire outline, dialogue, editing, and everything else that a lot of [solo comic creators on Tapas] do? Cause I don't recall that cartoonists do outlines and groundwork, or nitty gritty for their creations. Even mangaka/ect in Japan hire out work: you do cityscapes, you do houses and furniture, you do food and toning...

[SleepingPoppy]

So I think, unless you have writing outside of your comic book(s)...oh you get my point.

Cartoonist doesn't really convey the idea, though. My feeling is mainly that, in regards to comparing the act of writing a comic and drawing a comic, it makes sense to pay attention to the people who do both.