I want your Feedback: Collaboration Rules

[Jenny-Toons]

All I want to is advocate for a place where people can pitch ideas without feeling like they have everything figured out in advance because that is a tomb for creativity.

I argue that it's less about having a full idea out in the open and more about being completely honest with your intent.

Something along the lines of

"Hi there, I'm so-and-so. I have an upcoming idea for a fantasy-romance comic featuring dragons, princesses, and knights. I don't have a full plot fleshed out, but I do have some character sheets and written ideas here:
(shows example)
I've done work in mostly fantasy-romance, which can be found here: (show examples).
As of now, I'm just looking for someone to bounce off ideas with (fellow creator, anyone who likes fantasy-romance, etc). I don't really know if this will be a long-term collab or a short-term, but as of now, because the idea isn't fully developed, I would just like someone who is interested to talk about some concepts. Once we have a full idea, the idea of unpaid or paid will become a question."

I honestly feel a lot of these collabs go south because they leave people hanging. They expect everyone to be mind readers or to do to the dms, eager to hear more. But it's just easier to show what you have so far, what you've made so far, and be honest about your intentions, along with being reasonable.

Again, these aren't necessarily set in stone rules. It's less about filling out a form and more about people being able to look at your pitch and go "ok, I understand what you're selling" without needing to ask. Because, as you said before, most people just ignore it if they don't understand right from the start.

[Rasp]

I'd agree if it weren't for this line right here.

We will enforce this and any submission that doesn’t follow the basic structure, it will be automatically closed.

Enforce was Cains word not mine.

Have a space where these guideline are 'Enforced' and one where they are not. Once I have to worry about a 'guidelines enforcer' and have to dance around their approval then the pressure to have an answer to every question goes up considerably because its impossible to know where the line is. These guidelines are too broad so the safest course is to have all your ducks in a row because you don't wanna deal with the 'guidelines enforcer'

I know I don't. Don't need the extra stress if I'm not 100% behind my idea.

Let this be an opt-in program. Then nobody can complain if their post gets flagged

Let me decide if my stupid idea is worth the extra effort and worry about having a mod picking over my pitch.

By the nature of these loose rules not even the mods know truely what the line is and my judgement and theirs are almost certainly not always going to match up. I don't want to deal with that unless I'm SURE I have a killer idea and by that point I doubt I'll have much use for a collab thread.

[skicoak]

Let me decide if my stupid idea is worth the extra effort and worry about having a mod picking over my pitch.

Except for the fact that you're calling for a collaboration and owe any potential collaborators the courtesy of a marginally prepared pitch.

[GesuGesu]

Yup! I think you need to go to "browse categories" or something and toggle the switches. I don't quite remember

[Rasp]

There is a VAST difference between a marginally prepared pitch and what these guidelines suggest. I'd keep my marginally prepared pitches to the unenforced section and save my ready to rumble pitches for the enforcers to chew on.

I wouldn't risk posting a moderately prepared pitch under these guidelines. No WAY I'd be comfortable doing that. If I'm going to be judged its going to be something I'm prepared to show off. Not if there is a risk of failure involved. Having the enforcers breathing down my neck about the guidelines is definitely failure for a socially awkward person like myself.

[GesuGesu]

If you weren't going to be prepared to show off, then why propose a collab in the first place? The whole point of a pitch is to show off so you can attract collaborators...

All I sense is a lot of salt

[Rasp]

Because sometimes you have an idea and you're not 100% about it yet and you wanna see if anyone is interested in developing it. Why would you put all your time and effort into a project you aren't sure you have the team to actually put into motion?

why are you seeking collaborators if the project is already fully baked? why would anyone join a collab where most of the creative work is already done?

[skicoak]

All your suggestion of a unenforced categories does is guarantee the same horrible pitches have a place to go and keep doing the same ineffectual things they've been doing.

If the goal of having a collaboration thread is to facilitate future collaborations then the status quo has failed and flipped to actively discouraging them.

Let them try something differently.

[Rasp]

My last pitch was almost exactly like that and it has been going awesome. I got a damn fine artist on board and we are really close to being done with the whole thing. This system has worked great for me.

Would my pitch be found acceptable by the new guidelines?

Hell. No.

I've been thinking about developing a one-shot tie in to my GL Yakuza novel Azure Ink.. That would follow one The Phantom Thief Clover on her own mini-adventure probably relating to stealing an artifact known as the Emerald Mask. I have some ideas but I'm interested in developing the story with the artist so we can adjust the length of the project to make sure it gets completed. I was wanting to go with a tone that is fun, colorful and swashbuckler-y... Very sly cooper / Lupin the 3rd-esuqe. I…

Here it is for context. The stuff coming out of Dogness has been awesome and I'm more than willing to go to the mat for it.

[GesuGesu]

Why would you put all your time and effort into a project when you aren't sure you have the team to actually out into motion?

Because we as creators simply want to create, regardless of what stops us.

Why are you seeking collaborators if the project is already fully baked?

Because we want to see someone skillfully execute our idea for us, and getting someone to work with us takes a convincing, well-thought plan.

Why would anyone join a collab where most of the creative work is already done?

Because there are tired artists like me who just wanna draw without putting mental effort into thinking up story. The only reason I offer to draw for collabs is because I trust that I ONLY have to do my part as an artist, and nothing more.

[Rasp]

None of these are universals. They work for you. They don't work for me.

I don't create for the sake of it. I create to bring people joy, first and foremost. I wouldn't put so much effort in if it was just for myself.

If I'm making a meal for myself it'll be fine, I'll try sure. If I'm making a meal for others I'm going to put my best into it. Because I'm doing it for them.

I make comics for the people who enjoy reading them. I sure don't make them to make money.

I not only pay my artists I take their creative vision into account because my work isn't about me or my vision.

Ask Hufe, Ask Dogness. Hell I've got all the paypal receipts to prove I am not only serious I put my money where my mouth is.

[GesuGesu]

Then simply just follow the new collab guidelines since you want to do it for people, and don't let your personal grievances on new restrictions stop you from doing so.

It's only an extra step to the same thing you've always been doing.

[joannekwan]

But your opening post does follow the guidelines proposed.
Like it's not a bullet pointed/numbered list, but you gave an introduction, your project details, mentioned payment, what you're looking for, the length of the project, and your previous work.

Your collab post pretty much covered everything on the list Cain introduced.

[Rasp]

pff no it doesn't nor should it need to.

[joannekwan]

I literally had your post open in another tab and went down the numbered list here, check-marking everything you covered. But oh well.

[GamerPrincessXI]

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Comics should make people happy or mad or sad. Same with TV shows, movies and video games. I don't really care about the money aspect, either. That's why I kinda feel like why is there a need for money in the first place. I only did an unpaid collaboration once and it was horrible. Our communication was off. Plus we were using Discord. I don't like discord.

[GesuGesu]

At this point I don't know what's the issue since your collab posts were not particularly affected by this proposal in any negative way.

[skicoak]

My last pitch was almost exactly like that and it has been going awesome. I got a damn fine artist on board and we are really close to being done with the whole thing. This system has worked great for me.

Then you're one of the few exceptions, good for you.

It isn't working for the majority of people. In fact, people get giddy when they find out they can block the whole category.

The forum has been asking for changes for months now. There's been copious amounts of threads on the topic.

You're in the minority on thinking there's no need for change.

[Rasp]

I'm not saying there is no need. I'm suggesting a dual system instead of a flat replacement. So the dirty minority like myself who the old system works for can stay in the current garbage hole and there is a clean slate for this new enforced guideline section.

Everyone wins.

[skicoak]

Everyone wins.

No, they don't .

They only thing that wins is bad pitches...they get to keep on ignoring even the most basic guidelines. Creating the same problems with impunity, just in a special new section.